Talk:Sdok Kok Thom

Thai naming of the Khmer temple

As about half of the article is about this Khmer temple in Thailand, I think we should provide the proper name for it in Thai script as well as a transcription from Thai into the Latin alphabet. If you search Google for "สด๊กก๊อกธม" or for "สด๊อกก๊อกธม" nearly all hits are prefixed by a ปราสาท - prasat meaning "castle". Sometimes its even preceded ba a ปราสาทหิน - prasat-hin meaning stone castle. Most road signs in Thailand show the way to "Prasat Sadok Kok Thom", which is the transliteration of ปราสาทสด๊อกก๊อกธม using the Royal Thai General System of Transcription (note the "a" in "Sadok"). My book (Smitthi Siribhadra, Elizabeth Moore: Palaces Of The Gods, Khmer Art & Architecture In Thailand. River Books, Bangkok 1992, ISBN 0-500-97450-0) also has a couple of pages about "Prasat Sdok Kok Thom" and its Thai equivalent ปราสาทสด๊อกก๊อกธม.

I'm still wondering about the letter "a" in "Kak" of the lemma of this article. In Thai its clearly an "o", so maybe its from the Khmer writing of this site? Is there sombody who could provide us with a Khmer script of its name - and a pronunciation guide? --hdamm (talk) 16:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello, hdamm. You raise very interesting points. Here are my thoughts. The temple's name is from old Khmer. As far as I can see, the Thai name is a phonetic transliteration of those old Khmer words. My Thai dictionary, for instance, shows no Thai word สด๊ก. So I think we should go with the closest thing possible to the Khmer name. As for the spelling Sdok Kak Thom, this is how the early French scholars (Aymonier, Coedes, Lunet de la Jonquiere) spelled it, from the Khmer words, as opposed to the Thai transliteration of those words. So that strikes me as the best Latin spelling to use.

Concerning "Prasat," the Thais do of course call it that and it is in Thailand, so we should note it. I apologize for taking the word out. I suppose my thinking was that it's not really accurate. The word prasat is often translated as "castle" or "palace," but those words seem to me to misrepresent what this place is. Castle implies military use and fortification, while palace suggests a residence for royalty, and Sdok Kak Thom was neither.

I was last at the temple almost 30 years ago. I would love to go back and see it in its reconstructed form. Have you been there recently? Writer128 (talk) 03:03, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Been There? No, not yet. I must admit, that I've seen only a handful of those Khmer temples in Isaan so far.

"Sdok Kak ...": Neither สด๊อก nor สด๊ก is listed in my dictionary (see below), too. I do agree with you, it is probably a 1:1 transliteration from Khmer into Thai.

"Prasat": let me cite here from my dic (G.B. McFarland: Thai-English Dictionary. Stanford University Press, Stanford 1944, ISBN 0-8047-0383-3) which is generally very reliable: "Bprah-sart – a building erected on high foundations and approached by means of steps; a terrace; a turreted palace; a mansion; a palace; a temple; a builing inhabited by a prince or a king." (Building on high foundations fits it quite good doesn't it?) And "Prasat" is just the Thai way to name Khmer temples: my above mentioned Book lists 23 Khmer temples of which 22 are named Prasat-something.

Maybe you noticed already this web page (with a couple of photos). It suggests still another possible translation. That confuses me quite a bit. I would reckon the "old" French scholars were capable of reading Khmer?

-- hdamm (talk) 16:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello again, Hdamm. Thanks for pointing out the Stanford dictionary listing--I see I don't really know the meaning of Prasat. Yes, the former French scholars I mentioned were capable of reading the inscription. Aymonier and Coedes published translations of it. I agree that we ought to try to add the Khmer script name of the place. Perhaps the folks of WikiProject Cambodia could do it? I clicked on the sundial link you sent, but today, at least, it's giving me a "page not available" message. But I think I've looked at it before and recall that the title was missing the "Kok" or "Kak". I took that to be a simple error, a typo. Writer128 (talk) 12:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

SunDial was working right now. The "Kok" or "Kak" is just missing in the title, its ok in the text. I didn't notice that there is something like a "WikiProject Cambodia"? Seems to be a good idea to ask them. Could you provide a link? --hdamm (talk) 16:20, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Three items down from the top of this discussion page you'll see a link to WikiProject Cambodia. You might try contacting the editor Paxse. He's very active, very knowledgeable on things Cambodian. Writer128 (talk) 12:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)