Talk:Sancus

Semo Sancus and Tec Sans

Perhaps, some information about the relationship between Semo Sancus and the Etruscan god, Tec Sans, is in order.

We now have this in Palmer's "Locket Gold, Lizard Green" (see article).Haploidavey (talk) 15:12, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Organisation

My apologies for taking so long to get around to this; as far as I can tell, the article now contains whatever's to be found in google-scholar (oblique references, for the most part) on this obscure deity; it needs reorganisation. Semo's a tricky subject, and so far I've done no more than dip my toe in the water. Some while back, Aldrasto put forward what seem pretty sound hunches on the topic, inviting comment from me on my talk-page, then said "I am afraid of embarking in endless academic discussions based on flimsy evidence". Agreed. That would not be helpful. Agreed also that while some of the evidence is flimsy, it's still part of the scholarship; the scholarship's going to be difficult to organise. I'll do my best, but will need a few days to digest what's here. I tentatively agree with Aldrasto's suggestion that the article be organised according to theonyms, names, epithets, especially as these are probably functionally based, and therefore have contextual significance. Input and insight would be very welcome from any quarters. Haploidavey (talk) 15:12, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the support.

I made a thorough investigation of the sources and the theonym Salus Semonia looks to be an artifact: there is no epigraphic proof, Salus is always mentioned by herself whether at Praeneste, Pisaurum, Horta or Bagnacavallo. The only reason for such a supposition is the list of festivities (feriae) given in Macrobius: it is just a list that includes Salus, Semonia, Seia, Segetia and Tutilina. Now this can be either a list of independent if somehow related deities or a group as a whole (less probably). Pliny NH 18.8 and Tertullian De Spectaculis VIII 3 mention just he last 3 together (Seia etc.). Perhaps this could support the inference that Salus and Semonia were more stricly related, but it just an inference. It looks to me that Semonia being the deity of the seeds it should have been certainly related closely to Seia deity of germs or sprouts, Segetia/ Messia deity of the crops and Tutilina of the preservation of harvested crops (tutus secure, tutare to make safe, tutela wardenship)(cf. Augustin Civ. D. 4.8). However scholars since Wissowa, Norden (on the carmen Arvale) and Latte down to Coarelli, Anna Clark etc. go on talking of a Salus Semonia, perhaps because her temple was located on the Collis Salutaris next to Collis Mucialis, where stood that of Semo Sancus. J. B. Carter (entry Salus in Encyclop. of Relig. by J. Hastings) on the basis of Wissowa says on the Collis Salutaris have been found inscriptions to Semo Sancus but does not cite even one. However this fact too would not confirm that Salus was named Semonia. This is just one of the problems with Sancus: Mars, Hercules and their relationship with Iupiter are the other big one.Aldrasto11 (talk) 05:29, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I must apologise to readers. There is indeed an inscription bearing the expression Salus Semonia: it is presented/discussed in a work by R. E. A. Palmer Studies of the northern Campus Martius in ancient Rome 1990. The inscriptions looks to be a commemoration of the return to Rome of Augustus in 8 B.C. after 9 years had elapsed, i.e. it was put up in 1 C.E. by a head of the vicus. Palmer and others agree that the 1st line (reading Mercurio) and the 17th, last one (reading Salus Semonia posuit Populi Victoria) are both later additions, the last line having been added later than the 1st. (The inscription was found in the bed of the Tiber). Palmer states that we do not know anything about this association and refers to Wissowa's manual pp. 139-141. It looks a rather late testimony.

The only ancient source that says anything precise about Semonia is Festus s.v. supplicium:...Simmius Capito says that when a citizen was put to death, the custom required a sacrifice to Semonia, which consisted in the immolation of a lamb of 2 years, with the aim of purifying the citizens from any bad reward for the deed and thence the head of the condemned and his fortune could be vowed to the deity to which they were due.

This looks interesting as it connects Semonia and Semo Sancus in several ways: with the issue of legal sanctions and ranking of the gods who both deserved the same kind of sacrifice (hostia bidennis or bidentis).

Another aspect is the location of the 2 shrines of Sancus and Salus in the vicinity of the main road of the Quirinal named in augustan times Alta Semita, (also the region). It looks this name should be related to Semo and Semonia.Aldrasto11 (talk) 11:24, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Article editing

It is almost fine, notes still need work.Aldrasto11 (talk) 05:42, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Added possible Hittite etymologies, though in doing so, saw that the IDS dictionary suggests the Hittite 'priest' word was borrowed from Sumerian sanga 'priest'--https://ids.clld.org/units/208-911. An argument could be made that what we have is a long chain of borrowings: Sumerian sanga (probable source of Akkadian sakku 'rites') > Hittite saklai and sakunni- > Etruscan sacna (though we can't know what this meant for sure) > the Latin and other Italic terms discussed here. The last step is hypothesized in the Blackwell History of the Latin Language (James Clackson, Geoffrey Horrocks, 1999) :https://books.google.com/books?id=4fdFv71U81cC&pg=PT64&lpg=PT64&dq=borrowings+into+latin+from+etruscan+sacer&source=bl&ots=5CjfDyEs52&sig=ACfU3U0dT9g0VB8tX0w_tpCAYFiS3tR_dg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjmg4KGsPX0AhXxlIkEHQOnAFAQ6AF6BAgQEAM#v=onepage&q=borrowings%20into%20latin%20from%20etruscan%20sacer&f=false

Speaking against this is the apparent ablaut behavior with long and short /a/ suggesting a second laryngeal, as well as the IE looking -n- infix (though note the variation between Sumerian and Akkadian). Anyways, very nice work on this article! Johundhar (talk) 17:17, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Describing gods as Sabine

There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome#Describing gods as Sabine which relates to recent edits here and in other articles. NebY (talk) 18:31, 29 June 2023 (UTC)