Talk:San Marino/Archive 1

Archive 1

Government

There is a Politics section for this article, but no Government section is present. Perhaps we should distinguish the two. Politics is a more precise subject than Government. Especially since San Marino has one of the oldest constitutions, we ought to clear this matter up so that it is easier to sort through. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.62.249.129 (talk) 06:57, 20 June 2010‎

War with Sweden

This sounds fascinating, but I can find no information by casually surfing the web. Does anybody know more? (This "fact" was added by anonymous user 212.235.107.70 - the only contribution from that IP address) — Hippietrail 09:36, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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San Marino was allied with nations at war with Sweden in the Thirty Years' War (1618-1648) and was officially at war with them at the time. For whatever reason, San Marino never signed the Treaty of Westphalia ending that war, and thus officially never ended hostilities with Sweden. When this was discovered, centuries later, the two nations issued a joint statement on television on May 4, 1996, announcing that Sweden and San Marino were no longer at war. John

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According to Google Answers, this "war" is in fact just a myth. Interestingly enough, it lists this article as one of its sources. Who to believe? Aoi 10:48, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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Good find. I doubted the story when I found it in this article so I looked for a decent source and figured Encarta would be OK as a reference. I guess more research is in order. --Beirne 12:42, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

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I went to the Swedish government web page and wrote to their Foreign Ministry to ask them about this. Since they referred to this as a legend I think they replied that this isn't true, but they don't quite say it:

According to legend, the representative of the principality of San Marino (which formally sided with the Catholics) at the Peace of Westphalia had been waiting for his remuneration for a long time and in the end, tired of not having received it, simply got on his horse and rode home. The Treaty, therefore, was never signed by a representative of San Marino. Sweden has diplomatic relations with San Marino and, at present, Sweden's ambassador to Slovenia is concurrenly accredited to San Marino.

Regards,

Marlene Ärnborg Information Officer

So is it time to remove the story, or at least describe it as a legend? --Beirne 00:30, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

Before unification of Italy

The article says that San Marino became surrounded by Italy when it was unified in the 19th century. So on which border(s) did it lie prior to this time? — Hippietrail 09:28, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Between Montefeltro and Rimini, on the border between Urbino and the Marches, thus by the 19th century between Umbria and the Papal States, now between Emilia-Romagna and the Marche.... I think. Wetman 09:49, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Before the Italian Unification, in the XIX century, San Marino was surrounded by the Papal State. For a while, during the napoleonic age, San Marino lied between the Cisalpine (later Italian) Republic and the Papal State, and then was surrounded by the "first" modern kingdom of Italy (Regno Italico. 1805 -1814). Ciao, Dedo. 16:37 14 DEC 2006.

Location maps available for infoboxes of European countries

On the WikiProject Countries talk page, the section Location Maps for European countries had shown new maps created by David Liuzzo, that are available for the countries of the European continent, and for countries of the European Union exist in two versions. From November 16, 2006 till January 31, 2007, a poll had tried to find a consensus for usage of 'old' or of which and where 'new' version maps. Please note that since January 1, 2007 all new maps became updated by David Liuzzo (including a world locator, enlarged cut-out for small countries) and as of February 4, 2007 the restricted licence that had jeopardized their availability on Wikimedia Commons, became more free. At its closing, 25 people had spoken in favor of either of the two presented usages of new versions but neither version had reached a consensus (12 and 13), and 18 had preferred old maps.
As this outcome cannot justify reverting of new maps that had become used for some countries, seconds before February 5, 2007 a survey started that will be closed soon at February 20, 2007 23:59:59. It should establish two things:

• whether the new style maps may be applied as soon as some might become available for countries outside the European continent (or such to depend on future discussions),
• which new version (with of without indicating the entire European Union by a separate shade) should be applied for which countries.

Please read the discussion (also in other sections α, β, γ, δ, ε, ζ, η, θ) and in particular the arguments offered by the forementioned poll, while realizing some comments to have been made prior to updating the maps, and all prior to modifying the licences, before carefully reading the presentation of the currently open survey. You are invited to only then finally make up your mind and vote for only one option.
There mustnot be 'oppose' votes; if none of the options would be appreciated, you could vote for the option you might with some effort find least difficult to live with - rather like elections only allowing to vote for one of several candidates. Obviously, you are most welcome to leave a brief argumentation with your vote. Kind regards. — SomeHuman 19 Feb2007 00:37 (UTC)

Enclave?

San Marino is an enclave in Italy I don't think you can claim that. An enclave implies that there is a biggeer part of San Marion somewhere outside Italy Fornadan (t) 11:00, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Here is the definition of enclave from Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=enclave):

1. A country or part of a country lying wholly within the boundaries of another.

2. A distinctly bounded area enclosed within a larger unit: ethnic enclaves in a large city.

--Beirne 12:26, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

Demographics

The following sentence troubles me:

• Being completely surrounded by Italy, there is no significant difference between the population of San Marino and Italy and many Italians live in San Marino.

The word "population" is certainly wrong, as it suggests the population of Italy and the population of San Marino are roughly the same, clearly an absurd statement. I was going to simply change "population" to "demographics", but I now wonder if even that is correct. Just because it is completely surrounded by Italy and many Italians live there, does not mean that SM's demographics are similar to those of Italy. The population base of SM is far smaller than Italy's, so very different demographic outcomes are surely statistically likely. Who knows the real story? JackofOz 05:33, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps changing "population" to "populace" would fix this problem? Populace seems to imply a less demographic-based meaning of the word

With a population of <30,000, you'd think that there would be a great deal of intermarriage between Italians and San Marinoans. I am visiting Italy on a study abroad opportunity next summer but I do not know yet what region of the country I will be placed in. I'd be very much interested in visiting San Marino after reading this article. Tmorrisey 00:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC) (yeah yeah I know, "no original research" before anyone starts yelling.)

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It doesn't state it in the article, but isn't San Marino the world's only extant nation which can say it took its independence from the Roman Empire? I'm pretty sure that it is.

Smallest?

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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

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The Principality of Monaco or Monaco (French: Principauté de Monaco or Monaco; Monegasque: Munegu or Principatu de Munegu) is a city state and the second-smallest country in the world (after the Vatican City), wedged in between the Mediterranean Sea and France along the French Riviera or Côte d'Azur (The Blue Coast). Consisting mostly of just the old town of Monaco and later built-up areas, it is also the most densely populated independent country in the world1. It is one of the European microstates.

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San Marino

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The Most Serene Republic of San Marino or San Marino (Italian: Serenissima Repubblica di San Marino or San Marino) is one of the smallest nations in the world. Located in southern Europe, it is landlocked by Italy, and is one of the European microstates.

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Hmm? Which is smallest? Tomas De Aquino 07:33, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

ONE of the smallest. Not THE smallest.

• • Fixed Donald Goldberg 03:41, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

History

During the early phase of the Italian unification process of the 19th century, San Marino served as a haven of refuge for numerous persons who were persecuted because of their support for Italian unity. In memory of this support, the leader of the newly unified Italy accepted the wish of San Marino not to be incorporated into the new Italian state.

It would seem to me, if SM was a haven for those who supported Italian unity, then you would think, when Italy was finally formed, that SM would want to join Italy, being an implicit supporter of a unified Italy and all ... --Canuckguy 05:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The Italian Wikipedia states that Giuseppe Garibaldi and his last remaining troops were first denied asylum in San Marino. When he reapplied, request was granted after Garibaldi promised full independence for San Marino in return for safe haven for him and his troops. Seems quite plausible... Sic? 14:12, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

CIA factbook content

I noticed some phrases taken directly from the CIA Factbook article on San Marino. Does their copyright / licence permit this?

See CIA World Factbook and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countries about the content and structure of the article -- User:Docu

CIA Factbook is public domain. 72.150.229.55 21:09, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Maps + Municipalities

Might i suggest that the subsection "Municipalities" in Geography be put into the politics section instead, with the municipalities map? Also the Geographic map of San Marino should be put in the Geography section. Bizzmag 14:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Music section

I think the current music section is of too much detail and of insufficient relevance for a top level country article. It currently contains:

"San Marino entered the Eurovision Song Contest for the first time, in 2008, with the band Miodio singing Complice. The group failed to make it to the Final from the first semi-final. They were one of only two countries - along with Ireland - to vote for the United Kingdom. The BBC subsequently published a magazine article on its website about San Marino, entitled "Britain's New Best Friend?" [1]."

Any opinions? Thanks/wangi (talk) 16:48, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

GDP

The GDP per capita in the infobox is listed as 12th in the world. However the page to which this information links shows San Marino as 25th in the world according to the CIA and unranked on the other lists. So how does one arrive at this figure?WikiDan61 (talk) 15:51, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

oldest constituion?

I believe the US has the oldest?

The U.S. Constitution is the oldest constitution still in effect in the world. Test your knowledge of this important document.

(http://www.whitehouse.gov/kids/constitution/quiz/)

The Constitution of the United States is the oldest Federal constitution in existence and was framed by a convention of delegates from twelve of the thirteen original states in Philadelphia in May 1787. The Constitution is the landmark legal document of the United States. (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/index.html)

Many people think of the United States as a young country. Yet it has the oldest written constitution among the major nations of the world. (http://student.britannica.com/comptons/article-9277514/United-States-Constitution)

The oldest federal constitution in existence was framed by a convention of delegates from twelve of the thirteen original states in Philadelphia in May 1787 (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0101025.html)

The oldest written national constitution in use, (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9026012/Constitution-of-the-United-States-of-America)

It is the oldest written constitution for an independent state in effect in the world. (http://www.asksam.com/ebooks/us-constitution/) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.194.239.224 (talk) 03:55, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I would assert that we change the language in the oldest constitution section to reflect the fact that this is debatable. Based on information I was able to find, the 1600 isn't a true constitution, but rather a collection of statutes bound together serving the purpose of a constitution. http://www.culturalpolicies.net/web/sanmarino.php?aid=511 http://www.loc.gov/law/help/guide/nations/sanmarino.html Jo7hs2 (talk) 01:00, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Death penalty

Was San Marino the first country to abolish the death penalty? 212.18.232.108 12:29, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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It was one of the first, in 1865. Venezuela abolished it in 1863. user:Jsc1973

No, the first country in the world to abolish death penalty was Grand Duchy of Tuscany, on November 30th, 1786. Gspinoza 12:49 6 mar 2007 (CET)

Actually Russia is the first. Elizabeth I abolished death penalty in all civilian courts of the Russian Empire as of 1753. Although Catherine II resurrected it (for exceptional cases of high treason and state crimes), the death penalty abolition held for over a century (until 1866 when it was re-instated for breaking cholera quarantine and conspiring to overthrow government through violence). Roobit (talk) 12:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Italian of San Marino?

Does San Marino have it's own national variety of Italian? If something is said about this in the article, I missed it. If it isn't already, something about this needs to be mentioned in the article. Gringo300 (talk) 16:22, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Nope, Standard Italian is spoken. The local vernacular dialect is Emiliano-Romagnolo, as stated in the article, which is shared with the neighbouring regions of Italy and has no official status. --93.45.210.191 (talk) 22:51, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Long worded

"In World War I, Italy declared war on Austria-Hungary on 23 May 1915. San Marino declared war on Austria-Hungary on 3 June 1915.[3] During WWII, San Marino initially declared war on Britain.[4] Then when Italy surrendered San Marino declared neutrality. September 21, 1944 San Marino declared war on Germany.[5]" This is a very long way of saying that San Marino followed directly what it's only neighbour and "host" country chose to do in the war, whether it liked to or not (to avoid being completely crushed by Italy for fighting them in a war JayKeaton (talk) 16:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

San Marino has been positively neutral since the 15th Century, I have removed those passages.Brutaldeluxe (talk) 21:17, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Jailing a head of state which refuses to take office

The following quote on the article's "politics" section states:

"If one gets elected to head of state, one may not refuse. If one chooses to refuse, one is jailed."

I find this statement, together with it's rather unbalanced wording and lack of detail to apear quite problematic, seeing as how isolated it is anyway . Anyone have any confirmations on this and further data to supply ? --93.185.50.19 (talk) 15:12, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Politics

Can anyone confirm that San Marino had a communist government after 1945? It is incorrect to state that there was a communist government from 2006-2008. The (small) communist party was only one of several parties in a left-wing coalition.JohnC (talk) 09:58, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

The communist party ruled together with the socialist party from 1945 to 1957. The loss of support for the government by four socialist MPs caused a near coup in 1957 and ended the coalition goverment[2]. You are correct on the second point. Brutal Deluxe (talk) 12:19, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Head of Government

Does San Marino have a head of government. I thought that the Captains Regent were the heads of state and the infobox mentions the Secretary of State for Foreign and Political Affairs, but is he the true head of government, or are the Captains Regent both the head of government and the head of state? Therequiembellishere 21:27, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I wrote to the government of San Marino; these are the emails:

from therequiembellishere@gmail.com

to info.segristituzionale@pa.sm

date Jul 15, 2007 8:30 AM

subject Head of Government

To whomever may be kind enough to answer this,

I must first and foremost apologise for not being able to compose this letter in Italian, as the time is late and I cannot do it at this moment in time.

Of course, I am not e-mailing you to tell of my insomnia, but to ask a question as someone who is avidly into geopolitics and as a contributor to the internet encyclopedia, Wikipedia. There is a question among the community as to whether Secretary of State for Foreign and Political Affairs Fiorenzo Stolfi is the true Head of Government of the Most Serene Republic of San Marino, or if the Captains-Regent Alessandro Mancini and Alessandro Rossi are the Heads of State and Heads of Government. I do not mean this as, for example, Suriname, where their President is the Head of State and Head of Government, though their Vice President exercises a role similar to a Prime Minister.

I would greatly appreciate a quick response as I will not have internet access after two weeks and would like to resolve the problem among the Wikipedia Community as quickly as possible.

Many thanks,

Benjamin (last name omitted)

from antonella.giardi.segristituzionale@pa.sm

to therequiembellishere@gmail.com

date Jul 18, 2007 4:51 AM

subject Fw: Head of Government

Fiorenzo Stolfi is Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and the Captains Regent Alessandro Mancini and Alessandro Rossi are Heads of State.

The State Congress (Governement) is a "corporate body" composed of 10 Secretary of State and there is no Head of Governement because this specific role is not provided for by our constitution.

Antonella Giardi

Therequiembellishere 23:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

But the Secretary of State for Foreign and Political Affairs is clearly the EQUIVALENT of a Prime Minister or "head of government" in other countries which have a parliamentary executive like that of San Marino, even though he is not OFFICIALLY the head of government. Tom129.93.17.168 (talk) 20:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

First elected disabled head of state?

Mirko Tomassoni is described as the first elected disabled head of state?

Uh, what about Franklin Roosevelt, who was wheelchair-bound? (Not saying he was the first, be he preceded Tomassoni.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.132.65.244 (talk) 00:29, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Right. I wasn't aware that Franklin D. Roosevelt contracted polio before being elected, another myth about San Marino is dispelled. Brutaldeluxe (talk) 16:31, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, maybe the first OPENLY disabled head of state. FDR actively concealed it, though it was well-known, and nobody openly mentioned it during his administration. What is Tomassoni's disability exactly? It is never mentioned. Bigmac31 (talk) 19:35, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

October 1, 2009

Help needed

New Captains Regent should have been inaugurated today to replace outgoing Cenci and Mina. Does anyone have any information on this? It is difficult to find but it is important to make tracks here because the current information is out of date. The same applies to Italian Wikipedia at the time of writing. Evlekis (talk) 15:28, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

transportation

Is it possible that there are 220 km of highways in the country of (illustration) 7,5 X 8 km=60km2 area? I dont think that it can fit in such a small teritory.Hammer of Habsburg (talk) 22:31, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

St Marinus

These article states that Marinus was a stonemason but the article about St marinus states that he was a blacksmith! And now, who is right or wrong?

According to German, Italian, Spanish and Dutch Wikipedias, as well as a few Catholic online sites, he was a stonemason who came to work on construction of Rimini fortification walls a few years before having to hide on Mt. Titano. Croatian Wikipedia claims he was a blacksmith. I'll try to find some additional reference, and then edit the Saint page, if that's OK Sic? 14:40, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I checked Spanish and Slovene wikipedia. Both claim that he was either a stonemason or a blacksmith (i.e. that it is not clear). My opinion: In these times when he lived he was probabbly both and maybe he had a couple of more trades as the specialisation of the kind known nowadays did not exist then, especially on a small island with small population.Hammer of Habsburg (talk) 22:42, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Small population leads to coalitions?

"Due to the small size of San Marino and its low population, it is difficult for any party to gain a pure majority and most of the time the government is run by a coalition" Why does a small population make coalition government more likely? Bobbragg (talk) 00:33, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Stamps

The article says Sammarinese stamps are "only valid for mail within the country". This is unclear - does it mean that you can only use them for mail to destinations inside San Marino (which seems unlikely) or simply that you can only post mail stamped with Sammarinese stamps in Sammarinese mailboxes (but it can be addressed to overseas destinations). This needs to be made clear - I suspect it is the latter, in which case why does it need to be spelt out? You couldn't post a letter with, say, a French stamp on it in Italy and expect it to be delivered! 143.252.80.100 (talk) 15:13, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes and no. Some microstates and small enclaves/exclaves are known to accept both stamps (theirs and the country who surrounds them). For example, Vatican City takes theirs and Italy's... therefore, in that case, it would make sense to say if San Marino takes italian stamps... Daniel32708 (talk) 06:13, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

World War II Neutrality isnt correct According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_Powers, San Marino declared war on on the UK. Not until the fall of Mussolini did a a new governement of San Marino declare neutrality. I will fix. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.3.250.42 (talk) 20:59, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Geography - Sentence I dont understand =

"San Marino has no level natural land; 100% of the nation-state is built on top of the range." Is it technical language? What does it mean? I dont understand this sentence (and I think the most wikipedia users). Ivan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.17.207.149 (talk) 12:48, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

At war or neutral?

This article says:

During World War II, San Marino declared war on the United Kingdom 17 September 1940.

The article on the Battle of San Marino says:

It was reported to have declared war against the United Kingdom in September 1940, though the Sanmarinese government later transmitted a message to the British government stating that it had not.

The second article at least notes it sources, so I guess San Marino was never officialy at war. Should this be changed? I just added a 'citation needed' tag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.176.235.94 (talk) 12:37, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Customs

Does San Marino have border control checkpoints? How do customs and passports/visa work? Is it part of the Schengen Area? -- Beland (talk) 17:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Orphaned references in San Marino

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of San Marino's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "CIA":

• From Nauru: Central Intelligence Agency (2009). "Nauru". The World Factbook. Retrieved 23 January 2010.
• From Mexico: Mexico. The World Factbook. CIA.
• From Côte d'Ivoire: "Côte d'Ivoire", [[The World Factbook]], CIA Directorate of Intelligence, 24 July 2008, retrieved 8 August 2008 {{citation}}: URL–wikilink conflict (help).
• From Austria: "The World Factbook — Austria". Central Intelligence Agency. 2009-05-14. Retrieved 2009-05-31.
• From Paraguay: "The World Factbook: Paraguay". Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). Retrieved 2008-02-27.
• From European Union: "European Union". The World Factbook. Central Intelligence Agency. Retrieved 11 October 2009. The evolution of the European Union (EU) from a regional economic agreement among six neighbouring states in 1951 to today's supranational organisation of 27 countries across the European continent stands as an unprecedented phenomenon in the annals of history.... The European Union has since 1957 created its common parliament, the president of the EU, the post of the foreign minister, European commission serving as the European government. The EU has also established its single currency, the Euro (€), practically used since the 1 January 2002, currently in use in 22 countries. The EU has also established the Schengen area, within the free movement of travelers, workers and residents is proclaimed by a treaty. It includes Austria, The Slovak Republic, Germany, Poland, The Czech Republic, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Hungary, Slovenia, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Portugal etc.
• From Venezuela: "Venezuela". The World Factbook. CIA. 1 July 2010. Retrieved 23 July 2010.
• From Religion in San Marino: "People of San Marino". CIA World Fact Book. Retrieved November 1, 2010.
• From Germany: CIA. "CIA Factbook". Retrieved 2010-10-23.
• From Armenia: "The World Factbook: Armenia". CIA. Retrieved 2007-11-15.
• From Romania: "Romania". CIA World Factbook. 2006. Retrieved 2008-08-31.
• From Iceland: "Iceland". The World Factbook. CIA. 20 January 2010. Retrieved 17 February 2010.
• From Cyprus: "Cyprus". The World Factbook. Central Intelligence Agency. Retrieved 9 February 2010.
• From Colombia: CIA (2007-12-13). "Ecuador". World Fact Book. Retrieved 2008-01-05.

Reference named "state":

• From Religion in San Marino: "San Marino". International Religious Freedom Report 2005. US Department of State: Diplomacy in Action. Retrieved 2010-11-02.
• From Abkhazia: Georgia: International Religious Freedom Report 2005. The United States Department of State. Retrieved on May 24, 2007.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 16:57, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Contradiction - Tourist economy

The introduction states that "The country's economy mainly relies on tourism," while the 'Economy' section states that "The tourist sector contributes over 2.2% of San Marino's GDP," which is a seemingly small amount. The 'Economy of San Marino' page states that more than 50% of GNP comes from "the tourism industry." Which is correct? This seems too large a difference to be attributed to GDP vs. GNP.

Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Va2ca (talk • contribs) 08:10, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Official name of San Marino

What is the official name of San Marino? Highly reliable English sources such as the UN, CIA World Factbook and Encyclopædia Britannica say it is the Republic of San Marino, whereas as old Italian documents from the government of San Marino say it is the Most Serene Republic of San Marino. Is the name different in English and Italian or has the name changed? The ISO would be the best source to get the official name but their information isn't freely available. McLerristarr | Mclay1 07:56, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I provided some reliable sources with my relevant edit. Although I admit that those decrees I mentioned on your talk page were older, you will find the same name on documents dating 2009, 2010 and 2011, so a name change is unlikely. Although I am aware that secondary reliable sources are preferable, as far as I know it's also common consensus that primary sources can be used when the information in question is about how the subject refers to itself (since WP:V would be used ad absurdum if one argued that a secondary source knew better how the subject refers to itself than the subject does). On a side note, as I know that citing another Wikipedia is not reliable, it:San Marino uses "Serenissima". Regards SoWhy 08:46, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree that in this case primary sources are reliable; however, it's possible that San Marino refers to itself as the Most Serene Republic as a kind of term of endearment rather than an official name. The sources you cited above call it the Republic of San Marino in the heading then call it the Most Serene Republic afterwards. McLerristarr | Mclay1 15:34, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, that's the point, isn't it? "Repubblica di San Marino" is the common long name, "San Marino" the common short name and "Serenissima Repubblica di San Marino" the officiallong name. I think the sources demonstrate that it's most likely a similar case to the "Republic of Venice" which was also formally known as "Serenissima Repubblica di Venezia" but is commonly referred to only without the adjective. Regards SoWhy 22:17, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

The thing is, the sources you provided use the term Most Serene Republic but they never say that is the official name, whereas the CIA World Factbook and Encyclopædia Britannica say the Republic of San Marino is the official name. McLerristarr | Mclay1 03:45, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I did a search on the UN website for "Most Serene Republic of San Marino" and found three matches. This one says the official name of San Marino according to the UN is the Republic of San Marino but it's the Most Serene Republic of San Marino according to "Cda" which I'm assuming is Canada (although I have no idea). McLerristarr | Mclay1 04:09, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

An IP seems to have solved the issue. Britannica says that the country is also know as the Most Serene Republic. McLerristarr | Mclay1 06:39, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Introduction of the article -- reaching for superlatives?

Some of the points currently in the introduction [3] seem odd to me; for example, "the smallest non-English speaking full member of the United Nations in terms of population." Might as well say "the smallest country beginning with S". We get the point: it's a small country -- we could come up with lots of things that San Marino is smallest at. The "Western European and Others Group" is hardly notable enough to mention in the introduction like that; nor is football competition. Also, "third smallest nation in Europe" is not as notable in my opinion as "fifth smallest nation in the world". But the term "nation" can be ambiguous; I think we really mean sovereign state. I would suggest rewording the introduction as follows:

The Most Serene Republic of San Marino (Italian: Serenissima Repubblica di San Marino) is a sovereign state in the Apennine Mountains, completely surrounded by Italy. One of the European microstates, San Marino is the fifth-smallest sovereign state in the world both by area and by population. It is the least populous member of the Council of Europe.

According to tradition, San Marino is the oldest constitutional republic in the world still existing: it was founded in 301 C.E. by Marinus of Rab, a Christian stonemason fleeing the religious persecution of Roman Emperor Diocletian. San Marino has the oldest written constitution still in effect, dating back to 1600.

Comments? --Mathew5000 08:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

"the smallest non-English speaking full member of the United Nations in terms of population." and " Vatican City, Tuvalu, Nauru, and Palau are less populous than San Marino. " So since when are Vatican, Tuvalu, Nauru and Palau english-speaking countries?? Eregli bob (talk) 06:47, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Maybe those are not full members? Tuvalu, Nauru and Palau have English as the official language and the Holy See is not a full member of the UN, so there is no contradiction. Regards SoWhy 09:01, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

one prisoner

Interesting article about how San Marino only has one prison with only one prisoner in it. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sanmarino/8330662/The-worlds-most-pampered-and-bored-prisoner.html

Possibly worth adding to article.

CrocodilesAreForWimps (talk) 14:01, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

What?

"In 1972, a value added taxation (VAT) system was introduced in Italy, and was applied in San Marino, in accordance with the 1939 friendship treaty."

This is fine, except that the article doesn't contain a single other reference to this treaty--the sentence is referring to something not in the article as if it was in the article. Ken Arromdee (talk) 01:53, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Summary

The History section states: According to legend, Marino... etc., but the article summary states it as a fact. As no contemporary reference exists, and the Republic is first mentioned several centuries later, would somebody mind if I changed it to "According to legend, it was founded in A.D. 301"? Sic? 15:01, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Monaco is a UN member and smaller than San Marino. Ybgursey 05:07, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

There must be an error in the second para, since Diocletian was not Emperor in 257. Lateantiquity (talk) 14:49, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm looking into it. It seems unlikely that a 13 year old would have been given the task to rebuild the walls of Rimini, unless it was the Roman patrician's idea of job experience.Brutaldeluxe (talk) 15:24, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, I saw the same thing:

Legend has it that Marinus left Rab, then the Roman colony of Arba, in 257 when the future emperor, Diocletian, issued a decree calling for the reconstruction of the city walls of Rimini, which had been destroyed by Liburnian pirates.[7]

It is at best, absurd and more likely historically incorrect to a very substantial degree, requiring revision or removal (since it propagates an unsubstantiated & historically incorrect account as being factual history - which again it is not.)... Stevenmitchell (talk) 10:11, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• What was it called before Marinus was canonized?

The article and everything else I have looked at indicates it was founded on Sep 3, 301 AD (65 years before Marinus death). I suspect nobody in Catholic history especially within the first few hundred years would have named a city they founded assuming they would become a Saint at least 60 years later.Autkm (talk) 00:02, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Captain Regent

It is October 1st. I hope someone knows who the incoming heads of state are as I'm not too well versed in this category and I don't know where to find this information. I just know that the post lasts six months with rotation on the 1st of April and October every year, and at the moment it is out of date. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 05:35, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Railway

It seems that the railway has been reopened on a 800 m stretch, for touristic purposes. 83.163.5.82 (talk) 18:01, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Contradiction

This article contradicts itself. in the top it says its the second smallest country in the world... but further down it says it is the third smallest in europe behind monaco and the vatican city. someone get the facts straight, with references :) --NightDragon 03:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

While it is the third smallest sovereign state in Europe, it is only the fifth smallest worldwide. Nauru and Tuvalu are smaller in area. --Polaron | Talk 04:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

It appears to have been taken care of. I removed the tag. Grandmasterka 04:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Is there a contradiction between the USA being the oldest constitutional republic, and San Marino being the oldest constitutional republic?

It has been brought up that San Marino adopted the constitution in the early 1900s. I don't know the history of San Marino well enough to comment. Perhaps this should be clarified? Clamshack 18:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)clamshack

The USA is not the oldest constitutional republic - San Marino is much older.

San Marino either has a constitution or it does not. The article makes both claims. The reality is that the constitution is not in one document.203.184.41.226 (talk) 05:15, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Language

In the Emiliano-Romagnolo article it says that San Marinans speak Emiliano-Romagnolo, can anyone verify this?

I believe it is treated as a dialect of Italian, even though it is not one. The official language seems to be Italian. --A Sunshade Lust 03:15, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Obviously the official language is Italian, the "Romagnolo" is only a dialect --194.183.86.147 22:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

No, you're wrong. Emiliano-Romagnolo is not a dialect, it is a language of its own, and has not too much to do with Italian. Unfortunately, E-R will most likely become extinct, like other so-called "dialects" of Italian (which in fact they are not!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.200.205.56 (talk) 23:15, 11 November 2007 (UTC) in san marino 100% of people speak Italian as native language and most of them , apart from Italian, speak also romagnolo as dialect. --151.95.60.141 (talk) 19:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Area of Nauru

Is the stated figure of Nauru's nautical jurisdictional area of 431,000km² accurate? My rough calculations (assuming a radius of about 30km from Nauru central point) give me ~2,800km². Mgi (talk) 06:38, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Largest City

This page lists Serravalle as largest city, but Serravalle states 'Serravalle is a castello located in the small European republic of San Marino. With a population of 9,394 inhabitants (of that a scarce 2,000 are of foreign origin, conditions 2006) and a surface of 10.53 km², it is not only the most densely populated municipality in San Marino, but it also contains its largest city (Dogana)'. This page lists

• I believe we should revert Serravale as the largest city in San Marino, not Dogana. This is because the Sammarinese government considers 'castello' as the equivalent of entities with municipality status in other states. Dogana is not a city, but a village within Serravale. The capital, the City of San Marino, also has the status of 'castello'. Isko1901 (talk) 09:29, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Sammarinese Italian?

Can a good fellow possibly direct me to where I could read about the Italian dialect spoken in San Marino? I am very interested. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 17:56, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Answered on the user's talk page. Quinto Simmaco (talk) 18:25, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

not a state — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:30C9:6E70:6D89:436:3D81:6244 (talk) 02:12, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Independent of the Roman Empire in 301? You're joking

The Empire was near its strongest, so the idea that it would have granted real independence to a territory is deeply flawed. Similarly the various subsequent invaders would have had no patience with such independence. The truth is probably that like so many territories in Italy, it wandered in and out of the spheres of influence of various rulers, probably not attracting a lot of attention and being effectively autonomous. But to claim independence from 301? No chance Ender's Shadow Snr (talk) 00:42, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Head of State

Why is the Head of State not mentioned?

Zntrip

I don't think San Marino has a single head of state, does it? The executive branch is represented by two "Captains Regent". Perhaps they share the title together. Can anyone confirm? -- Hux 08:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Confirmed --194.183.86.147 21:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Not quite. The generally accepted argument is wrong. San Marino was - or still is - a monarchy, technically under the Pope. The Captains Regent represented the Pope - hence the title Regent. As the Statutes of 1600 are still in force, I assume that the Pope remains absentee head of state. A similar situation applies in Andorra, incidentally, though the heads of state there are joint - being the kings of Spain and France (now the president of the latter).203.184.41.226 (talk) 05:32, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

It would be great if you could reference what you wrote above. The mayor of Yurp (talk) 17:46, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Juan Carlos I is also the Bishop of Urgell? --E4024 (talk) 18:08, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

The 'Head of State' is usually the commander in chief of the armed forces. Given that San Marino HAS some armed forces, there's a case for arguing that the person in the executive with that responsibility is the person concerned. But yes, the whole issue is wonderfully idiosyncratic; as a collector of unusual political systems, this is a corker! Ender's Shadow Snr (talk) 00:52, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Emiliano-Romagnolo dialect?

The article says: The language spoken is Italian, with the Emiliano-Romagnolo dialect, and Roman Catholicism is the predominant religion. As far as I am concerned, Emiliano-Romagnolo is not a dialect, but a separate language. It isn't even descended from Italian. --192.194.238.242 (talk) 13:59, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Answer: Romagnolo is considered a dialect by most linguists, while some consider it a language. Today's romagnolo match italian words at 90% with a different accent and some different vowels.

When referring to the variant spoken in Romagna, where San Marino is located, it is called Romagnolo, not Emiliano-Romagnolo. There is not a great difference between the two, but you can discern whether one comes from Romagna or Emilia based on their dialect, if they speak it, or from their accent otherwise. Being grown in the region, I can say that all people from ER—including San Marino—speak Italian as their first language, while Romagnolo is only spoken indoors in family context by only the older generation, IMHO the last to do so. However, virtually all native people grown by native Romagnolo families can understand some Emiliano-Romagnolo.

As opposed to the comment above, from my perspective I would say that only a minority of the words are immediately understandable by Italians not native of the region, either spoken or spelled (nobody can really write the dialect, except for experts who specifically studied the writing system). I was already presented with such argument that Romagnolo is a shallow dialect not far distinct from Italian, but IMHO that's a thesis proposed by who doesn't actually know the dialect, as it's easy to believe it doesn't exist. As a fact, it is virtually impossible nowadays to hear Romagnolo on the streets, wherever you go.

Medende (talk) 02:40, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

The most serene ??

That s an incorrect translation. Sarenessima means VERY SERENE not the MOST SERENE. the sufix -issimo(a) is the equivalent of english VERY .

Wrong. See Most Serene Republic, it states: By custom, the appellation "Most Serene" is an indicator of sovereignty (cf. Serene Highness for a sovereign prince), consequently "Most Serene Republic" emphasizes the sovereignty of the republic.

Knowing a few archaic English expressions, I'd say that it is right.Brutaldeluxe (talk) 01:08, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The suffix -issimo/a turns an adjective into its superlative. Most Serene is therefore correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.93.17.168 (talk) 20:33, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Right. "Very serene republic" would be "repubblica molta serena". Tom129.93.17.168 (talk) 20:39, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I observed that "Most serene" is the de-facto translation for "Serenissima" whenever referring to pre-unification republics. However, as a native speaker, the translation which most accurately expresses "Serenissima Repubblica" is in fact "very, very serene Republic". It's not possible to sustain an argument against this, except that the de-facto usage is "Most serene".

For completeness and clarity to Tom and the previous commenter, the suffix -issimo turns the adjective into an "absolute superlative" (IT: "superlativo assoluto"), not into a superlative (IT: "superlativo relativo"). Despite this superlative is called "absolute" for turning the adjective into its highest force, it doesn't make the adjective "universally absolute" against any comparison (ie. "the most", "more than anything"). Medende (talk) 03:00, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

¿Roman Empire?

Though the Western Roman Empire was technically a part of a judicial Roman Empire it was a de facto independent state, so I'd suggest changing independence from "Roman Empire" to "Western Roman Empire". Sincerely, --86.81.201.94 (talk) 23:21, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

What type of Citizenship to they have? By Birth or by Blood , something else? Can one become a citizen?

A section on how citizenship is determined is required. Is it a simple matter of birth inside the country or is it like some other countries which require that one or both parents be Citizens? Can a non-citizen BECOME a citizen and if sow, how? Most other micro-countries have sections of this. LiPollis (talk) 05:07, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

San Marino only imprisons 2 people

How can they keep their jail down to 2 people?

http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-population-total?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.241.145.156 (talk) 17:12, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, every town is entitled to have a local drunk? Then there is the guard. He's drunk too ... and sees two of them, hence the crowd? :) --SvenAERTS (talk) 14:34, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Ethnic groups

Are the people of San Marino ethnically Italian, as the article says? Or are they considered as a separate Sammarinese ethnicity? --89.138.165.213 (talk) 21:13, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes, they are-MarcusVetus✠ 21:11, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Vandalism of the anthem

Someone keeps vandalizing the anthem, replacing it with various Sammarinese Eurovision entries. Is it possible to somehow block public edits on this page for a while? I'd say until whoever did that grows up but since that's not possible, at least until they forget about it. Avenflight (talk) 12:58, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

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Foundation source

SoWhy: Good solution and cooperation on the vehicles article, thanks!

Regarding the foundation of San Marino, the closest note (called "a") actually says "By tradition". Which reference did you have in mind? I have read about this topic in various sources, and while there seems to be a common confusion on the point that the date in the legend is far from verified (verified as being unlikely, seems to be the case), the conclusion is that this date is just that: not verified. The best sources I've managed to find on the topic:

• CIA World Factbook: "According to tradition, it was founded by a Christian stonemason named MARINUS in A.D. 301"
• UNESCO: "the foundation of the republic as a city-state in the 13th century"
• San Marino-site: "This is the synthesis of what is contained in the writings on saints and martyrs by an anonimus of the XII century regarding San Marino (“Vita Sancti Marini”) – the Life of San Marino. It is difficult to determine the difference between truth and legend /../

More specific studies date the life of San Marino sometime between 500 and 700 AD. It is also possible that the story of the life of the Saint was, at least in part, falsified in order to defend the territorial patrimony of the Monastery of San Marino from the attempts to claim the territory by the Bishop of Rimini, Placito Feretrano (parchment of 885 AD where for the first time the name of San Marino has a specific territorial reference)."

However, there can certainly be better ways to clarify this than how I did. There was also already a note speaking about tradition (mainly the same thing, in my mind), but I wanted to highlight it more. Regards, 786r (talk) 20:13, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

@786r: Well, this source in the article confirms a foundation in the 4th century CE. The official homepage of San Marino confirms the 301 CE year. This book confirms the 3 September date. I think a discussion about whether "according to legend" should be included here is a good idea though, since I agree that the exact date might be controversial. Regards SoWhy 21:37, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

I posted a message at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject European Microstates, requesting some input. Regards SoWhy 08:03, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Good! I've also seen some other external articles that treats the 301 date as factual/verified. Maybe we just have a "some sources say.., but others.." situation?

Though, the saint-legend also seems to claim that Marinus started working on the wall over 100 years before he died. Which doesn't mean 301 cannot be accurate, but it's an indication of the quality of the source, if so (furthermore, I've only seen second hand references, so far). 786r (talk) 18:33, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

San Marino vs USA

Has San Marino ever changes their name at all? If not would the US have the longest running name since 1789? LegioV (talk) 21:48, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Totally invalid claim

Please check up-to-date statistics and compare it with the following claim: "with one of the lowest unemployment rates in Europe, no national debt and a budget surplus." I'm sure it has not reason to stay there. Even pre-corona statistics are totally contradicting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.197.243.26 (talk) 09:12, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

'Most Serene' Republic of San Marino?

The Encyclopædia Britannica link provided that supposedly says the country is also known as the "Most Serene Republic of San Marino" doesn't seem to say that anywhere in the article and I can't seem to find any such reference in the Internet that it ever went by that name, now I could definitely be missing something since other Wikipedia articles say it does. However, could anyone find a reputable reference to that title for it? -- sion8 ^{talk page} 04:06, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

I found a Reuters article and a Tourissimo article addressing it as such, though I doubt this constitutes enough consensus to validate retaining the name. A separate but related problem is that the name "Most Serene Republic of San Marino" appears twice in the first paragraph alone.

Cheers, Aethervibes (talk) 14:52, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@Aethervibes: I fixed both. Most pages of San Marino itself refer to it as the "Repubblica di San Marino" but some official documents, such as decrees (e.g. [4] [5] [6]), start with "Us Captains Regents, The Most Serene Republic of San Marino, [...] promulgate..." ("Noi Capitani Reggenti la Serenissima Repubblica di San Marino [...] Promulghiamo..."). It seems to be a ceremonial prefix for such occasions. NB that the decrees themselves all use "REPUBBLICA DI SAN MARINO" in the title. Regards SoWhy 16:10, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

"De jure" independence from Rome in 301?

The infobox says that San Marino became de jure independent from the Roman Empire in 301 AD. This seems amazingly unlikely to me, and I haven't been able to find this claim mentioned anywhere else. Sure, I can find things that say San Marino was founded in 301, but they're all written ambiguously and may be referring to the city itself rather than the nation. Meanwhile I have a kind of hard time believing that it was an independent nation at that time, and even if it was, I have an extremely hard time believing that it was de jure independent. Does anyone have any information to back up this claim? Rwv37 (talk) 11:45, 10 September 2021 (UTC)