Talk:Samjiyon Band

Orchestra not Band

Orchestra seems more common. Someone should change the wording here (I don't have time / will). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:28, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Piotrus, are you sure the orchestra and the band are one and the same? The text describes them as "distinct". In any case, we need to clean this article up to remove the contradiction.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:41, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

@Jack Upland: Pretty sure. Ex. [1] "North Korea has agreed to send the Samjiyon Band, an orchestra with more than 140 members...". Sources use both names often enough, but google fight for orchestra wins with band 5:1 or so. And yes, it is pretty clear this is the same group. Google Translate for 삼지연악단 does suggest the word band, but well, in English orchestras are not bands. Since its a NK group, it's not like they have an English website (or a website at all...). PPS. Even NYT hasn't worked out a correct terminology, compare [2] "The orchestra, known as the Samjiyon Band..." and [3] "South Koreans appeared to be more excited about the Samjiyon Orchestra concerts than the actual Olympic events...". --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:19, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

You might be right. The citation for the sentence saying they are "distinct" doesn't seem to say that at all.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:56, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

@Jack Upland: I didn't even notice that sentence in the article, seems like a clear error. Reviewing the sources, [4] is the only one that suggests they are not the same, but it also suggests that the "Band" made have grown in size and changed the name (through the Korean name seems to still be 'band'). I'll ping the creator of this article who has added this claim, User:Finnusertop, with a note that yes, the sources don't seem to support the claim present here (that band =/= orchestra). Instead, pretty much all the sources I see seem to treat this as one entity, albeit with two possible names (a result of translation issues, most likely). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:12, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

@Jack Upland and Piotrus: yes, the distinction that these are two different groups are based on the Daily NK source Piotrus brought up. At the time of writing it was, and still seems to be, unclear whether these are distinct entries. I'll review the sources cited here and sources I haven't used to see what the mainstream opinion is. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 13:38, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Source review

• "North Korea's Samjiyon Orchestra, unfamiliar to many, invited to perform at PyeongChang 2018". ArirangTV. Retrieved 2018-05-03.: Same, but with some reservations. This is the only source that discusses the issue in detail.
• Qin, Amy (8 February 2018). "North Korean Orchestra Gives an Emotional Concert in the South". nytimes.com. Retrieved 2018-05-03.: Different?: "Created for the occasion"
• "Curiosity fuels ticket demand for mysterious N. Korea troupe：The Asahi Shimbun". The Asahi Shimbun. Retrieved 2018-05-03.: Different?: "The Samjiyon Band, which is believed to have close relations with the Samjiyon orchestra".
• KIM, HYUNG-JIN; Press, Associated. "Head of popular girl band leads N. Korean team to S. Korea". WVNS. Retrieved 2018-05-03. Different?: "observers say was likely hastily formed ahead of the Olympics-related talks". AP story, on many websites.

Sources I checked that don't address the issue

• "North Korean orchestra steals the limelight as fans shun Winter Olympics". The Telegraph. 6 February 2018. Retrieved 2018-05-03.
• Sang-Hun, Choe (15 January 2018). "North Korean Orchestra Plans to Perform in South Korea During Winter Olympics". nytimes.com. Retrieved 2018-05-03.
• "KJU Attends Photo-op with Samjiyo'n Orchestra". North Korea Leadership Watch. Retrieved 2018-05-03. Samjiyo
• Cottrell, Stephen. "Glad To Meet You: North Korea's pop orchestra warms hearts in the South". The Conversation. Retrieved 2018-05-03.
• "(LEAD) N. Korean art troupe performs in Seoul to celebrate Olympics". Yonhap News Agency. Retrieved 2018-05-03.
• "N Korean leader Kim Jong-un's sister wraps up whirlwind Olympics tour". AsiaOne. Retrieved 2018-05-03.
• Press, Associated. "By Boat, N. Korean Musicians Arrive in South for Olympic Gig". VOA. Retrieved 2018-05-03.
• Herald, The Korea. "[Photo News] North Korean art troupe holds rehearsal in Gangneung". koreaherald.com. Retrieved 2018-05-03.
• "Lucky draw ticketing for N. Korea's Samjiyon Orchestra performance opens on friday - 동영상 Dailymotion". Dailymotion. Retrieved 2018-05-03.
• "Here's a look at North Korea's first musical performance in South Korea in 12 years". Business Insider. 8 February 2018. Retrieved 2018-05-03.: "Samjiyon Orchestra's first performance in South Korea since 2002", confuses it for the last North Korean performance in the South overall

My gut instinct is that the "Orchestra" is a spin-off from the "Band". In that sense, they are the same entry, and yet they are not. If that is the case, the lead should make this distinction clear rather than use Band and Orchestra synonymous. Not doing that would inaccurately imply that "The Samjiyon Band or Samjiyon Orchestra" was founded in 2009 (only the Band was) or that Hyon Song-wol is the leader of the "Samjiyon Band or Samjiyon Orchestra" (she only leads the Orchestra). Perhaps make that distinction clear and have a section for the Orchestra in this article. @Jack Upland and Piotrus:. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:41, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Arirang is a Korean source, but it treats "band" and "orchestra" as distinct words, not just different translations of the same word. (However, we note that the Moranbong Band is also called the "Moran Hill Orchestra".) Based on the sources we have, we should clearly treat them as distinct, and maybe have a section on the orchestra here. On the other hand, we don't have a source which definitively says they are the same, and it seems possible they aren't. The only evident connection is the name, but North Korea often uses the same name for different entities. The names are often symbolically associated with the regime and its personality cult, and often geographic (like Samjiyon). For example, Paektusan has been used for a construction company, a rocket, and a computer. The best we can say is that some have suggested that the band and the orchestra are related.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:13, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, Jack Upland. Arirang is going with the conclusion that they are probably related but distinct, and cites a few expert opinions that say what you already pointed out: North Korea recycles ideologically relevant names when it reorganizes cultural entities. I'll create a section for the Orchestra when I have time, and make sure I recount these expert opinions. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:42, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Given the arguments and sources, I am fine if you move the article back. I think the 'orchestra vs band' issue requires a separate section, one to which the redirect for Samjiyon Orchestra would point out. Eventually we may get better sources. Of course, what is badly missing from our discussion is an input from Korean speaker. I'll ping one I know, User:-revi, who perhaps could either comment on Korean sources, or maybe ping another Korean speaker who would be better posed to help us? (@revi: short version, are Samjiyon Orchestra and Samjiyon Band the same entity or not?) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:17, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

There was Samjiyeon Band (Korean: 삼지연악단) in 2009 and they were called "band" until late 2017, but something happened during the December 2017 and January 2018 and suddenly North Korea re-branded it as "Orchestra" (Korean: 삼지연관현악단). (PS: I'm South Korean I don't care about North Korean way of romanization.) — regards, Revi 15:33, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Unless we have a North Korean defects as a Wikipedian, I'm not sure if my comment is of much value since I'm South Korean and North Korean usage of Band might differ from those of South Korean. (South Korea uses band exclusively for rock band, and with transliteration. North Korea - they seem to be translating with their variant, as "악단". However, Orchestra (as in a musical group for playing classical musics) is both "관현악단" in South/North Korea, at least. This is just my guess, and I don't speak North Korean.) — regards, Revi 15:46, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, -revi. Is everybody happy with the way things are explained in the article now, Jack Upland, Piotrus? – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:37, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

It looks good to me too, thank you for clearing this up! --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:38, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

It looks good. But -revi can you confirm that the Korean words translated as the English words "band" and "orchestra" are different words in this context? I'm sorry to be demanding, but can you please transliterate the Korean words if you have the time? They seem similar if not the same.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:01, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

I can confirm the context for "band" and "orchestra" is different here. (You will have to wait for this weekend since I'm outside my home and don't want to research while traveling.) — regards, Revi 04:04, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

@Piotrus, Jack Upland, and -revi: I've removed the tag. The article now states the reservations made by sources thusfar. If newer sources diverge from this in the future, we'll have to adjust. If someone has a better idea of what sources in Korean say, please let us know. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 11:31, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Just to clarify the discussion above, 악단 aktan means band; 관현악단 kwanhyonaktan means "wind and string intrument band" or orchestra. (I think). However, I'm not sure what the North Koreans are calling the Samjiyon Orchestra.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:53, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

References