Talk:Seamus Heaney/Archive 1

Seamus Heaney Centre for Poetry

Seamus Heaney Centre for Poetry @ Queens University Belfast

http://www.qub.ac.uk/heaneycentre/index.htm

forum 4 http://forumfour.proboards43.com/index.cgi forum 4 - poets - writers - playwrights - screenwriters

Fair?

The comment added to end the Doire/other name for derry dispute is unfair because it sounds as though he only calls it Derry because he is a Nationalist and that Derry is not the name of the place.The name is , of course, Derry.--Play Brian Moore 16:05, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that's right. According to United Kingdom law, its official name is Londonderry. I assume that Wikipedia recognises that United Kingdom law prevails in Northern Ireland and will do so unless and until Northern Ireland democratically and legitimately secedes from the United Kingdom. Of course, it is the right of anyone, from Londonderry or not, to call it Derry, just as Kingston upon Hull is often called Hull, but that doesn't make either Derry or Hull the real name. Poetlister 16:36, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Have to agree with Poetlister on this one. We all like to call it Derry but the official position is clear. Nice pic though Poet :) --216.52.22.131 09:15, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Here I know that no matter what I say I'm wrong becaus I'm a Fenian but is the City of Derry not called Derry.That being the place that nationalist Mr.Heaney is from.--Play Brian Moore 23:00, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually, he's from the county, which under the compromise reached at Talk:Derry is under County Londonderry in Wikipedia. That said, I have no objections to either "County Derry" or "County Londonderry" being used in this article, either one is fine by me. Demiurge 10:12, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Exactly right, but the compromise concensus for "Londonderry" should be used in this and other articles unless a different concensus emerges. --216.168.230.197 17:06, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

well An Daingean is the real name of Dingle agreed by the Irish Government but wiki has chosen to overlook The Facts.Derry is a far more common name and Seamus is a Catholic Nationalist so it really should be called Derry.--Play Brian Moore 00:42, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

According to United Kingdom law, its official name is Londonderry. Well according to Irish law, Dingles official name is An Daingean but wiki has named the article in relation to this town to Dingle because it is far more common. Derry is also far more common so it should be used in this article. I can change Dingle back to an Daingeann if you wish. Also Heaney is a Catholic Nationalist so his article should have derry in it.--Play Brian Moore 19:49, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Two wrongs don't make a right. It may be the case that Dingle should be called something else. Is that any reason to have the wrong name for Londonderry? Poetlister 19:53, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

it is'nt wrong. City is Derry and Derry is a far more common name. He is a Catholic,Nationalist. He would have it as Derry. Let the baby(me) have his botle(derry).--Play Brian Moore 20:06, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I have to agree with Play Brian Moore, I feel that Heaney as a republican would have prefered Derry and not the anglo alternative. Let the bottle have his baby. Tunney 21:26, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Reverts

Guys, discuss this out like adults and come to a consensus. Have a poll if you like. File an RfC. But stop the reversions or I'm going to protect the article. -- Essjay · Talk 01:47, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Vote for Londonderry. Seeing this dispute with (I hope) an unbiased mind, I realise its potential for raising emotions. However, surely the issue regarding this article is consistency within Wikipedia. It has been agreed that the relevant Wikipedia article should be called County Londonderry, not County Derry, so all cross-references should reflect this. If anyone feels that County Londonderry or other articles are mis-named, this should be debated on their talk pages, not here. I am intrigued that Mr Swine seems to claim that he made his edit under personal "orders of Seamus Heaney" himself. It would be fascinating to see the documentary evidence for this. 86.134.163.2 11:31, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Vote for Londonderry. I entirely agree with the previous User, except that my compromise suggestion seems to have been lost. Happy to reinstate it if people want. Poetlister 14:36, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Vote for Derry/Doire. It is far more common name than the other one. Mr.Heaney is a Catholic, Nationalist. He would have it as Derry. If it is kept as L'Deery, I will change the name of Dingle article to An Daingeann.--Play Brian Moore 15:55, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't care what we call the place so I'm not voting, but Mr. Swine, could you please read WP:POINT? Demiurge 16:12, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Vote for Londonderry: So, Mr. Swine, why don't you also threaten to alter Dublin to Baile Átha Cliath and Michael Collins to Micheál Ó Coileáin? That would show some consistency. And Mr. Swine, don't forget to alter the Londonderry Air to the Derry Air. 204.155.226.9 21:04, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Vote for Londonderry, in line with previous concensus reached, and for consistency with other WP articles as previously noted. Mr Swine / Fenian Swine / Brian Moore / Muc Fíníneach, whoever you are, you do need to read WP:POINT as Demiurge suggested. --204.196.142.41 11:44, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

because Michael Collins was not baptised Micheál Ó Coileáin you genius and the Irish government has not changed Dublin's name as yet but they did change dingle to an Daingeann. You people really are too smart for your own good. Ever heard of PR. There are far more british wikipedians here than Irish which makes this vote useless. Also for anyone who is confused, I am one user Fenian Swine with the nickname Play Brian Moore. That seems fairly clear or does it?--Play Brian Moore 19:50, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Also - Can ip user votes be counted?

More importantly, can sockpuppet votes be counted? Looks like Mr Tunney is a sockpuppet of Mr Swine - read their edits to this page and the edit history of these users, language, interests etc. It looks like Mr Tunney has been brought out of retirement for this debate. See also the newly created Category:Irish Republican Wikipedians [1] where he then adds himself and Mr Tunney on their respective user pages: [2] [3][4] [5] --204.196.142.41 06:43, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

that dosent answer my question. I think you will find that david or Davetunney had an account before me so he could'nt be my sockpuppet. Anyway i cant seem to find your user page mr.ip user so create one or stop.--Play Brian Moore 19:30, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Vote for Doire/Derry As per above Tunney 21:26, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Mr Swine: Why do you call Michael Collins Micheál Ó Coileáin on your User page? Either you prefer that name, or at least think that he did (so you should rename the article) or you don't (so you should amend your user page). The Wikipedia article on Dublin says "Baile Átha Cliath (or simply Átha Cliath) and Dubhlinn are the two names of the city, the former being the one currently in official use." If that's wrong, please amend the article. As a matter of interest, who is the Brian Moore you refer to? The English rugby player? The English sports commentator? Or the anti-Catholic novelist? Poetlister 21:51, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

The novelist probably wins because he once said that Ireland was "a nation of masturbators under priestly instruction." Incorrect, of course, but I think it's a toss up between all 3 :)) --204.196.142.41 06:54, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

sorry your wrong again.Dublin's official name is Dublin. Its Irish name is Baile Átha Cliath but that is not its official name according to the Irish government who I think control Dublin. I have every right to call Michael Collins what I like but he was not baptised Micheál Ó Coileáin so it's not his name. Do you you understand that? It seems basic to me! Finally Brian Moore is the English soccer commentator who commentated on the Ireland, England game at the European soccer championships in 1988, a game which Ireland won 1-0 thanks to a Ray Houghton{scottish) goal. On fantasy football league(which is also mentioned on my user page) frank skinner(an English person who I like.SHOCK!HORROR!) and david badiel did a skit of the goal with Ray. As the skit begins Ray Houghton says the line 'Play Brian Moore' and Brian Moore's commentary begins. They released a dvd in 2005 and this skit is on the dvd. If you wish to buy it it costs about 20 punt or Irish pounds, if you will.--Play Brian Moore 19:27, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

So the Wikipedia article on Dublin is wrong? Will anyone correct it? And where can I get any "punt or Irish pounds" now Ireland uses the Euro? Poetlister 21:36, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

where did I say the article on Dublin is wrong. They still accept punt in my local potato shop.<sarcasm> When did they bring in the euro?<sarcatic question> Do they use euro in Derry?<sarcastic question> Also you can get them in the Central Bank of Ireland on College Green in special books. Are you happy enough with Brian Moore explanation? You seem to be running out of intelligent questions: ). You people are all the same.--Play Brian Moore 21:43, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I quoted the Wikipedia article on Dublin. It says "Baile Átha Cliath (or simply Átha Cliath) and Dubhlinn are the two names of the city, the former being the one currently in official use." Thus according to the article, Dublin is not now the, or even an, official name. Mr Swine, however, says that Dublin is the official name. I leave others to judge whether or not this disagreement with the article amounts to a statement that the article is wrong. And just for the record, David Badiel prefers to call himself David Baddiel. Poetlister 22:23, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Im sorry about my disgracefully illiterate spelling attempt. Its funny i thought the people of county londonderry preferred to call their county Derry but foreign governments have decided against that. Also the opening line of the Dublin page is Dublin (Irish: Baile Átha Cliath1),is the capital and largest city of the Republic of Ireland. Where does it say anything about Dubhlinn being the official name.--Play Brian Moore 22:33, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Read footnote No 1 Brian Fenian Swine, it's there. Baile Átha Cliath (or simply Átha Cliath) is said to be the one currently in official use, not Dubhlinn - cheers. --Meiers Twins 07:52, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Vote for Londonderry We have to use Mumbai, Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka, and so on, as the new names, so let's use Londonderry until such time as the Irish win it back from the British. The article makes it quite clear that Heaney would call it Derry, nevertheless that is a separate point. Perhaps we could refrain from abuse in the discussion while we're at it? I want to see both sides put their accusations of masturbation verifiably beyond use. Brequinda 10:09, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

It refers to the county and not the city, hence Londonderry is the accurate name, at the moment. Not that the county exists in an administrative sense, mind... --Kiand 22:08, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

"County Londonderry" (do not count this as a vote - its foregone, by article name) was the legal name of the county during its existance as an administrative county until 1973 in Northern Ireland, currently the ceremonial county, County Londonderry also exists. I am inclined to agree with Demiurge on this one, wikipedians should not raise matters just to prove a point - the article naming of City of Derry and County Londonderry are foregone conclusions and wikipedians should respect this. It is sufficent to point to the fact that Heaney was born in County Londonderry, as for the city, thats a different matter and has being voted for on Talk:Derry many times. Djegan 22:27, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm not disputing the fact that NI is part of the UK(for now). And that the UK has named the county L-Derry. All I'm saying is that if Mr.Heaney was to write an autobiography he would call his home county Derry, as he did in his nobel prize acceptance speech. For example it says Derry on the Martin McGuinness page and I assumed this is because he is Nationalist and he would call his home county Derry also.

Please do not attempt to present the city and county as one - that is unhelpful and disengenous - because you and I know the difference (i assume your irish, like me), whilst others do not. And by all means quote his acceptance speach verbatim. Djegan 22:51, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Seamus Heaney, December 7th, 1995 when I was the eldest child of an ever-growing family in rural Co. Derry. This was retreaved from here. BTW, I am Irish from Baile na nGábhair as stated on my user page. Also I never attempted to present the city and county as one.--Play Brian Moore 22:58, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Vote for Londonderry The county article is County Londonderry, the city article is Derry, with appropriate redirects to each. Seems to me that the status quo is a balanced compromise. The point is also made in the article that Heaney himself regards it as County Derry, though the wording could do with a bit of tweaking to distinguish between city and county. --Meiers Twins 08:07, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Londonderry. There are a lot more articles referencing the city and the county than this one, so it is not reasonable to open up the Derry/Londonderry naming dispute again without an exceptionally good reason, which this isn't. We have an uneasy truce that the city shall be Derry and the county shall be Londonderry. There is equality of misery (and happiness but, hey, this is Ireland so we'll ignore that) on both sides. It's a compromise. It's not perfect. But it allows us to get along without resorting to the armalite again. --Red King 12:15, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

There is equality of misery (and happiness but, hey, this is Ireland so we'll ignore that) on both sides. Actually it is british people who are argueing against me so this is no Irish Civil war or anything. It is called Derry by Irish people. Anyway does no one agree that if Mr.Heaney calls it Derry then it should be called Derry on his page here?--Play Brian Moore 15:58, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually I am Irish and think that your are fighting a loosing and pointless battle and moreover I support the status quo of "City of Derry" and "County Londonderry". You should find better things to do than posturing on naming, if Irish editors supported your claim they would line up to support you. Djegan 17:44, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Wow!! a whole one Irish person(s) supports the wrong name.The only reason peole don't line up to support me is because I have a bad name around this community. Many people find me ignorant and abusive and they would not like to be seen to be supporting me. But I think any normal Irish person knows thtat I'm right but they won't want to upset any british wiki goers. It's Derry. Thtat is what is used by all people in their conversations about Derry. Does anyone have any comment on the fact that Seamus calls it Derry himself?--Play Brian Moore 22:54, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Make that two. And I could call Dublin "Arseville" and it still wouldn't end up being the term used on an article about me. The CITY is Derry, the COUNTY is Londonderry, and thats the way it always has been on here, and thats the way its going to remain. --Kiand 07:34, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Personallly, I think that the City Derry, County Londonderry is a silly compromise cooked up to "please" two conflicting POVs. However, there is a consensus of sorts behind it, so in the interest of keeping conflict out of this place, it's best to go with the flow. Filiocht | The kettle's on 08:28, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm another. But as a way forward, if FW/PBM can find a Heaney text to quote, where he (Heaney) uses the term "County Derry", then nobody sensible is going to revert that. But the surrounding text will stay as County Londonderry becuase that's the only way we avoid a permanent revert war. --Red King 10:22, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Fenian Swine, are you surprised that, in your own words, you "have a bad name around this community" and many people find you "ignorant and abusive"? You have been banging on about this since 8 September. It must be clear to you by now that there is no concensus in support of your suggestion. We don't win all arguments in life, please learn from this, it is time to move on now, please. --204.196.142.41 20:08, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Nah I dont trust ip user's who vadilise user pages and are'nt from Ireland. Heaney used Derry in his Nobel Prize speech as I already showed . Im afraid I cant learn from this. Im too much of a stubborn c*nt. Also Kiand it wont always be the wrong way. Paisley dies, IRA comes back, Ireland unites and county Derry is rightfully renamed. Your a GDA anyway.--Play Brian Moore 22:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm not. I live here, I'm from Donegal, which is a hell of a lot more Ulster than most of the people on here who push POV, and indeed, than you. --Kiand 22:35, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

<redacted>. Which part of Donegal is Maynooth in then?--Play Brian Moore 22:48, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I say from because I've lived here way too long to bother putting an explanation in, thats why. What part of Northern Ireland is Goatstown in then? Or are you one of these people who 'wants it back' despite never having even been close to it? --Kiand 22:51, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Goatstown is'nt in The North. Its in Dublin, you know the capital of the Republic of Ireland .never tried to claim I was from Ulster(9 counties). Sorry Iif I don't like Brits in my country. Honestly I could'nt be more sorry if I tried.--Play Brian Moore 22:55, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

You used a term implying a Dublin or Dublin suburban resident in a perogative sense to attempt to dilute one of my arguments, as if you yourself did not fall under one of those banners. Thats pretty similar to claiming you're not from the area in question. --23:02, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Difference is that you claimed to be from Ulster(9 counties). I never did. All I did was show that you say you are from Leinster on your user page not Ulster.Kapish.--Play Brian Moore 23:08, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

• FS, you've been talking to yourself again on your other talk page. Is Tunney coming to help you with the same stale arguments and abusive edit summaries? Give it up and let's move on. --204.196.142.41 06:49, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

What are you on about. David Tunney is not me .Are you stupid or just ignorant. Check ip address' and you will see he is not me. He lives near me, I know him but that does not make me him. And my arguments are world class. A lot of my good questions have not been answered, they have been overlooked. Anyway what does all this have to do with Irish Fenian, Seamus Heaney?--Play Brian Moore 10:06, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

FS, I am both stupid and ignorant, but much is now clear. You are either the same person or a school buddy of his, both being 15 yrs old, with similar and co-ordinated posts. Apologies for the "West-Brit" stance, but the name County Londonderry will remain with the status quo here on Wikipedia. Your only valid argument is that Heaney himself refers to the County as Derry; that is already reflected in the article. Your other questions have been fully addressed. Time to move on.

Have a nice day in Goatstown, and please stop abusing and insulting the WP community. I wish you well in your endeavours, however short lived they may be. --204.196.142.41 21:17, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Right so then we are clear that Im not Tunney. BTW Im 16 not 15. Also where did I abuse and insult the WP community.--Play Brian Moore 22:22, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Protected

Obvously "stop the reversions or I'm going to protect the article" wasn't clear enough. Fine; it's now protected. Unless another admin intervenes, it will remain protected for seven days while this poll continues. At the end of that time, I will, as an otherwise uninvolved admin, tally consensus, unlock the article, and set the article to the consensus version. (For my convenience, please put your votes in bold, so there is no confusion. Sockpuppets and IP addresses will be disqualified, with the exception that IP addresses that have previously contributed significantly to the article will be counted unless there is reason to believe they are sockpuppets. Do not, for any reason, change, strike, or otherwise alter any votes on this page. If you do so, your vote will be discounted, and you will be blocked for vandalism.) Anyone, on either side, who reverts from the consensus version will be blocked for vandalism. -- Essjay · Talk 13:53, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Irish wikilink

Since the page is currently blocked and I'll undoubtedly forget to fix it later: in the opening sentence Irish is linked to. This is undesirable as Irish is a disambiguation page, so I would like it changed to [[Ireland|Irish]]. Cheers, --Commander Keane 08:44, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

• Done.--Commander Keane 09:27, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Séamus vs. Seamus

Can anyone get an authoritive source for the spelling as Heaney uses it? Djegan

Hi, Sorry about the delay in getting back. I did a Google Images search for his name and your suspicion was correct. He signs his name without the fada so I've changed it back. http://www.soypoeta.com/imagenes/librodevisitas/heaney-seamus/firma.jpg http://www.purplehousepress.com/sig/heaney.jpg http://www.kennys.ie/News/WritersAuction/13_postscript.jpg El Gringo 15:49, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

References

Any chance of the editors here adding some more references and even citations if possible? It's a good article but definitely needs to be viewed as verifiable - references would give it that. Good work though. Cheers SeanMack 15:36, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

His languages

So...he has written in English, Gaelic and Anglo-Saxon, right?

Gaudio 16:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Irish.--Play Brian Moore 01:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

He did a translation of Beowulf... -- the GREAT Gavini 07:15, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

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References

My recent edits

Hi all! I saw a prompt to discuss my changes on the talk page first, so here is my explanation for changing Heaney's residence from "Londonderry" to "Derry" - he is referred to as being from Derry in the biography sections of Opened Ground and District and Circle. This leads me to believe that he considers himself a Derryman. As the subject labels himself from Derry, so should the encyclopedia article about the man follow suit. In addition, not that the Nobel Prize Committee is any sort of authority on Irish geography, his biography there indicates that he is from Derry (please see the site here). I provide this link to further support my statement that Derry is what Heaney himself identifies with. Also, as he currently resides in Dublin, I'll be adding that into the intro as well. Cheers! gaillimh^{Conas tá tú?} 05:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Stating on the talk page that you are going to go against the consensus, then making such a controversial edit without waiting for a reply, is scarcely a discussion.--Poetlister 10:48, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi! I believe that you have misread my above post. I never stated that I was planning on disregarding consensus. I was simply providing my detailed, concise, and factual rationale for tweaking the intro. Also, I noticed that you reverted my entire recent contributions to the article. If you took the time to look a bit more closely into what you were reverting, you'd see that I also edited the article for diction, as well as properly formatting the references section, and also removing a bit of unsourced content per WP:BLP. As I've provided rationale for my tweaking the name, the most glaring of which is that Heaney himself identifies as a Derryman, I am going to reinstate my edits. gaillimh^{Conas tá tú?} 22:29, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Mind you looking at the categories their truely is an excess and duplication of categories, a very good study case. Djegan 13:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment from a UCD IP address

County Derry is very obviously the correct name for the entity on historic grounds and on grounds of common usage.

The name 'County Londonderry' is a silly campaign by which Wikipedia has allowed itself to be hoodwinked, the city being the only entity about which there is any genuine debate.

Also - the article 'Derry-Londonderry' seems to indicate that 'County Londonderry' is thirty miles - take a look at a map folks - northwest of Belfast; quite ridiculous.

Those so strongly inclined to argue for 'County Londonderry' might at least have checked where it was...... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.1.172.138 (talk • contribs)

I would argue that Londonderry is also in common usage for the city.. and therein lies the crunch. That is why, by consensus, we agreed to name one region (the city) Derry and the other region (the county) Londonderry.

Historically, the city was renamed as Londonderry because of the input of the London Companies to the place. The county name followed suit, from what I remember (having been previously called County Coleraine). One aspect of the city has been renamed as Derry in recent years, largely due to the actions of Sinn Féin I believe.

As for the Derry-Londonderry article.. while I've not looked at it, I'm sure that many people have added their input to the article who are not "strongly inclined to argue for" County Londonderry. Therefore it is a nonsense to accuse solely those of one particular aspiration in this particular regard as being those who are guilty of some kind of error in regard to the distance between it and Belfast.

If there is such an error, I'd suggest you fix it instead of complaining about it. --Mal 07:15, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't bother.--Play Brian Moore 19:21, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Stations

This article lists "Stations" a 1975 text published by Ulsterman Publications in Heaney's bibliography. I think there might be some confusion here, as there is a poem he wrote in 1975 called "Stations of the West" and a critical essay written by someone whose name escapes me at the moment called "Stations: Seamus Heaney and the Sacred Sense of the Sensitive Self." I'm pretty sure that this article is referring to the former reference (there's also "Station Island", of course), but I'm not sure it merits inclusion, as it is a singular poem as opposed to a published collection. I'm going to remove it from the article (the Nobel Prize website doesn't list "Stations" as part of Heaney's bibliography either, for what it's worth. Also, I've been moving some of his articles to different titles (i.e. Seeing Things (Heaney) to Seeing Things (poetry)). The article can still be accessed from the original title by redirect, though. I've changed "Heaney" to "poetry" per WP:MOS. Cheers all Gaillimh 22:17, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

There was no confusion regarding "Stations". It is a rare collection of prose poems published in pamphlet form by Ulsterman Publications with ISBN 0903048043. Heaney has included several poems from this collection in his "New Selected Poems" as well as in "Opened Ground". Tomas, 4 April 2007 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.114.187.19 (talk) 09:37, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Bibliography

The Poetry section of the Bibliography contains individual poems and collections of poems. I think a bibliography should mean 'books' and suggest removing entries like 'Blackberry Picking'. I suggest using the template {{cite book}}. I'll start implementing this in a few days unless persuaded otherwise. PeterGrecian 13:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I am removing three items from the bibliography: "Blackberry Picking", "Mid Term Break, and "Digging". My earlier edit was reverted because I did not cite a source. Indeed, there is no source available that explicitly states that Seamus Heaney has never published a book under any one of those three titles. Nor is there a source that explicitly states that Seamus Heaney has never published a book by the name "The Belfast Jive", or "The Pendulum and the Ashfork", or "The Flaxen-Haired Robber Baron". I can't disprove the existence of anything. Suffice it to say that the OLIS Library Catalogue (http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk/olis/) has no record of any such books published under Heaney's name, which it very likely would have had if such books existed. "Blackberry Picking", "Mid Term Break, and "Digging" are, however, names of poems from Heaney's first collection, "Death of a Naturalist". The bibliography should not include the names of every major individual poem of Heaney's, but rather the books in which he has collected them. Tomas, 4 April 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.114.187.19 (talk • contribs) 13:33, 4 April 2007

That's the sort of thing I was hoping for, thanks (though not necessarily in so much detail). Articles are constantly being vandalised, and edits that remove text with no explanation have to be treated sceptically. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 13:18, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The bibliography needs attention. Is there a Wikipedia policy on what a bibliography should normally include? Heaney has had a habit of first publishing his poems individually in magazines or in small groups in pamphlets with small print runs, after which he's collected a batch of them in bound volumes published by Faber & Faber and kept in print, after which he's gathered those regular volumes and pruned them into hefty collections. I suggest that we should either organize the bibliography according to publication type or delete the pamphlets from it (with the exception of Stations, discussed above). Tomasboij 15:20, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Categories

Heaney has been categorized as a Gaelic poet and as an Irish Gaelic poet. Please name at least one published poem written by Heaney in the Irish language. He has published an English version of the Irish Buile Suibhne, but that doesn't make him an Irish Gaelic poet any more than publishing two versions of Sophocles has made him an Ancient Greek poet. I will remove him from these categories unless somebody protests. Tomasboij 07:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Categories removed. Again, if somebody can produce one published poem by Heaney in Irish, then please do reinstate the categories. Tomasboij 00:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Unsympathetic?

What is the basis for this allegation?

Heaney has made comments on Northern Ireland and expressed a distinct lack of sympathy for the Protestant Unionist community there

He's clearly unsympathetic to Unionism as a political stance. That's quite a different thing. Unless this allegation can be substantiated it should be got rid of. Palmiro | Talk 23:47, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I've removed this allegation, as noone supported it. Palmiro | Talk 10:46, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Can we please put in SOMETHING about his political inclinations, though? This is obviously important to a number of people, but more importantly than that, many of his poems have a political undertone. ~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.220.155.120 (talk) 18:50, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Modernism

I would like to hear from whoever categorized Heaney as a Modernist in the infobox. It seems intuitively strange that he should belong to a movement that was already disintegrating by the time he was born. More importantly, the Modernists united in taking their refuge in formal experimenting in order to come to terms with technology, industry, individual alienation, frail psychology, and the horrors of war. I really don't see how it helps to classify Heaney as a kindred spirit of Apollinaire, Eliot, Woolf, and Kafka. Unless somebody can cite a source that discusses Heaney's work in relation to those or other Modernist writers, I'll remove it from the infobox. (See Modernist literature and Modernist poetry.) Tomasboij 16:38, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Information removed. Tomasboij 04:25, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation of name

Hope someone will provide (on the page of this entry, not here) phonetics for this name. I have heard "Shawmuss Hayney" (in my best attempt at phonetics) or "Shaymuss Hayney" or the same with Hayney->Heeney or the initial "S" in "Seamus" hissed instead of softened into "Sh". Thanks! Carrionluggage 00:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

His name, in the area he was born, would be pronounced something akin to "Shame-us Hee-nee". The natural way for a lot of English and Americans to pronounce his first name, might be "Shay-mus". Go with whatever flows. I can't imagine a situation whereby his surname would be pronounced "Hay-ney" to be honest. --Setanta 02:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Caveat: I've just realised that "shame" would probably be pronounced by an average Londoner as "shayme". I guess an equivalent of the first syllable would be vowels run together like this: "she-im" or "she-um". Hope that helps. --Setanta 02:45, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

What Essjay said

Can I please remind people of what Essjay said months ago: "Anyone who changes Londonderry to Derry may be reverted on sight and (Note to other administrators) should be blocked for vandalism. If this does not solve the problem, then the article will be protected again. Anyone who disagrees with my determination of the consensus should file a Request for Comment."--Poetlister 18:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I shall now implement Essjay's ruling; if anyone objects, please contact him. I shall also (per WP:BLP) delete the unsourced statement that he lives in Dublin.--Poetlister 17:56, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi! This comment, or "ruling", was made almost eighteen months ago and was made during an edit war after a poll where more unionists showed up than nationalists. As such, I have a hard time recognising it's applicability now. This issue isn't about unionism or nationalism, of course; it's about where Seamus Heaney lives. As he identifies as being from Derry, he is from Derry. As Heaney is Irish and has publicly identified as a Derryman, he lives in Derry. I think it's best to leave it as it is now (Londonderry), while we seek a proper venue for mediation. I am going to reinstate the bit about him living in Dublin, however (with a proper source, of course). gaillimh^{Conas tá tú?} 22:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

It may have been made during an edit war, but another edit war had again broken out. The notice on the article should at the very least have made those editing the article bring their intentions to the Talk page; it's disappointing that that wasn't what was done. You grossly oversimplify the Derry/londonderry issue, incidenatlly. My personal (rather strong) preference is to call it Derry, but that's irrelevant to what we say here. I have many Indian friends who deeply dislike the name Chennai, but that's not going to change what Wikipedia calls the place, which is its official name as decided by the Indian government.

Ah well, as a southern Protestant I call it Derry, but it's a pity that this complex and contentious subject has been allowed to flood this Discussion area, which should instead be about the life and works of Séamus Heaney. On that note, please see stanza II of Station Island, "I have no mettle for the angry role...I come from County Derry" Millbanks (talk) 14:00, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, I hope that the issue can be discussed here properly now. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 22:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi! Just a small clarification in regards to the above comments, which skew the past days' events a bit. I did leave a note on the talk page attempting to explain my rationale before making any edits here. In addition, I'm fully aware of weight that the naming issue carries, haha, so I hope you don't think that's even an issue. With regards to your bit about "official" names, I'll note that the Irish government recognises Derry as the official name. gaillimh^{Conas tá tú?} 22:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry not to have noticed your first message here — though the problem is that you didn't wait for discussion or consensus.

For all I know, the Irish government recognises "Madras" as the official name of Chennai... --Mel Etitis (Talk) 23:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Citation needed for his name?

Someone put the "citation needed" tag for his Irish name. Despite the little error in spelling Séamus/Seamus, is citation really needed for his name? If so, how about the rest of the people with names other than English, like Mao Zedong and Kazem Al Saher?Jaimebienlesfruits 13:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• You can trivially verify those two names by searching Google. In contrast, there are no google results when searching for either "Séamus Ó hEighnigh" or "Séamas Ó hEighnigh". I've left a note on User talk:Derry Boi asking for a source, as this was the user who originally added it in. Demiurge 13:34, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
• Seamus Heaney was born in an English speaking country. There are no native speakers of Irish in Northern Ireland (although there are people, including Seamus, who can speak it). The other differnce with Mao Zedong is that Seamus Heaney was Christened "Seamus Heaney". If we go down this road, why don't we give the English translation of "Bairbre de Brún"?! NotMuchToSay 18:11, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• Firstly Séamas is perfectly acceptable, in fact Séamus is a slighly Anglicised version of Séamas.

Secondly, as for there being no native speakers of Irish in Ireland (north and south), you are completly wrong. My cousin is four and knows absolutely no English, she is a native speaker of Irish. And there are many like her as well. As for the source, thats the Irish translation of his name. Derry Boi 20:16, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• • Do you have a source that he has ever used it himself? If not, it's WP:NOR. Demiurge 20:17, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I never said anything about no native speakers of Irish in Ireland - there are of course in the Republic. Irish died out as a language with native speakers in Northern Ireland in the 20th Century, though if you have an example of someone who is native speaker due to the current revival, then I'm not going to argue with you. But to be honest, this is all window dressing, the Irish translation of his name is not needed unless he uses it, otherwise we might as well translate every Irish person's name, including Ian Paisley. NotMuchToSay 21:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I suppose it's just about possible for a non-native speaker of Irish to bring up a child as a (sort of) native speaker. Hugo Hamilton writes about this. Millbanks (talk) 09:57, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I think we need to sort the Irish language thing out.

I had a look on the Irish language version of Wikipedia and it starts off:

"File a rugadh i gContae Doire in Éirinn é Seamus Justin Heaney (13 Aibreán 1939 a rugadh é). "

It doesn't mention any Irish version of his name! Now you could possibly argue that an Irish language version might be valid there (I'm undecided) but on the English language version of Wikipedia, to use a version of his name, for which there is no source (in any language) would be silly.

As Heaney is from Ulster, why don't we have a Ulster Scots version of his name?

I think that for the name of any person, if they are generally known by another name (in the same, pr any other language) that name should be quoted - either in the top of the article, or if less common, further.

Just because Heaney is Irish doesn't mean his name should be translated in the Irish 'language'. It would be the same as giving an English translation for someone with an Irish-language name.

You'll note that Barbara Brown doesn't appear anywhere on the Bairbre de Brun page.

This is not a political comment. Personally, seeing "Co Londonderry" on this page looks odd, although I recognise Wikipedia's rules. Similarly, "Derry" on the Gregory Campbell page also looks weird. NotMuchToSay 18:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, if someone exclusively uses their Irish name or English name only (e.g. Bairbre de Brún, Éamon Ó Cuív, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Aengus Ó Snodaigh, Seamus Heaney) then that's all we should use; we shouldn't go making up translations like "Barbara Brown"/"Ed O'Keefe" which have never been used to identify them. If someone uses one name primarily and it can be verified that they have used the other version on at least one occasion then we should mention the other name too (e.g. Michael Collins can be shown to have used "Mícheál Ó Coileáin", Bertie Ahern can be shown to have used "Parthalán Ó hEachthairn", Mary McAleese can be shown to have used "Máire Mhic Ghiolla Íosa".). Demiurge 18:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree totally - also, see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) NotMuchToSay 21:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

"North of Ireland"

While I accept that this phrasing is meaningful to Irish nationalists, the sentence in which it is used makes no sense. I'm going to change it to "Northern Ireland", if nobody objects. --- (talk) 17:13, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Done. POV loaded term, removed. Djegan (talk) 17:33, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

follower

much as its an excellent poem, can i ask why all of follower is included? i think wed be better with a stanza or two from a wider range of his work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.160.246 (talk) 20:08, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Derry v. Londonderry

I count seven votes for Londonderry, two votes for Derry. Even if the three IP addresses are discounted, there is 2:1 support for Londonderry. The article is now unprotected, and will remain that way unless a revert war begins. Anyone who changes Londonderry to Derry may be reverted on sight and (Note to other administrators) should be blocked for vandalism. If this does not solve the problem, then the article will be protected again. Anyone who disagrees with my determination of the consensus should file a Request for Comment. -- Essjay · Talk 22:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

What sort of "vote" did you hold and amongst whom? Since Londonderry and Derry are both acceptable for Co. Doire in N. Ireland, the preferred usage of the subject should prevail. In this case, since Heaney is a nationalist, the usage would be "Derry". Obviously, anyone who is familiar with Ireland (except a staunch Unionist) would agree with this assessment. 9 September 2006.

Knowing the sensitivities around this issue, I thought it wise to explain a (seemingly trivial) edit. The phraseology "and therefore would call his birthplace County Derry" sounds speculative - as if we don't really know, but we just think he would - and so inappropriate for an encyclopedia. However, the link to his Nobel acceptance speech shows that he does in fact call it Co. Derry, so I am changing the text to make it factual rather than speculative. (N.B. No actual names are being changed in the article, merely the modality of the statement re. Heaney's own usage.) Vilcxjo 15:38, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

That's what I was trying to convey when I introduced that wording, but if people think that the amendment makes things clearer, fair enough. - Poetlister 17:57, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I just love the double standards on Wikipedia. We have some people who spent all day reverting any mention of the word "Derry" on this website, demanding that evidence be provided that Heaney uses this word to describe the county of his birth, while over on the Gregory Campbell (politician) article, the word "Londonderry" was used to describe the city of his birth since 00:45, 20 September 2005. I edited it today.

I also notice that there are plenty of people in Category:Natives of County Londonderry who should, by virtue of birth, be in [[Category::People from Derry]].--Damac 20:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Damac. I presume I'm one of the people you are referring to! As you know the agreement is that Derry for city, Londonderry for county. I stick to this (despite my personal feelings on the matter) and change Londonderry to Derry whenever I see it. Do you mean there are people born in the city that are categorised as being from the county only? Well, that's wrong obviously. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 20:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course it's wrong. My problem is that despite categories listing people from particular places, categories which have been in existence for yonks, none of the people (and I'd include you) who are always on the lookout for "County Derry" don't seem to have a problem with well-known people Gregory Campbell (politician) being described as being born in "Londonderry" (in their article) for well over a year. As I said, it's double standards.--Damac 20:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Damac, I look out for when both Derry and Londonderry have been used incorrectly. And you're assuming that I, and everyone else, have seen the Campbell article before. I see what you are getting at, people ignoring policy/comprimises annoys me too, but you can't assume people have double standards. Again, please assume good faith. On the matter of miscategorisation, I've changed a few pages in the Natives of Londonderry cat. With some it's not clear whether the author is saying they are from the city or the county. Should we assume if it says Derry they are referring to the city, and not the county? Maybe someone with more local knowledge should go through each page. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 20:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It's funny that for some reason we're supposed to accept calling the county he is from Londonderry, but the wikipedia article is about Derry, not Londonderry.

Wrong! the article about the county is County Londonderry, the article on the city is Derry. Djegan 14:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Seamus has ALWAYS and will always refer to his home county as "Derry". Anyone who knows his work and his career will know this; should this article not be substantiated through Seamus' own thoughts and airings, since this is exactly why he is famous all over the world! If he referred to his county as Londonderry, then that would be his own viewpoint and acceptable. However, the fact remains that he states his county of birth as Derry. By not using Seamus' own view, Wikipedia is doing a disservice to Seamus and actually remain factually incorrect. Please use the authors own terminology Wikipedia.

Seamus Heaney was born in Derry according to the Nobel Prize website, so really are you going to argue with the Nobel Prize foundation on this one? If you don't believe me, read it for yourself; http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1995/heaney-bio.html Personally I think Heaney would espouse such an argument over a place name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.119.150 (talk) 07:10, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

WWSD (What would Seamus Do)? He'd say Derry, and the article should reflect that. The article on Seamus Deane says he attended St. Columb's in Derry - is it too much to ask for that Heaney's article say the same thing? --Editor37 (talk) 17:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

You are right. In today's Irish Times there's a two page interview with Séamus Heaney, and yes, he refers to Co Derry. Millbanks (talk) 18:29, 25 October 2008 (UTC).

Seamus Heaney always refers to the County of his birth as Derry. In the attempt to please everyone, can we change it to, County Derry/LondonDerry? or LondonDerry/Derry if some Protest.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.241.137 (talk) 20:28, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Requiem for the Croppies

I wonder why this has been given a paragraph of its own, and not, say, Station Island? Nice bit of implicit (but probably justified) Brit bashing? (I changed English to British). Millbanks (talk) 17:24, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree. This is by no means an exceptional Heaney poem, and to give it a section to itself is totally out of proportion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.102.84.159 (talk) 14:02, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

This poem needs an article of it's own. An article on Requiem for the Croppies could not only set about analysing what the poem may or may not mean ,
but also document the exceptional rapport received in literary journals, the press and by various politicans.It is one of the peoms published in Door into the Dark (1969)where this and other poems seem to read as if the poet himself is probing beneath the surface of things (maybe himself in a search for hidden meaning ?Heaney said "'For nearly 30 years and more I didn't read it, because I was aware that it would always have been taken as a coded IRA poem,'"Seamus Heaney has seen it all". Seamus Heaney talks to Jenny McCartney. Telegraph Media Group Limited. 2007-09-21. Retrieved 2009-03-17. 'Requiem for the Croppies' - a 1966 homage to the dead of the United Irishmen's 1798 rebellion - was a frequent choice at poetry readings until the IRA campaign rendered history freshly combustible)

*I found 721 results for a search "Seamus Heaney"+ "Requiem for the Croppies" [6]

*"Anger and nostalgia: Seamus Heaney and the ghost of the father". Eire-Ireland:Journal of Irish Studies. 2001. Retrieved 2009-03-17. ....the seeds carried in the pockets of rebels slaughtered in 1798 germinate and grow up out of their graves: trouble would hatch out in time, the poem implied. This was the sort of thing that made Paisley's paper talk of Heaney as the "well-known papist propagandist" who belonged in the "popish republic."--Stadt (talk) 19:27, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Removed it. The article doesn't need analysis of particular poems. Monk Bretton (talk) 03:10, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

More changes to Derry/Londonderry

Gaillimh changed Londonderry to Derry in this sentence yesterday: "Despite his many travels much of his work appears to be set in rural Londonderry, the county of his childhood." I have reverted this back to Londonderry. The county is being referred to here, which in the compromise is called Londonderry. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 11:39, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Haha, no. Heaney, a nationalist, is not referring to "Londonderry." It's been properly referenced that he identifies as being with Derry. I'm going to just remove the sentence as it appears to be a point of conflict and is original research in any case. gaillimh^{Conas tá tú?} 14:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

What Heaney calls it is irrelevant, we're talking about geographical fact. There's never been a county called Derry and the agreement says Londonderry. If you want to reopen the debate on the whole issue go ahead, but it's opening a massive can of worms. But good idea on the compromise. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 14:52, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

There was another botched attempt at de-Londoning Derry, and this is getting boring. I have resolved the issue. No reference at all to the county name. If somebody wishes to learn the location of the towns and cities mentioned in the article, he can consult their respective articles. Now all of you can go to war on those pages. Enjoy. Tomasboij 00:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC) That's the best idea yet. If people want to war over London/Derry, let them do it somewhere else. Monk Bretton (talk) 01:15, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

yes, Why not just take Londonderry/Derry out all together and have done since it changes every ten minutes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spanglej (talk • contribs) 14:34, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Just take out the Derry / Londonderry reference

It's not hard to take it out altogether. "Just say father, Patrick Heaney, owned and worked a small farm of fifty acre but his real commitment was to cattle-dealing". There's no point in going back and forth on this three times a day for the next fifty years. This is an article about a poet and his poetry. It doesn't honour him. Take the reference out and keep it out. Have done with it. Spanglej (talk) 13:07, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Can we just put a bot reversal on it to delete any Londonderry / Derry reference? Spanglej (talk) 18:52, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone object to taking out the Derry / Londonderry reference to his father? If no response by the end of Feb let's remove it. Spanglej (talk) 19:47, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Seamus Heaney at Harvard

Just wondering why there is no mention of Seamus Heaney's appointment at Harvard University. He was a Fellow at Adams House where I ran into him repeatedly during my tenure as non-resident tutor 1990-1995, but never to speak to him at length. I recall he threatened to exert his rights and tether a goat on Cambridge Common. 75.67.254.146 (talk) 00:44, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

It's mentioned twice. Spanglej (talk) 01:58, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Category Irish poets.

I put Séamus Heaney into the Category:Irish poets, but it keeps being removes. I think it only makes sense that Séamus Heaney is categorised as an Irish poet. He is Irish, he has the right to be Irish and sees himself as Irish. There is absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be listed as an Irish poet. Derry Boi 23:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think anybody disputes that Heaney is an Irish poet - that's not the issue. The issue is that he is listed already as a Northern Irish poet, which is a sub-category of the Irish poets category. This makes sense given the specific Northern Irish themes in his work. Most of the poets from NI are listed in this category - only exception I can find is John Montague from Tyrone, listed only as an Irish poet, not sure why this is....

The reason here might be that Heaney belongs with a distinct sub-grouping called Northern Ireland Poets (we, and they, may argue about who exactly is inside or outside that group), but Montague has refused to be thus categorised. At a recent reading he talked about it and cited several reasons why he's regarded as outside the group, chief of which were that he pre-dates free secondary education in the NI, whereas people like Heaney went to secondary school after the introduction of free secondary education. Also he pointed out that he lived in France during his early years and has lived in the Republic, almost exclusively in County Cork, since he returned from France. Treeinthebog (talk) 11:11, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Can we please try and be consistent in our use of categories and try to avoid unecessary duplication and category inflation?

Rbreen 10:01, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

He may be Irish, but he's also British. Being born in NI he is an Irishman, but that is not his nationality - his nationality is British.

Hence why you may have some trouble putting him in the Irish section, which is generally reserved for those from the ROI. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Suicidal Lemming (talk • contribs) 02:28, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Please, let's not start this again. It's perfectly fine to have both categories. Heaney says he identifies with both, in different ways. He was born in the North. His passport's green. There really is no problem with having two cats. Span (talk) 17:11, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the person who made the unsigned comment above ("He may be Irish, but he's also British") is familiar with the concept of dual citizenship. It means that you can either (a) have two nationalities or (b) choose one of two available nationalities. It might be true to say that Heaney was born British but chose Irish nationality, except that the "Britishness" in that context would be regarded as an imposed nationality, a form of colonialism, if you like. It is unlikely that Northern Ireland, during Heaney's childhood, was regarded by his family as anything other than Ireland. Given that, it would have been unnecessary for the young Heaney to assert his Irish nationality. It is clear, that once he was called upon to explain how he regarded himself, he called himself Irish. But anyway, all this is a load of codswallop. 'Nationality' is a completely artificial construct, and not relevant in any way to an assessment of his work. Heaney has m,ade it quite clear that he inhabits the entire English language as a landscape, and has made strenuous efforts to inhabit Italian, Latin and Greek languages too. He is, more properly a European writer from the island of Ireland.Treeinthebog (talk) 18:50, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Copyright problem

This article has been reverted by a bot to this version as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) This has been done to remove User:Accotink2's contributions as they have a history of extensive copyright violation and so it is assumed that all of their major contributions are copyright violations. Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. VWBot (talk) 06:24, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Despite being Irish?

"... he was named one of "Britain's top 300 intellectuals" by The Observer, despite being Irish."

I'm not sure the last part of that sentence in the opening paragraph is really necessary. Whilst it seems he has asserted his right to be an Irish citizen this does not negate that he was born in what is considered a British territory. He was eligible to win a prize of British prize because he was born within British borders without any legal problems to the contrary. --93.182.146.87 (talk) 15:53, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I've changed it. Span (talk) 18:53, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Fintan O'Toole and Colm Tóibín are also on that list for some reason. Neither were "born within British borders." Dublin and Enniscorthy are nowhere near Northern Ireland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.40.104.109 (talk) 06:40, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

More fool the Observer. Span (talk) 17:50, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

MRAI

Why is this one membership tagged on to his name, when he has been given membership of (and honours by) numerous organisations across the world? 89.101.41.216 (talk) 10:22, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

WP:MOSBIO in the section WP:POSTNOM, post nominals "should be included when they are issued by a country or widely recognizable organization with which the subject has been closely associated. Honors issued by other entities may be mentioned in the article, but should generally be omitted from the lead". Murry1975 (talk) 15:04, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Edit warring

The Derry / Londonderry business in the lead was the matter of edit warring for years. Why set it off again? "Castledawson and Toomebridge in Northern Ireland" is specific, linked and meaningful to readers. I hope that Seamus's article can avoid being a political football. I can't imagine he would be much impressed. Span (talk)

It's not in the lede any more, and I would take great issue with being accused of using the article as a "Political football" when all I have done is revert IMOS violations. I have 0 politcal agenda when it comes to this issue, people can call it co. Derry or LDerry all they damn please, but it's very frustraiting when someone wont even bother to look at IMOS even after It's been pointed out! I think I left two notices on two talk pages and the editors (One IP) went ahead and did it again.--Somchai Sun (talk) 22:32, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

And don't worry, I'm only talking about the "I'm offended by it being called Londonderry" crowd ^_^ no doubt I am some evil imperalist in their eyes ! --Somchai Sun (talk) 22:40, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

GA / FA?

Has the possibility of nominating this for GA / FA status been considered? At brief glance, it looks to be of the level needed. -- Zanimum (talk) 18:39, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

It smacks just a little too much of newspaper generalities for FA. To get there one would have to use, rather than merely note in the bibliography, the technical studies of his ouevre, like, to name one I am familiar with, Neil Corcoran's The Poetry of Seamus Heaney.Nishidani (talk) 09:53, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Urgh

I just had to revert this shite manually [7] (this vandalism was extensive - thanks to other editors who removed other parts of it) and would advise people scrutinize edits to check for "sneaky" vandalism like this. Thanks. --Somchai Sun (talk) 20:29, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

"As he was proudley Irish, Heaney felt the need to emphasise that he was Irish and not British." This edit makes no sense. The point being made is that Heaney was born in Northern Ireland but did not take a British identity. Span (talk) 19:28, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

"As he was born and educated in Northern Ireland, Heaney felt the need to emphasise that he was Irish and not British", as you put it , claiming to revert vandalism- which it is clearly not, not everyone born in NI sees themselves as Irish, which it could be taken from your edit. The article has at this part already dealt with his education and up-bringing. Murry1975 (talk) 20:12, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Noli timere

No one has complained about my footnotes, or of original research, which is not to say I'm not wary of it myself. After linking to the Telegraph article suggesting 70 or so instances of noli timere in the Vulgate (but mostly in variant forms, not those two specific words), wanted to make clear that I'm essentially following the lead of Stanford Asst. Prof. Nicholas Jenkins on this — to the degree he's commented these past few days witnin his Twitter feed, @audenfan. For those collecting personal tributes this week, his 20-tweet burst a couple days ago at @audenfan is a must-read.

Jenkins knew Seamus very well, also knows his wife Marie. He observes that Matthew 1:20 is "Do not be afraid [to take Mary as your wife...]. Though Jenkins doesn't spell it out, the phrase may offer comfort while also expressing gratitude to his wife.

Michael Heaney explained nothing at the funeral. We will hear more from the family one day, and gain a deeper understanding of what they took from his last words. For the time being, Matthew 1:20 seems to best fit the known circumstances of the Heaney marriage. Sandover (talk)

I reversed the edit and deletion, suggesting we move discussion to Talk. I do agree that the footnote spelling out the five known instances of noli timere in the Vulgate needs some judicious pruning. But for the record — and I would welcome ANYONE proving me wrong on this — those five verses are the ONLY instances of the specific phrase noli timere in the (canonical) Latin Bible. Seamus Heaney's last words were in reference to one or more of those Latin originals, possibly to all of them (more on that later). But be not afraid of that someone who suddenly recalls 65 further examples of the phrase noli timere scattered throughout the Vulgate and who thinks that the time, or the trouble, or the time and the trouble, is just too much to think any one in particular matters, or could matter, in itself . . . The subtleties will emerge from the Latin, I'll bet. But with every grammatical variant rendered by the King James Players (whoever they were) into "Be not afraid" in English, why, something was lost in translation, some truth. . . I sense Heaney knew it, too, and that it's the crux of the matter, the reason he so carefully chose those words. Sandover (talk) 12:06, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Ah, seems I got it all very wrong . . but thanks to this online searchable Vulgate, I found out |in a flash there are 28 instances of noli timere to be found in the (canonical) Latin Bible — 21 in the Old Testament, 7 in the New — and if that number seems low compared to the Telegraph's 70, try the search yourself: I didn't count plural nolite timere appearances (although the Telegraph did), and I also didn't count noli timere when it appears in the so-called Apocrypha, though they come up in the full search. Seamus Heaney certainly knew his Apocrypha, and for those fellow-traveller Heaneyans possibly curious, perhaps, whether his deliberate Vulgate allusion could be specific to his Roman Catholic identity and education, one could do worse than look in to those outsider-insider narratives all but ignored by . . by the Queen . . .

But worry not, I've no plans to compose another overweight footnote. What wisdom I've gained is either lost, or to be found, on this Talk page. To that handful of readers still sleuthing about Heaney's last words, and what verse (or reversal?) he might, he might not, have seen crossing the sky of his brilliant but darkening mind, I say 'Be Not Afraid!'

The 'Noli 28' is a long list of suspects, with many an angel-faced repeat offender on it; and though none have shown signs of 'gilt' in this instance, don't fret . . . we can keep one or all, indefinitely, you bet.

Old Testament (21 verses): Gen 15:1, Gen 21:17, Gen 26:24, Gen 35:17, Gen 46:3, Deut 1:21, Deut 31:8, 1 Samuel 28:13, 1 Kings 17:13, 2 Kings 6:16, 2 Kings 19:6, Isaiah 7:4, Isaiah 10:24, Isaiah 40:9, Isaiah 41:14, Isaiah 43:1, Isaiah 43:5, Isaiah 44:2, Isaiah 54:4, Jeremiah 46:28, Daniel 10:19

New Testament (7 verses): Matt 1:20, Mark 5:36, Luke 5:10, Luke 8:50, John 12:15, Acts 18:9, Rev 1:17

Sandover (talk) 17:40, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

While I respect the quality of Sandover's research, I appreciate the removal of the exegesis about noli timere in the article footnotes. There is no reliable source to indicate that Heaney even had the Bible in mind at all, and how could there be? He was not interviewed on the matter after he sent the text and his family have not speculated in public about his intentions. Since such an everyday phrase appears so often in the Bible, citing some of the instances is just an off-topic set of entirely arbitrary examples, and original research. I recommend removing the Daily Telegraph article citation ("Why Seamus Heaney's last words weren't the last laugh" by Christopher Howse) since there are so many everyday phrases in the Bible that are not in any meaningful sense "Biblical", and the Howse article cannot be shown to help the reader to know Heaney. — O'Dea (talk) 21:23, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

In the absence of any interest shown in the above, I have taken my own advice and removed the off-topic Daily Telegraph citation by Christopher Howse. — O'Dea (talk) 22:52, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

"Two-thirds of sales"

The first sentence under "Works" stated that "Upon his death, Heaney's books made up two-thirds of the sales of living poets in the UK." In fact the reference provided for this statement was to an article published in 2007, so the time-frame is wrong. I have changed it, but perhaps the sentence belongs elsewhere in the article, and not as an introduction to his work. 850 C (talk) 17:18, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Date of move to Sandymount

In the lead we say "He lived in Sandymount, Dublin, from 1972 until his death. [2][3][4]" I would like to move the footnotes out of the lead and into the body. But later, in the body, we say "He became Head of English at Carysfort College in Dublin in 1976 and the family moved to Sandymount in Dublin." The dates don't match. Footnote [2] is the Guardian obit, which doesn't give precise dates. I think that could be cut. [3] says "In October 1975 he took up an appointment at Carysfort Teacher Training College in Dublin and in the following year he became Head of English, a post he was to hold until 1981. In 1976 he and his family moved from County Wicklow to the capital city, Dublin.", which looks accurate and like the date we should use. 1976. [4] is Opened Ground which I don't have. Does that have better information about the date of the move, or is there a better source? – Margin1522 (talk) 21:54, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

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A6 widening

There was an article on today's The_World_at_One that the A6 improvements threaten the farm that Seamus grew up on. There is a protest group - and planners saying that there is no better route.

Not sure quite how to cite this - or whether it is worth mentioning.

62.30.150.241 (talk) 13:04, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 4 July 2017

I only joined Wikipedia today and henceforth I am unable to edit this article. However, I recently updated two of the categories this articles is included in: 20th-century writers from Northern Ireland to 20th-century male writers from Northern Ireland 21st-century writers from Northern Ireland to 21st-century male writers from Northern Ireland

So could someone please add the categories listed above. Thanks. JustaguyontheInternet (talk) 18:36, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Done jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 19:00, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

 Not done. Block evasion by User:JP8077. Binksternet (talk) 04:29, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

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Antiques Roadshow

On episode 20 of the 40th series of BBC's Antiques Roadshow, broadcast on 29 July 2018, a first edition of Heaney's first book Eleven Poems (original price 3 shillings) was appraised by book expert Matthew Haley who gave an auction estimate of more than £3,000. [8] Martinevans123 (talk) 10:15, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Removal of lists

Lists of Heaney's works have been removed as unreferenced. Such lists are common, but more importantly, the works don't need further referencing as they contain name, year, title, and publisher. They should be reinstated. Kablammo (talk) 11:35, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, please put them back. Anna (talk) 16:48, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

I have done so. Kablammo (talk) 13:38, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

It may be appropriate to list principal works in this article and relegate the complete list to a bibliograpy article, as was done with W B Yeats and W H Auden, among others. Kablammo (talk) 15:25, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, but I've reverted this. Per WP:LISTCRITERIA we cannot have indiscriminate lists of objects without any selection criteria or reliable sources to back up why the items are being listed. It is not enough to just verify the existence of the books. Also, as I said in the edit summary, most of the important information from those lists can be derived from the prose of the article already. Heaney's important works are all discussed in the prose, so the lists are offering nothing new to the reader. THanks  — Amakuru (talk) 15:54, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Amakuru, please do not edit war. You are the only one asserting this position. We have author, title, publisher, and date. We do not need some external source to give that same information. In fact, other bibliography articles use as footnoted authority the same information. Kablammo (talk) 16:01, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

I have given the link to the guideline saying that you do need to provide citations. If you link to an outside source that has compiled the same set of works, and if your "selected discography" is backed up by reliable sources doing the selection then that's absolutely fine. Otherwise it's original research and has no place here. The fact that the rule is often broken doesn't mean that it is not a rule.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:07, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

By that logic, anytime I cite a book for a proposition is "original research". Kablammo (talk) 16:09, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Not at all. A book citation is not part of the article, it's a supporting note for verification. Your choice of which books to cite is your own, as long as they represent the mainstream view of the fact they're used to cite. What we're talking about here is a list of books chosen not to back up the facts of the article, but as the core encyclopedic content of the article. Someone might write 1000 books, of which only a handful are notable or relevant to understanding the person. But it's the job of third-party sources to pick out that handful, not Wikipedia editors. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 16:14, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

For an example of what I'm talking about, see Ezra Pound#Works. It has a similar long list, but at the end is a cite explaining exactly where the list came from.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:32, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Amakuru, you have no consensus. Anna (talk) 18:31, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Its trivially easy to cite the works section, and would favour restoration. However, I don't like "Critical studies of Heaney", which is a dressed up "further reading" sect, which are discouraged as they can be infinitely long by definition. Ceoil (talk) 22:31, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

PS, agree with the rational for restoring the poem box. 22:34, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

I have restored the lists, except for the critical studies. As a bibliography of the works of one person, the list is comprehensive, not indiscriminate. In any event, consensus here is clear. Kablammo (talk) 14:49, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

British?

Perhaps this has been addressed before, but why is he included in these categories? Category:20th-century British dramatists and playwrights and Category:20th-century British male writers. Cheers, Fergananim (talk) 14:46, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

He was from Northern Ireland, so most likely he was a dual-national British and Irish. Although I'm guessing he self-identified as Irish for the most part. I don't know if it's common to categorise as both in these situations, but that at least is an explanation.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:50, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Birthplace

The lead section says this:

"He was born in the townland of Tamniaran between Castledawson and Toomebridge, Northern Ireland."

In support of this, the "Early life" section opens like this:

"Heaney was born ... at the family farmhouse called Mossbawn... [9] (quote=Heaney was born on 13th April 1939, the eldest of nine children at the family farm called Mossbawn in the Townland of Tamniarn in Newbridge near Castledawson, Northern Ireland, ...) between Castledawson and Toomebridge."

The problem with putting Tamniaran in the info box is that it has no article. Is it likely to ever have one? Newbridge, Castledawson also has no article. I'd suggest that the infobox just says "Newbridge, near Castledawson. The other slight issue here is that Toomebridge redirects to Toome. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:14, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

As far as I can see, Tamniaran is not even on the map. This site shows it to be as the suburbs of Castledawson. I agree with Martin. Anna (talk) 18:09, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

A little more detail is given here, by the Mid Ulster Mail, which says: "Born on April 13, 1939, at Mossbawn, Broagh, just down the Toome Road near the Hibernian Hall..." But again, it must be pretty close to Castledawson? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:26, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Castledawson is the useful link, for sure. Anna (talk) 18:49, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

The current source says "Townland of Tamniarn in Newbridge". I'm not sure if Tamniarn or Newbridge is the more useful placename. But it makes no sense to redlink either. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:32, 3 February 2020 (UTC)