Talk:Scientology officials
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This article was nominated for deletion on 17 January 2011 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
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Notability
editThis discussion concerned an earlier page title. A change of article title and focus renders the topic moot. Cambial — foliar❧ 08:54, 26 April 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
The WP:GNG and specific WP:LISTN criteria are that the topic itself - i.e. Scientology officials as a list or as a group - need to be covered as such in reliable sources. There is no evidence of this at present in the current references, and I don't see such coverage in reliable sources. While some of the individuals on this list are certainly notable (while others are not), that does not translate into notability for this article. We already have a List of Scientologists article, and as has already been pointed out by others on this talk page this article is unsupported overkill. Cambial — foliar❧ 00:09, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
You claim of me that I already quoted from wp:notability; it's my position that it supports what I wrote. You call a refusal to give you further quotes on demand " You insult me with claims of being "evasive" and refer to me saying I find that an extraordinary and amusing view. I'll not waste time on it. Cambial — foliar❧ 16:20, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
Arbitrary breakedit@Cambial Yellowing: Who pointed out ... on this talk page this article is unsupported overkill? Diff or wikilink, please. Grorp (talk) 02:45, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
"Scientology officials" as a groupeditThe term "Scientology official" is a non-scientologese catchall term encompassing any Scientology employee or volunteer (the de rigueur term nowadays) who holds any post (position) within the Scientology network of organizations, including those with or without management or executive powers. "Scientology officials" are also known as:
The term "Scientology official" excludes anyone considered a "member of Scientology"—who are all "junior" to every staff member. Members are covered in the Wikipedia article List of Scientologists. Per WP:LISTN, Such "Scientology officials" have repeatedly and frequently been documented, discussed, reported on, covered, announced, described, noted, listed, divulged, published, and publicized ad nauseum, and mentioned as a group or as lists or as categories or as individuals numerous times over an extended period of time by multiple third-party independent reliable sources. Such sources include books, reports and news articles, such as, but not limited to:
@Cambial Yellowing: you are welcome to refer to these sources to see for yourself the vast coverage of the topic of "Scientology officials" by an assortment of writers from different countries spanning 57 years. Grorp (talk) 05:27, 29 August 2023 (UTC) References
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Requested move 17 April 2024
edit- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Speedy moved as proposed – revert of recent undiscussed move. There is no need for a formal RM discussion to justify such a revert. Speedy reverts can be simply executed or requested at WP:RMTR#Requests to revert undiscussed moves. The burden for needing to convince others to rename an article should fall on the person who wants to move an article away from a stable title, not the person who wants it moved back. (non-admin closure) — BarrelProof (talk) 14:07, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
Church of Scientology officials → Scientology officials – The article should be restored to Scientology officials. A week ago, an editor renamed the article without any prior discussion. I objected to the move, as did another editor. Attempts at dialog have been futile; evidence/reasons have been unconsidered. Article was correctly named and in line with other usage in Wikipedia, including matching the Category:Scientology officials, language used in other wiki articles, alignment with titles of many other wiki articles (ex. List of Scientology organizations, Scientology front groups, Scientology and law, Tax status of Scientology in the United States, and others), alignment with common usage by news agencies and scholars (as mentioned in talk page discussion #Changed without prior discussion to Church of Scientology officials), and several other technical and legal-based arguments for keeping the original name, Scientology officials. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 07:26, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
Make one unified list
editI propose that we should remove the separate subheadings of current/deceased/former in the List of Scientology officials, and make it just one unified list (alphabetical by last name).
Reasons:
- For those in the "Current" section: We won't necessarily know when someone dies, or is kicked off of staff, or leaves Scientology. Thus, maintaining this section to see when someone needs to be moved out of the section is next to impossible.
- For those in the "Deceased" section: Each entry already begins with a year of death, making those entries easy to spot if they were mixed in with live people in a single unified list.
- For those in the "Former" section: Ambiguous; does it mean former scientologist or only former staff/official? By being a separate alphabetical list from the "Current" section, it makes it hard to find someone you're looking for by name, because there are 3 alphabetical lists you have to scroll through. We should be able to include mention in each of these relatively small paragraphs that the person has left Scientology (or left staff) without putting their entry under a separate section. In fact, all but one (Jessica Feshbach) already have such content (mention being former, or leaving, or publishing something only an ex-scientologist would publish) without needing to put them under the heading of "Former".
▶ I am Grorp ◀ 06:53, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- I don't have a view about current/deceased; these could perhaps go in a sortable table (?)
- If living people are no longer associated with Scientology, including them in the same list as current workers in the group presents a problem given BLP policies. It's quite widely considered a derogatory thing to say someone is affiliated with Scientology, even by merely including them on a list. Where we have RS that indicate they are no longer associated with the CoS at all we should keep them separate. Cambial — foliar❧ 22:48, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- These paragraphs are not about people's personal lives, nor are we including "anyone and everyone who were ever on staff". These blurbs are about those who hold/held official positions or actions within Scientology while on staff, and may include their related activities after being on staff such as: litigation with Scientology, or writing a book about their time on staff. The individuals on the list are those who are already publicly mentioned in books, news articles or scholarly works, or have made themselves publicly known as being an ex-staff member. A sortable-table doesn't solve the problem about knowing if someone is no longer an active official. If we have a reliable source about it, we write something about it in their entry in the list; if we don't, then we really can't say they are former staff. Also, tables tend to limit the amount of information you can say about someone and are more appropriate for "few sentence" type content, not paragraphs. In most cases, these individuals are mentioned in other Wikipedia articles. Blurbs here allow us to link to a "mini staff background" from those other articles without having to include their background for context in the other articles. The items here are not meant to cover everything about their life like a standalone BLP might. Readers wouldn't be coming to this article to find "ex-staff" or "current staff" in general (because this is not a directory). They would instead come here to find out something about a particular individual they are interested in. Perhaps sent here by wikilink from another Wikipedia article which mentions that individual by name. Those who are wiki-notable may also have their own standalone article, but some others (like the Aznarans) are notable enough to mention, but maybe not enough for a standalone article. I would rather such content be put here than make a stub-article. I made an edit to clean up each of the entries so they would be able to be put into one unified alphabetical list regardless of current/former/deceased status. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:42, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- You're right about a table limiting the information (at least without the table becoming too unwieldy to be useful). BLP policy applies to all aspects of living people, not only their personal lives. We thus need to ensure we're not implying something at a glance (i.e. by inclusion on a list) that RS indicate is no longer the case. Cambial — foliar❧ 12:36, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- These paragraphs are not about people's personal lives, nor are we including "anyone and everyone who were ever on staff". These blurbs are about those who hold/held official positions or actions within Scientology while on staff, and may include their related activities after being on staff such as: litigation with Scientology, or writing a book about their time on staff. The individuals on the list are those who are already publicly mentioned in books, news articles or scholarly works, or have made themselves publicly known as being an ex-staff member. A sortable-table doesn't solve the problem about knowing if someone is no longer an active official. If we have a reliable source about it, we write something about it in their entry in the list; if we don't, then we really can't say they are former staff. Also, tables tend to limit the amount of information you can say about someone and are more appropriate for "few sentence" type content, not paragraphs. In most cases, these individuals are mentioned in other Wikipedia articles. Blurbs here allow us to link to a "mini staff background" from those other articles without having to include their background for context in the other articles. The items here are not meant to cover everything about their life like a standalone BLP might. Readers wouldn't be coming to this article to find "ex-staff" or "current staff" in general (because this is not a directory). They would instead come here to find out something about a particular individual they are interested in. Perhaps sent here by wikilink from another Wikipedia article which mentions that individual by name. Those who are wiki-notable may also have their own standalone article, but some others (like the Aznarans) are notable enough to mention, but maybe not enough for a standalone article. I would rather such content be put here than make a stub-article. I made an edit to clean up each of the entries so they would be able to be put into one unified alphabetical list regardless of current/former/deceased status. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:42, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
RfC on nesting of subheadings/levels for a list with some subsections
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Which style of subheading nesting should be used for the lists of people in this article? (The difference is in the last subheading, "Former officials".)
Option #1
== Notable Scientology officials ==
- (those presumed current in office go here)
=== Deceased ===
== Former officials ==
Option #2
== Notable Scientology officials ==
- (those presumed current in office go here)
=== Deceased ===
=== Former officials ===
Option #3
- (Something else, please specify)
Over the last 18 months, the nesting of the list with its subheadings has changed numerous times and has not resolved with talk page discussions, leading to this RfC to try to settle the issue. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 06:38, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Or to put it more simply, should "Former officials" be a level 2 section in its own right, or a level 3 subsection within the "Notable Scientology officials" section? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:32, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, that's the question du jour. Personally, I think it should be a single list without any subheadings. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 19:01, 16 July 2024 (UTC)