Talk:Scooter (motorcycle)

Reliable sources and "common knowledge"

www.wordiq.com is not a reliable source. It is an online encyclopaedia which is based on Wikipedia. WP:RS is clear that Wikipedia and its mirrors should not be used as sources in Wikipedia articles. Wikipedia:Common knowledge is also worth reading if you are trying to make a point e.g. "the fact that scooters are not popular in the USA is something we all know anyway". Bottom line - all facts on Wikipedia should be properly sourced from reliable (and ideally secondary) sources. --Biker Biker (talk) 17:34, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Fixed. For Dummies books and Complete Idiots guides always come through for me when I need to verify some common knowledge. --Dbratland (talk) 19:02, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Perfect source for something like this! Thanks. tedder (talk) 01:35, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Boom and bust in scooter sales

To only cite the surge in scooter (and motorcycle and moped) sales in 2007, when gas prices were high and the recession hadn't begun, is misleading and also not a very interesting story. In fact, sales have been very sensitive to gas prices and the boom in 2007 was followed by steep declines, with scooters suffering the most because they had gained the most during the high gas prices. A number of new scooter brands, and new electric scooters and motorcycles, that poped up when it looked like the public cared about fuel prices went belly up when the things turned around. In the long history of two wheelers, it has proven easier to start a bike company than a car company, but been tough for most companies to survive in the long run. Here's some links on the declines in after 2007:

• http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/1/162/2/Motorcycle-Blog-Post/Scooter-Sales-Boom---Bust-with-Gas-Price.aspx
• http://www.motorcycle.com/news/motorcycle-sales-down-408-in-2009-89136.html
• http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews/LATEST+NEWS/Motorcycle-ATV-Sales-Down-15-Percent/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/511691
• http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/2/5588/Motorcycle-Article/Motorcycle-Sales-Down-40-8--Says-MIC.aspx
• http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-news/statistics/motorcycle-sales-statistics.htm

--Dbratland (talk) 18:59, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

I hope my attempt to address this has been satisfactory. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 12:56, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

It looks like once again scooter sales have rebounded, again due to higher gas prices:

• Carpenter, Susan (June 30, 2011), Scooter sales surge after two-year slump, retrieved 2011-07-03 {{citation}}: Unknown parameter |newspaoer= ignored (help)

As with last time, scooter sales in the US rose faster than motorcycles when gas prices went up, and the declined faster than motorcycles when gas prices went down. It would be more encyclopedic to cite a good analysis of this pattern and the reasons behind it, rather than only a disconnected chronicle of ups and downs without any of the big picture. And we should look for analysis of this outside the US.--Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:30, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

3-wheeled scooters and stirling engine scooters

I think the section on 3-wheeled scooters needs to be removed, in my view a scooter is defined as having only 2-wheels (else it's a trike). Another thing which is intresting to mention are stirling engine scooters, some have probably already been built and Kamen (supposedly) is also working on one, see http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/ariel-schwartz/sustainability/dean-kamens-newest-invention-stirling-engine-equipped-hybrid-moto —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.182.233.228 (talk) 13:26, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinion. Blogs, however, are usually not considered reliable sources. Road tests of such scooters, if they exist, would be a good source of information. Also, is there a documented definition of a scooter that limits it to two wheels, or does that definition exist solely in your view? Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 14:28, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

How did I just know that this post would be from KVDP (talk · contribs)? 8-(

No, of course the section should not be removed. Please do not do so. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:48, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Agree, keep it. The Piaggio MP3 is a great example of a three-wheeled scooter. It is most definitely not a trike. --Biker Biker (talk) 23:10, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand why the mention of the MP3 is marked "citation needed." It has a citation. It's linked to the Wikipedia article about the vehicle. Jlmorgan (talk)

Popular culture section deleted

See WP:WPACT and WP:MC-MOS. There is little consensus for pop culture sections in Wikipedia but incorporating pop culture references, with citations, into appropriate sections of the article is welcome. The main criteria is citing a source showing the media references had some effect on scooter sales, popularity, design, etc. For example, it's not hard to find citations to show that Roman Holiday affected the popularity of scooters in the US. Mention of Mod (subculture) and Quadrophenia in the history section makes sense. But you need to find that citation first before you add it to the article. Please do not add a list of cruft at the end of the article. Lists of pop culture references attract material that is based more on some editor's opinion rather than a cited reliable source showing that the pop culture instance had any affect on scooters. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 17:01, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

And another thing: the deleted material is far too obsessed with the UK. Wikipedia needs to be globally balanced -- see Wikipedia:Systemic bias. One of the ways to avoid bias is to stick closely to what sources give you, and not just whatever you've found. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:20, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Move This Page

This article is about motorscooters and as such it should be titled "motorscooter" and not the stupidly awkward "Scooter (motorcycle)". The redirect should be the main page and this page should become the redirect. scooteristi (talk) 06:43, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Disagree. Motorscooter may be used in your country, but here in the UK the phrase is never used (at least in publications and internet forums that I know of). It is always called a scooter. Bottom line - motorscooter is not a globally used phrase either as two words or as a ridiculous compound word. --Biker Biker (talk) 09:11, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

And the format "Scooter (motorcycle)" conforms to Wikipedia:Disambiguation. Scooter is the far more common term than motorscooter in the US as well. See Google nGrams. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:24, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Whereas I disagree with moving the article to motorscooter as one word, I have noticed that Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English Language, Webster's New Twentieth Century Dictionary, The Living Webster Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language, Collins English Dictionary and Thesaurus, Chambers Concise Dictionary, and World Book Dictionary all claim that the full term is motor scooter. As such, I think there might be some merit to the argument for moving the article to Motor scooter, but not for moving it to Motorscooter. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 17:59, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

WP:NAME says to use the most common name for the subject and disambiguate with parenthetical phrases if needed. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 18:10, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

And if you add a space, the nGram looks like this. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:46, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I could be pedantic and say that using the word "scooter" alone in the search would include all the usage related to kick scooters, ice boats, mobility scooters, the Muppet, etc., but I will concede that even if half of that is taken up by the miscellania I mention, the other half is still substantially more than the term "motor scooter"

Still if you look at it this way, the case for the single word "motorscooter" is officially dead.

I have to wonder what caused those peaks of usage between 1840 and 1880, though.

Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 19:18, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

The essence of what scooteristi says is correct. Scooter (motorbike) is incorrect, because most people (including both scooterists and bike riders) see scooters and motorbikes as separate things - technically they are. The actual title should be the common name, and the technical name to clarify any confusion. So I would say this should be moved to *Scooter (Motor scooter)* - to clarify we aren't talking about push scooters. Any issues with this? Ideas?Deathlibrarian (talk) 02:54, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the above, "Motor scooter"(with a spaced) appears to be the common term as per Ghits not "motorscooter". Deathlibrarian (talk) 02:58, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

This thread is ten years old. If you want to, you should start a new move proposal. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 07:21, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Ok, will do. Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:56, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Definition vs. description

The first sentence in the "Description" section just doesn't work. It's an attempt to take dictionary definitions of the word "scooter" and use them to synthesize a description of the bikes. That's not the same thing. "A motorcycle similar to a kick scooter with a seat" might be true at the conceptual level, but it's not a helpful description of most scooters. It's like reading a description of an elephant compiled by the blind men in the parable: you can see where it came from, but it doesn't match the object in question. (The fact that several of the definitions being used are decades old doesn't help in describing current vehicles.) We need to stop trying in vain to define "scooter" here; this is not a dictionary. Instead I would suggest the following opening statement in that section:

There is no universally accepted definition of what distinguishes a scooter from other kinds of motorcycles, and people sometimes disagree about whether a specific model is a scooter or not. But there are common design characteristics that usually lead to motorcycle being considered a scooter.

The rest of the section - which actually describes the common features of scooters, rather than trying to impose an abstract definition on them - is more successful. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 18:10, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

There is no universally accepted definition for any word in the English language. It is not the purpose of Wikipedia to invent a universal definition. At some point we need to stop bickering over how you define words like "scooter". Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Wiktionary.org is a dictionary and that would be a good place to devote efforts to fine-tune the perfect definition of the word.

If citations are missing, fix them. If there are fact that need to be added, add them. But if it more or less tells the reader what a scooter is, it's fine, so leave it alone, and let's work on something more important. We're never going to get everyone to agree on the perfect wording, and drawing editors into these arguments wastes valuable volunteer resources. See also WP:LAME.--Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:17, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

"It is not the purpose of Wikipedia to invent a universal definition." That was my point. I'd like the remove the pointless made-up definition here, not bicker over it. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 21:10, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

OK by me, but I suspect if you remove it you might be starting a new edit war. Since it's been that way for a while and the fighting has died down, it might be better to leave it just to keep the peace. But it's up to you. (Click on Archive 2 and 3 at the top of this page to review the previous debates on this). --Dennis Bratland (talk) 23:01, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

To be honest I'm struggling to see what the fuss is about. The article seems to make a pretty good distinction between a scooter and a motorcycle which I believe the average reader would be interested in knowing about. Otherwise, why would the scooter article need to exist at all? --Biker Biker (talk) 10:22, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

The main problem is that "a motorcycle similar to a kick scooter with a seat" is a ridiculous description of a scooter. In addition to being inaccurate (most modern motor scooters do not resemble a kick scooter at all) the absurdity of that choice of words sounds like an attempt to make fun of them by conjuring this image. The article would be just as informative relying on the descriptive text in the rest of the section, which actually explains the common characteristics of scooters, without making up a contentious definition. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 12:38, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, the first citation, the OED, says a scooter is "A light two-wheeled (or occas. three-wheeled) open motor vehicle on which the driver sits over an enclosed engine, the feet resting on a footboard." It does not say that a motor scooter is similar to a kick scooter. There is a separate definition that says scooter is also a word for a child's toy with two wheels and a handle, but then it gives a definition that a scooter can be a kind of boat. It shouldn't be read as saying that a motor scooter is similar to a kick scooter. Same thing with the next citation, Webster's.

Unless the other citations directly say they are similar, then it's unsourced. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 15:54, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Regardless, a dictionary definition is simply not an authoritative or useful source to describe an evolving, subjectively grouped assortment of vehicles. The fact that it results in unhelpful verbiage like the definition at the beginning of the Description section here is an example of why. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 17:13, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to thank SamBlob for posting the full definitions from those dictionaries, because it demonstrates how little they can have in common with the subject of this article. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 18:30, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually, when I look at the definition, which is taken from where the dictionary references agree, and look at the picture of the Kymco scooter beside it, it's all there: the seat, the floorboard, and the small wheels with the front one attached to the handlebar. I fail to see the problem. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 19:31, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I see nothing that looks like a kick scooter. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 21:22, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

SamBlob, why did you include the child's toy definition, but you left off "4. a. A boat, propelled by sails, capable of being used both on ice and in water"? The source does not say there is any relationship between motor scooters and child's toys, any more than it says there is a relationship between motor scooters and a boat. Yes, they're all variant definitions of scooters, but that does not mean a motor scooter is like a kick scooter. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:40, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Because the child's toy definition ends: "also, a similar machine propelled by a motor", which is all that dictionary has regarding motor scooters as we know them. Please note that this dates from before the motorized kick scooter fad came out, so it would not define those. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 19:31, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

So why are we citing sources that are obsolete, unauthoritative, and incorrect? -Jason A. Quest (talk) 21:22, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

TLDR so I may have missed something, but JasonAQuest, as I understand it you have a problem with the sources used but haven't found others to support your point of view, right? tedder (talk) 21:45, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I encourage you to read the discussion. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 23:08, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Let me ask my question again. As I understand it you have a problem with the sources used but haven't found others to support your point of view, right? tedder (talk) 01:32, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Look, since it's obvious that youre more interested in chasing people off than listening to suggestions to improve the article, I'll give up. Dennis warned me that people would go apeshit over this apparent threat to their fragile sense of control here and he was right. "Lame" indeed. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 10:21, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

You start a discussion, get all heated then flounce off when challenged with a simple request to provide a reference to support your assertion. And you are calling Tedder lame?--Biker Biker (talk) 10:36, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I think the original suggestion was to delete some of the definition, on the grounds that it is poorly sourced and irrelevant. Since it is essentially a challenge of the given sources, there isn't a burden on JasonAQuest to cite other sources. Especially since it's unlikely that a source can be found to directly contradict the one old dictionary that says a motor scooter is like a kick scooter.

More broadly, this isn't Simple English Wikipedia, and this isn't the Voyager Golden Record. Readers can be presumed to be moderately educated Earthlings who have probably seen a motor scooter in their lives. Most humans, such as those in China, India, Africa and elsewhere, in fact have probably seen many times more scooters than cars or trucks. Therefore only a brief and not overly-technical definition of scooter is necessary here.

The more salient point that many readers might not know is that there are many contradictory definitions of scooter (and moped and motorcycle) depending on legal jurisdiction. We should basically tell readers: "Wikipedia can't settle your argument with your mates over the definition of a true scooter. Check with your local Department of Motor Vehicles instead, or look it up in a dictionary, which Wikipedia is not."

We should also peruse Wikipedia:Citation overkill. Many of the citations currently in the article were put there to resolve disputes between editors, not to serve the needs of the reader. The excessive citations belong on the talk page as a means to reach consensus. One, two or, at most, three footnotes per fact ought to be enough for the reader, once consensus is reached. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:47, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

This topic ABSOLUTELY needs a section on Safety

This topic ABSOLUTELY needs a section on Safety Statistics, concerns etc. The wiki for 'mopeds' has one, why not scooters? There should also be a link between motorcycles, scooters and mopeds delineating why they differ and how for legal intents and purposes scooters are sub-categorized as motorcycles.

108.27.246.135 (talk) 12:29, 19 March 2014 (UTC)persephone

Last thing first: The first line in the "Regulatory classification" section says: "Most jurisdictions do not differentiate between scooters and motorcycles." Perhaps we should simplify this to say: "Scooters are considered to be motorcycles in most legal systems," because that's what that sentence means.

I'd like to see a reference for that. In Australia, you need a separate licence for a scooter compared to a motorbike - they are legally different things.

Motorbikes are seen as harder to ride and have bigger engines, are larger and are manual gear shift so you need motorbike licence that qualifies you to deal with that. Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:54, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

If you have access to documents on which a section on safety concerns can be based, then by all means go boldly forth and write the section.

Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 16:57, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Number of accidents in scooter (<50 cm3) in France in 2018 is detailed in fr:Scooter#Risques.

Source documents also says scooters (that is the three categories of scooter) are 11% of motorbike fatalities in the same country, the same year— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.136.215.134 (talk) 11:39, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm happy to write up a section on safety, I have seen some discussion on it. People using motorbikes have different types of injuries compared to scooterists. Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:55, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Handlebar mitts

File:Erfindung- Roller mit integrierten Handschuhen. (22959813546).jpg

Re https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scooter_(motorcycle)&curid=23809410&diff=728662943&oldid=728597328 and the queried relevance, "What is this image telling us about scooters or scooters in popular culture?".

I think this stands up. Looking around in urban Europe, especially the warmer south, the ability to ride a scooter in street clothes without donning bike leathers is an important aspect of their use. These mitts are very common on scooters, rare on bikes outside the depths of Winter (and usually with gloves on too). Handlebar mitts on scooters are often an alternative to gloves altogether. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:58, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

If you had a source which actually said that mitts are strongly associated with scooters, I'd buy it. As it happens, where I live in the northern US, the mitts are most commonly seen (by me) on police motorcycles, and on 4 wheel ATVs. Hippo Hands were invented in 1973 by Craig Vetter and are historically associated with Vetter's long-distance touring gear, such as his large fairings and saddlebags. See this self-published source; the third party references listed do check out, and there are others in Cycle World etc.

Obviously they are useful on any kind of two wheeler handlebar, and no doubt scooterists appreciate them as much as motorcyclists. There are now many imitations of Vetter's original, including models made for bicycling. If you really wanted to, you could write a whole article on the subject, though I think it would be a permastub and it would be best to add a paragraph or two to the articles motorcycle accessories and/or Craig Vetter.

My objection on this article is that I don't think bar mitts, by any brand name, or improvised, are specifically associated with scooters. If you have a source that says that the mitts went from being a 1970s touring accessory in the US to an accessory particularly used on scooters in Europe, that would be interesting and I'd want to see it on this article. Otherwise, perhaps it should be moved to a section that describes how riders often get creative and enterprising with homemade accessories like File:Bali-style-scooter.xcf or File:Postal Supercub MD.jpg or File:Honda Super Cub fully loaded.jpg. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:22, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

I've not read anything about either. I've rarely seen them on motorbikes and they're mostly regarded in the UK as something only fitted for the winter. But if you walk past a line of parked scooters in Italy or Spain, you see many of them with handlebar mitts. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:57, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Should we include this based on your observations in Italy and Spain? This photo is from Germany. Is it really an illustration of what you've observed? Duct tape is so not what I think of when I think of scooters in Italy. I feel like the whole thing is a muddle, too much guesswork and so on. Typical of original research dictating article content. It's fine, I guess. The picture isn't really hurting anything. But I'd feel much better with sources. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 23:09, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

4 wheeled scooters

1st category

• EV Rider Royale 4 Wheel
• Quadro4

2nd category

• Phoenix HD 4-Wheeled Portable Mobility Scooter, Revo 2.0 4-Wheel and alike. 185.18.60.184 (talk) 11:21, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

New category of scooter ??

cargo scooter?? Lit Motors Kubo. 89.201.184.86 (talk) 18:07, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Lit Motors#Kubo Andy Dingley (talk) 18:13, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

It's really killing me, looking at the entrenched opposition to the mere mention of a major manufacturer to begin shipping within a year a fully-designed, fully tooled up, utterly non-ground-breaking edition of a long-established product line, while elsewhere we have paragraph after paragraph, even entire articles, about pure vaporware products that haven't even finished the design stage or entered production, and and in some cases hasn't even met its crowsdourcing (crowsdourcing FFS!) goal yet. I realize OSE, but there has to be some way out of this dumpster fire of contradiction and double standards. the policy continues to be little or no help. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:20, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

• WP:OSE. The place to question that is there, not here.

Personally I can see space for both. If I had time to argue such things, I'd be doing it at all the Tolkien AfDs right now 8-( Andy Dingley (talk) 20:29, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Compromise - Move this page to *Scooter (Motor Scooter)* as per WP commoname

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The title of this page seems to follow the logic that "Scooter" is the common accepted name, and they use (Motorcycle) to differentiate scooter from push scooters. However, commonly Scooters aren't seen as Motorcycles. Motorcylcists certainly don't see scooters as motorcycles, and scooterists see scooters as a separate thing. Normally, in terms of classifications, they are always listed separately. Certainly in sales pages, like E bay or Gum tree, the two get separate listings, and are referred to as separate things. Though both being two wheeled transport, apart from that have a host of differences, and are very different. Following on from the arguments presented in the original discussion above, (concerning motor scooter as two words) and considering common names, I'd like to suggest: * Scooter (Motor Scooter) *. This uses the common name, and uses the more formal term "motor scooter" to indicate it isn't a push scooter. If anyone has any feedback or objections, please speak up... but I think this is a good compromise to the previous discussion Deathlibrarian (talk) 12:40, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

What is your source for the generalizations "commonly Scooters aren't seen as Motorcycle" or "Motorcylcists certainly don't see scooters as motorcycles, and scooterists see scooters"? Is this based on a poll? From which countries? In what decades? When you say "Normally, in terms of classifications, they are always listed separately", it makes me wonder if you've read the citations in the article, or in motorcycle, or in types of motorcycles, which cite prominently at the top of the article various reliable sources which do treat them the same. Types of motorcycles goes into some detail about the problems and inconsistencies of motorcycle taxonomy. Some say tomato, some say toMAHto. We should all be familiar with the crux of these disputes, but can Wikipedia judge who is right?

What this all comes down to is the WP:COMMONNAME guideline. What you need to do here is present evidence that the mainstream practice is to say Bill Clinton (not: William Jefferson Clinton) or to say aspirin (not: acetylsalicylic acid). This not an easy task, but it's what we went through the last time this article had a formal move discussion, and the time before that. So if you want to make that case, by all means, feel free. But the burden is on you to show independently verifiable of your assertions. Statements like, "well, all the motorcyclists I personally know think..." are of absolutely no relevance. I could claim all the motorcyclists I know think the opposite and then what? We have a shouting match? What you and I personally experience and people you and I personally know aren't what matters. Cite some facts and that is how you will win consensus. If consensus based on independent reliable sources favors a move, I can get with that.

Until then, I'm opposed. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 03:12, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Sure, and thank you for taking the time for the feedback there, Dennis Bratland that all makes sense. Here's some references to support the above as per your request - would be great if you now look at these and reconsider:

• Dictionary definitions: While Wiktionary says a scooter is a type of motorbike, the two most respected dictionaries do not.
• OxfordEngDic says “A light two-wheeled (or occasionally three-wheeled) open motor vehicle on which the driver sits over an enclosed engine, the feet resting on a footboard”
• Merriam Webster says “a 2- or 3-wheeled motorized vehicle that has a low seat and a bottom platform for resting the feet”

Don't use the Wiktionary definition of scooter as the mods there keep reverting the definition to the 1930s definition of the word. That's the worst possible source. My source for knowledge of scooters is 40 years of collecting and riding various scooters and motorcycles. Being a former editor for both Scootering and American Scooterist magazines and having formerly owned a scooter shop and worked at two others, ie I'm a subject matter expert.scooteristi (talk) 21:34, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

• Polls

This poll on Facebook, when asked “Are scooters motorcyles?” 34 respondents answered no, that they are a different, separate vehicle. 8 said yes.

• This article Brandon Wise “Are scooters motorcycles?” Revzilla July 28, 2020 - directly addresses the question.

“I’ve heard it said time and time again: "Scooters are not motorcycles." Or, in the words of Mr. Zito Burrito, “No! They wouldn't be called scooters if they were motorcycles.”

• Statista Datasets Many statista datasets list both motorcycle and scooter in the title indicating they are separate commodities: eg
• Scooter motorcycle monthly sales in the United Kingdom
• ASEAN: motorcycle and scooter sales 2019 | Statista
• Italy: production volume of motorcycles & scooters
• Non-scooter motorcycle and moped monthly sales
• Sales volume of motorcycle and scooter tires in the European Union (EU)
• Consumer usage frequency of motorcycle, scooter or moped in China
• My overall comment - in the context of WP:COMMONNAME, Wikipedia "prefers the name that is most commonly used"..commonly, motor scooters and motorcycles are regarded as separate things. People don't think of a scooter when you say motorcycle, and vice versa. May be some people would think, in terms of a subject's "official" name, that a scooter is a motorcylce - but WP favors the common name over the official name. Its used this way in everyday common usage and would lead to confusion generally to refer to it as such. We should be using the common name that makes the most sense to the user. Deathlibrarian (talk) 01:53, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Pinging Sincerely, SamBlob and scooteristi from previous discussion. Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:15, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

This might prove some sources say scooters aren't motorcycles but how does it meet the standard in WP:COMMONNAME? How does that demonstrate a "prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources"? By what measure is this a majority? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 03:07, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

I've gone to quite a bit of research to collect all this, including a poll and an article that discusses the topic directly - which I think indicates pretty clearly what people think. I don't think its technically possible to meet WP:commoname criteria which you've quoted, but clearly the spirit of it is met by what I've provided. I was hoping for a bit of support for what I think is obvious. Anyway, thanks, I'll give up at this point. Deathlibrarian (talk) 07:41, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Deathlibrarian - I haven't really followed this through in detail (just glances now and then), but SamBlob hasn't edited (under that name, but nothing prevents IP edits) since 2015. Just hope she's well, living in what can be a violent and unpredictable society.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 13:51, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Oh thanks (talk) - I hope they are ok. Looks like scooteristi is still active, and given their name, probably would be interested in the page. I might drop something on their talk page. Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:42, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Be aware of canvassing guidelines. You can't hand pick sympathetic editors and rally them to support a change you're advocating. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 17:11, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

See also the first part of my reply at User talk:Redrose64#Scooter - RFC tag removed. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:20, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Apologies Dennis Bratland - noted. Deathlibrarian (talk) 11:06, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

References

While “Scooter” could be a motorscooter (like a Vespa), a kick scooter (like a Razor), a motorized scooter (like a GoPed), an air scooters (like Darth Maul's scooter in The Phantom Menace or the titular product of the company of the same name, diving scooters (like a Seabob), a colloquial term for a Harley-Davidson, or any of the other dozens of definitions on the scooter disambiguation page and while a motorscooter is a motorcycle with a step-thru frame, the decades long insistence Wikipedia editors who know nothing about motorscooters that the motorscooter page be insanely called Scooter (motorcycle) is maddening. It's akin to insisting that the car page instead be named Carriage (horseless)'. The page should be called Motorscooter. And for the pedants above, it is one word. It is not two words like "kick scooter". My source for knowledge of scooters is 40 years of collecting and riding various scooters and motorcycles. Being a former editor for Scootering and American Scooterist magazines and having formerly owned a scooter shop and worked at two others, ie I'm a subject matter expert — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scooteristi (talk • contribs) 21:34, April 12, 2021 (UTC)

You are well aware Wikipedia does not defer to self-described experts. You know we don't have a paid team of investigators who will do a background check to find out if you're really who you claim to be. There are no blue checkmark accounts on Wikipedia. You know Wikipedia was expressly created with the idea that we don't have to care if you're an expert or not. You could be a 12 year old in your mom's basement for all we know and it wouldn't matter. The reason is that all we care about is whether or not your arguments are sound and that you cite high quality sources. Those who disagreed with this approach created a different encyclopedia, Nupedia, where subject matter experts had special status and authority. Wikipedia is not Nupedia.

Starting a cock-wagging contest of who is more of an expert is a time-wasting distraction that will not get you anywhere. What you can do with your years of experience and knowlege is use that expertise to locate reliable sources that meet the criteria at WP:COMMONNAME. If you have those facts to cite, perhaps it is convincing, regardless of who you may or may not be. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:17, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

While I agree with Dennis Bratland that WP:COMMONNAME applies here, and that we should use "scooter" in the title because that is commonly what they are called, I think - that same principle of WP:COMMONNAME should be applied to remove "motorcycle" from the title. Scooters are NEVER called motorcycles. They are commonly called scooters, or perhaps motorscooters where people are being more formal, or want to make it clear they aren't talking about kick scooters. Scooteristi is correct, they are formally "motorscooters", and with the preponderonce of different types of scooters, that's what differentiates them - (and I'm both a long serving wikipedia editor and scooter rider)Deathlibrarian (talk) 11:27, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Also as an example, the technical/fomral name is used for some articles, even though its not WP:COMMONNAME . For instance, the common term for an aircraft is *plane* - eg "I caught the plane to Paris". "He flies a plane" "The plane crashed" But the article is called airplane. No one ever commonly uses "airplane" - but its presumably used to differentiate it from other uses of *plane*. Deathlibrarian (talk) 14:53, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

I expect that the Wright Brothers used a plane whilst making their plane. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:22, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

People actually say airplane more often than plane to refer to flying machines: [23]. Motorscooter is quite rare. The word "scooter" is very ambiguous and we have a language that forces everyone to use context and qualifiers to know which kind of scooter they mean. But that's true of many common English terms and it's no reason to try to force an uncommon term on Wikipedia readers just because we want to try to fix English's flaws.

If you pair scooter with other words, you can see how often it's used in the specific context we mean, and how uncommon motorscooter is. Take "Vespa scooter" for example: [24]. Or "50cc scooter" [25]. 650 news results [26]. "50cc motorscooter" 6 news results [27]. 17,000 overall google results: [28]. "50cc vespa" has 70k g hits [29]. "Vespa scooter" has 7 million [30]. "Vespa motorscooter" has 87,000 [31].

These are not definitive scientific results, but then again, it's not even close. Scooter, meaning the motorcycle, is vastly, overwhelmingly, more common than motorscooter.

Add to that the fact that across Europe and North America, you get the same license for a motorcycle as a scooter. Same insurance. Same parking regulations. The only exception is "mopeds", which are almost always defined by engine size or horsepower, and wheel size, with no regard for a scooter's defining characteristics of a step-through frame with overall enclosing bodywork. Scooters are motorcycles, and scooter is the common name. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 23:56, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Seriously, no one says "airplane flight"! If you are getting a ticket to new york, you say "plane ticket" because its shorter, not "airplane ticket". See here - Compare "plane crash" to "airplane crash" Google N grams Plane crash v airplane crash the use of the word airplane is not common, hasn't been since the 1940s. Dennis, I'm not arguing that motorscooter is more common that scooter, I agree with you, its not. However, I'm stating that *motorscooter* is more common to clarify what a scooter is, rather than saying *motorbike* - and I agree with Scooteristi that motorscooter is the formal name for scooter. So my compromise would be Scooter (Motorscooter) - that way both scooter and motorscooter are included. Hardly anyone calls a scooter a motorbike, and it doesn't comply with WP:COMMONNAME Deathlibrarian (talk) 01:01, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

You're doing it wrong, which I forget all the time. No quotes on the google ngram viewer, which is hard to get used to since normally you would use quotes in this type of search. And this is a database of books, so you have to account for greater formalism. It's "airplane accident". [32].

The title scooter (motorscooter) is a non-starter. Read WP:DAB. We don't say car (automobile) or plane (airplane) or Coke (Coca-cola). You put the common name first, and in parentheses goes the context, not a synonym. Hence Mercury (element), Mercury (planet) and Mercury (mythology). Not Mercury (Hermes) or Mercury (quicksilver). Not Jesus (Jesus Christ). Jesus Christ is a redirect to Jesus. Motorscooter is already a redirect to Scooter (motorcycle), so that's all good. You have to go back and come up with a title that meets the basic rules of WP:Article titles, WP:QUALIFIER, and WP:DAB.

But really I think you have to realize that Wikipedia does not right great wrongs. It sucks that scooter is ambiguous and English doesn't have a good word to use, but that's how it is. Some guys want to argue with their mates that "motorscooter" is the "formal name" but that's just an opinion, not a fact. Sources and evidence don't say it's the formal name. Put another way -- shameless self-promotion -- Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not here to settle bar bets. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:19, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

*sigh* I don't get why people who have never ridden, owned, sold, or repaired a motorscooter and have zero connection to the scootering lifestyle are so intent on keeping the ridiculously awkward Scooter (motorcycle) name over the factually correct motorscooter name (yes it's one word). The Kick scooter page isn't named scooter (skateboard). Seriously, let us change the name of this page to motorscooter make Scooter (motorcycle) the redirect and be done with it. scooteristi (talk) 12:34, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

You have no idea what you're talking about. Please try to restrict your comments on verifiable facts and don't resort to ad hominem. I don't know why you would think hours in the seat or the number of scooters we've sold increases our expertise on a language usage question. The only reason I can see for you to jump to the (incorrect) conclusion that others haven't ridden, owned, sold, and repaired scooters is that we've asked you to cite evidence that meets the criteria for Wikipedia's naming convention, instead of simply agreeing with you no questions asked.

Nobody needs to be a veteran scooter rider to read and understand WP:COMMONNAME and WP:DAB. Personally I think my English degree is more relevant expertise than my hours riding scooters or tearing down scooter engines.

It might help to understand that even if you got a couple editors to go along with a name change that violates guidelines, it won't last. Sooner or later, any of the thousands of other Wikipedia editors who know and understand the guidelines will notice, and they will change it back, for the reasons explained at WP:COMMONNAME and WP:DAB. A cock measuring contest over who has more experience with scooters isn't going to get you anywhere: even if you could get me to bow to your claims of superior expertise, none of those other editors care. Nobody wants to spend their limited volunteer time checking your resume to verify your credentials, even if we had any idea how we would go about that. This is literally the entire point of Wikipedia: it doesn't matter who you are. Read History of Wikipedia. Read Nupedia. There have always been encyclopedias written by an elect group of experts. Wikipedia is not that.

You either have verifiable evidence. or you don't. If you're a veteran scooter guy with who has all the experience, then surely all that knowledge can be put to use locating verifiable sources you can show us. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:59, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Starts with ad hominem in the first clause then immediately complains about ad hominem. 🙄

Motorscooter used in title:

•Vespa and Lambretta Motor Scooters by Stuart Owen, Bloomsbury Publishing 2019 ISBN 978-1784423179

•The Complete Idiot's Guide to Motor Scooters by Bev Brinson and Bryce Ludwig, Alpha Books 2007 ISBN 978-1592576395

• Motor Scooters by Michael Webster, Bloomsbury USA 2007 ISBN 978-0747806684

•How to Restore and Maintain Your Vespa Motorscooter by Bob Darnell and Bob Golfen, Motorbooks 1999 ISBN 978-0760306239

•The Complete Guide to Cushman Motor Scooters by Bill Somerville, Cushman Publications 1988 ISBN 978-9993165927

•Repair Instructions for Puch Motor Scooters SR/SRA 125/150 by Steyr-Daimler-Puch Aktiengesellschaft 1962 ISBN pre-ISBN

•Puch Motor Scooters RL125, RLA125, Completed for Models SR/SRA 125/150 Repair Instructions by Steyr-Daimler-Puch Aktiengesellschaft 1959 ISBN pre-ISBN

Motorscooter used in text:

•Eureka by Jim Lehrer, Random House 2009 ISBN 978-0812975529: "‘Motorscooter,’ Otis said, ‘I bought a Cushman scooter, not a motorcycle.’"

•The Scooter Bible from Cushman to Vespa, the Ultimate History and Buyer's Guide by Eric Dregni, Michael Dregni, Whitehorse Press 2005 ISBN 978-1884313523: "in 1902 the first motorscooter was created"

•Scooters by Pixel Pete, Eric Dregni, and Peter Martin, MotorBooks International 2005 ISBN 978-1610591751: "The Auto-Glide was an afterthought to Cushman. 'The idea of making a motorscooter was to build and sell more engines,' according to Robert Ammon."

•Scooter mania! by Eric Dregni, MBI Pub. 1998 ISBN 978-0760304464: "A history of the motorscooter from its beginnings in the early 1900s, through its popularity in the 1950s and 1960s, to its status today."

•James Bond: The Spy Who Loved Me by Ian Fleming, Viking 1962 ISBN 978-0670910472: "The prices of secondhand cars in America were too high, as were the running costs, and I suddenly fell in love with the idea of a motorscooter."

•Absolute Beginners by Colin MacInnes, Allison & Busby 1959 ISBN 978-0749011406: "And then we meet like travelers, and I tell him of the wonders of my section of the capital, real and fabled, and he tells me of his sports activities and his saving for a motorscooter, and of which side of the books a debit item goes in at the municipal, or a credit does."

•The Short Reign of Pippin IV by John Steinbeck, Penguin 1957 ISBN 978-1440628627: "It did not materialize, by in his explorations around Paris and its outskirts, Pippin putts around on a motorscooter."

I could go on and on, but I don't have time to add another hundred sources. So let's agree with Jim Lehrer's Otis, stop this decade-long pendant-off, change the name of this page to motorscooter, make Scooter (motorcycle) the redirect, and be done with it. scooteristi (talk) 18:53, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

You described me as one of the "people who have never ridden, owned, sold, or repaired a motorscooter and have zero connection to the scootering lifestyle" did you not? And you do not, in fact, know what you're talking about, correct? Are you in any position to judge any of the editors here?

So all I have to do is cite more than 14 books and movies that say scooter instead of motorscooter and you'll be done here, is that right? How about double that, say 30? First off, three of your quotes use scooter, not motorscooter right there in the title: Scooters by Pixel Pete, Scooter mania!, and The Scooter Bible by Eric Dregni. The very authorities you cite don't feel the need to use motorscooter. Yet you count that as evidence because you can find one mention of the term inside the book? It appears the game you're playing is "heads I win, tails you lose". I think not. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:13, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Dennis Bratland exactly ZERO of my sources has "scooter (motorcycles)" in the title. Please find me any source on this planet, aside from Wikipedia, that uses the totally awkward construct "scooter (motorcycles)". Just one. Explain to me why the kick scooter page is "kick scooter" and not "scooter (skateboard)" or the mobility scooter page is "mobility scooter" and not "scooter (wheelchair)"? This silly discussion is like arguing that the airplane page should really be called "plane (aircraft)" because most people informally drop the "air". Not to mention the fact that the vast majority of motorscooters sold on this planet are under 50cc and therefore legally are MOPEDS NOT MOTORCYCLES. As a matter of fact the non-motorcycle market share of the motorscooter market is almost 50% higher than the share of the motorscooter market that overlaps with the legal definition of motorcycle. Since you appear to be from Washington state, I will provide their definitions of moped, motor-driven cycle, motorcycle, and motorized foot scooter as Washington's definitions align with the most broadly accepted definitions worldwide. scooteristi (talk) 09:36, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

As much as I empahisize with scooteristi, Dennis Bratland is correct - WP:COMMONNAME would see that the article should be called "scooter" because most people refer to them as scooters. Motorscooter would be the more correct official name, but Wikipedia uses the common name. (and I am a scooter person.I've got 5 of them). In common parlance, they are either called "Vespa" or "scooter", by the scooter community I guess -see the book keyword hits on google n gram Deathlibrarian (talk) 03:50, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

*sigh* that would make perfect sense, if we didn't need to distinguish motorscooters from maxiscooters from motorcyles colloquially being called "scooters" from motorized scooters from kickscooters from Darth Maul's hoverscooter in The Phantom Menace from air scooters from knee scooters from mobility scooters from diving scooters from ice scooters from avian scooters from insect scooters from the dozens of people, bands, and fictional characters named "Scooter". The scooter disambiguation page is there for a reason. And Vespa is merely one brand in a market segment that has included dozens of marques and manufacturers, I would never call a Lambretta or Kymco a "Vespa". One thing I can guarantee you is that motorscooters are NEVER commonly, or even rarely for that matter, referred to as "scooter (motorcycles)", therefore by the very Wikipedia rule you just cited Deathlibrarian the current name is inappropriate. scooteristi (talk) 09:36, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate the list of scooters! My point about "vespa" is if you have a vespa, a lot of people will say vespa rather than scooter. "How'd you get there? "On my vespa" or "on my Lambretta".... "Took the Vespa to work". You wouldn't say took the Yamaha to work, or the Douglas, or the Kymco. My understanding of WP:commonname is it applied to the first part of the title, but not what's in the brackets - so it applies to the scooter part of "scooter (motorcycles)". But Scooter is definitely more common than Motorscooter. I did want to include Motorscooter in the name, but in the brackets.Deathlibrarian (talk) 13:49, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

So what you don't like is parenthetical disambiguation? What would you replace it with? You could argue that this should be the primary topic, moving Scooter to Scooter (disambiguation) and Scooter (motorcycle) to Scooter based on pageviews. But if you really can't stand seeing parenthetical disambiguation after a topic title, then what would we call Scooter (band)? What do we call Scooter (muppet)?

All we can do here is decide what to do within the framework of Wikipedia's article naming guidelines. If you think the guidelines themselves have to change, the place to talk about that is at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab). If you can briefly explain what is wrong and how you could make it better, you could get somewhere.

As far as I'm concerned, the word "scooter" in English is overloaded with meanings and that's just how the language is. Every time anyone sees a new kind of vehicle and they don't know what to call it, they default to "scooter". Honestly the first Vespa was a motorcycle and if we'd called it a motorcycle, everything would be fine. It doesn't matter that there is a distinguishable scooter culture; you could say sport bikes and Harley cruisers have different cultures too but not because the machines are fundamentally different. It's because people arbitrarily reify and fetishize.

Anyway, go to Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) and kick the idea around. Who knows? Or propose a new primary topic. Maybe the Scooter (band) fans won't make a fuss. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 17:11, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

⅔ of all motorscooters sold are definitionally NOT motorcycles so the page name "scooter (motorcycles)" is wrong on multiple levels, you would have to go with "scooter (⅓ of the time also a motorcycle)" to be accurate. I do not have a problem moving Scooter to Scooter (disambiguation), that is a workable compromise. scooteristi (talk) 19:37, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

scooteristi, as a fellow scooter person (I've got 5, all classics) I fully empathise, but based on Wiki rules, Dennis Bratland is correct. The page has to be called *Scooter* because of WP common name, and the information in the parenthesis (Parenthetical disambiguation) has to be for context, it can't be used for an alternate version of the name , according to WP:QUALIFIER. I actually wanted to change the title, and checked it up after Dennis pointed it out. Deathlibrarian (talk) 23:43, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

I do not have any strong thoughts either way on this, but I should mention that I've seen (only from looking at the background(s) of the editor(s) concerned) a modified small wheel motorcycle described as a "scooter" (Mod Dam 1199 R, out of Honda Grom) and I also know from the song Bad Motor Scooter (hmm....can't find the vinyl, presently) that scooter is American slang for motorcycle.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 15:17, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Often minibikes and small motorcycles like the Mustang and Honda Grom are referred to colloquially as "scooters". Often Harley-Davidsons are also referred to colloquially as "scooters". Often proper motorscooters like Vespas and Lambrettas are also referred to colloquially as "mopeds" or "Italian shopping trolleys". scooteristi (talk) 19:37, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

• Continuing this is pointless and disruptive. I've requested administrative closure of this discussion at Wikipedia:Closure requests, per Wikipedia:Consensus, WP:SNOW, WP:LAME, and WP:SPIDEY. Multiple editors have tried to explain that MOS guidelines don't give these ideas a prayer and the whole thing is DOA. The place to talk about changing the guidelines is Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab), or to address frustrations with how Wikipedia works more broadly, try Wikipedia:Teahouse. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:52, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.