Talk:Scientific atheism

Redirect

I've redirected this page to Marxist–Leninist atheism as the newly written article seemed to violate WP:COATRACK, being a sporadic collection of uses of the words "scientific atheism" that juxtaposed the ideas of New Atheists such as Richard Dawkins with the state atheism practiced by the Soviet Union. The Annales Academiae Scientiarum Fennicae states that "Scientific atheism is an integral part of the Marxist-Leninist world-view", using the term to refer to Marxist-Leninist atheism. Likewise, a principal English text about the topic, written by historian James Thrower is titled Marxist-Leninist "scientific Atheism" and the Study of Religion and Atheism in the USSR. Its clear that the term refers to the Soviet doctrine and as a result, the article has been appropriately redirected. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 05:20, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps I don't adequately understand WP:COATRACK, but it seems that what is clear to you is not so clear to me. There should be consideration of whether this page should have become a disambiguation page between the two divergent uses of the label "Scientific Atheism". Marxist-Leninist atheism and, perhaps, New Atheism. Was this redirect the result of a consensus process somewhere?  —jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 06:44, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Hi User:Jmcgnh, thanks for your comment. I am not aware of many major sources that treat "New Atheism" and "Scientific Atheism" as synonyms. The new editor who wrote the article did not place any sources under the section titled "New Atheism". If you find references that do, you are most welcome to convert this into a disambiguation page with the entries "Marxist-Leninist atheism" and "New Atheism". I hope this helps and I appreciate your input. Best, Anupam^Talk 06:54, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

True, nobody who knows about such things would consider them synonymous. But I thought one purpose of disambiguation pages was to anticipate possible confusions that less informed users of Wikipedia might have. That's a somewhat different standard than reliable sources. For now, I'm satisfied to let this be, but do you mind if I go poke the editor who was trying to take the page in a new direction and see if they would like to put in the additional effort?  —jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 07:13, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

I disagree. I translated this article from Russian Wikiepdia (Article). I think, that this something different. "Marxism–Leninism holds that religion is the opium of the people, in the sense of promoting passive acceptance of suffering on Earth in the hope of eternal reward. Therefore, Marxism–Leninism advocates the abolition of religion and the acceptance of atheism." This means that Marxism-Leninism is simply against religion and prevented its spread. Scientific Atheism is a belief system, to consider the existence of gods and other supernatural beings, phenomena and forces as a scientific hypothesis. This means that Scientific Atheism is a belief system. There quite a bit in common. Conclusion: Marxist–Leninist atheism is a part of the wider Marxist–Leninist philosophy and Scientific atheism is a part of science where people discuss Gods and science today. --P (talk) 18:15, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

The academic sources in English that I've provided above all consistently reference scientific atheism as part of Marxist-Leninist ideology. The Four Horsemen never refer to themselves as "Scientific atheists", and therefore, a disambiguation page would actually be misleading. The term "Scientific atheism" (Nauchnyj ateizm) is used chiefly in Soviet contexts for Marxist-Leninist atheism and that is why there's a redirect. Yet one more source from the renowned historian Paul Froese demonstrates this. If both of you really feel that a disambiguation page should list both Marxist-Leninist atheism and New Atheism, then you're welcome to have it. However, as I've mentioned above, I don't think it's a good idea and think that most sources don't equate Scientific Atheism with New Atheism. Your assertion of scientific atheism as a separate belief system appears to be original research, rather than how academic sources speak of the term. I hope this clears things up. Thanks, Anupam^Talk 19:01, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

The text Marxist-Leninist "scientific Atheism" and the Study of Religion and Atheism in the USSR by the historian James Thrower, on page 149, has a quotation that states:

Scientific atheism is an integral part (neot 'emlemaya chast') of the Marxist-Leninist world-view. As a complete system, Marxism-Leninism comprises dialectical and historical materialism, scientific atheism, ethics, aesthetics, etc.

On the same page, another quote states that:

Being a philosophical science, scientific atheism emanates from the basic tenets of dialectical and historical materialism, both in explaining the origin of religion in its scientific criticism of it. (ibid., p 272)

As a result, it is clear that the article about Marxist-Leninist atheism should mention the information given in the latter quote, i.e. that Marxist-Leninist scientific atheism seeks to explain religion's origins and provide a scientific criticism from it. When I have more time in the latter part of the summer, I can improve that article by making those additions there. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 19:39, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

I don't wish to needlessly draw out this discussion, but here are three Google hits on "Scientific Atheism" that seem blithely unaware of the the Soviet-era meaning of the term:

1. The Rise of Scientific Atheism (Closer to Truth - Television interview series)
2. The Scientific Atheism Fallacy: How Science Declares that God Is Dead, But Can't Prove It (Psychology Today - column)
3. The Critical Relevance of Scientific Atheism in the Modern World (Atheist Foundation of Australia - web article)

Which proves what? Only that the set of people who think "Scientific Atheism" is something like New Atheism is non-empty. While none of these would be considered academic sources, they represent a sample of current popular thought. While the Four Horsemen don't call their beliefs Scientific Atheism, some of their opponents and proponents seem to.

P, do you want to put together a proposed disambig page? Is there some additional forum where we should try to get consensus?  —jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:02, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

The websites that you provided are polemical rather than academic and use the term scientific atheism inconsistently. However, like I said, if you really want to make this a disambiguation page, you are more than welcome to. Cheers, Anupam^Talk 20:18, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Let's make disambig page. -P (talk) 00:06, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks User:Renzoy16. I wouldn't have known how to do that and would have had to stumble into it. I'll add the task of disambiguating the – to me surprising – number of incoming links to my list (I'm not sure doing it as [[Marxist-Leninist atheism|Scientific atheism]] as here is generally considered a correct way to do it WP:INTDAB).  —jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:47, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

One article and two templates fixed. It seems that "Scientific" had been on both the Theism and Atheism sidebar templates. The latter two accounted for the large number of incoming links.  —jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:22, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

When I went to fix the incoming links for Scientific atheism, I learned that State atheism and [[Scientific atheism]] were already being used on the Atheism and Theism templates. To my non-specialist eye, the topics State atheism and Marxist–Leninist atheism are indistinguishable, with the latter simply being a more specific designation. The two-word combination "scientific atheism" does not appear currently on either the main Atheism page or the State atheism page and appears only in the titles to references on the Marxist–Leninist atheism page.

I also learned, in my disambiguation education, that DAB pages with only two links, as this one now has, are somewhat deprecated.

All that being said, here's what I think should ultimately happen:

1. The Marxist–Leninist atheism page should be merged into State atheism, perhaps with a refactoring between the philosophy itself and the historical political implications for freedom of religion, etc
2. A "Science and atheism" section should be added to the Atheism article to coordinate the various threads including New atheism and other discussions of the relationship atheism has to the interaction of science and religion. That new section would need a mention (can sections have hatnotes other than "main article"?) of the Soviet-era claim on the term "scientific atheism" with a link to State atheism
3. This [[Scientific atheism]] disambiguation page would then be converted to a redirect to [[Atheism#Science and atheism]]

But this is the sort of thing that can't be accomplished in a day.  —jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 06:14, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Not all atheist states are Marxist-Leninist states. For example, North Korea follows Juche ideology. The government imposed Cult of Reason during the French Revolution was also not Marxist-Leninist. Therefore, I am opposed to merging such a large article, Marxist-Leninist atheism, into the State atheism article. As I mentioned above, I will take some time later this summer to work on the Marxist-Leninist atheism article. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 17:19, 18 June 2016 (UTC)