Talk:Saint Thomas Christian denominations

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Merged content from Saint Thomas Christians (page history). See Talk:Saint Thomas Christians#Merger proposal. The time line only mentions events relating to Orthodox/Jacobite Churches. A major re work of the time line is needed to be more inclusive — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.144.215.49 (talk) 20:26, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

≈==Pie chart== @Josepherino: A few things about the pie chart to quickly go over. The first is that there is absolutely no mandate for another editor to correct obvious errors by another editor; not going to the talk page after realizing you were doing this wrong is questionable. The second issue here is that you have done your citations incorrectly, citing the same content in multiple footnotes. If this is your typical practice, I would encourage you to take a moment and review how to use the citation formats on here (also, there's a typo; please change "Kerals" to "Kerala"). The third and perhaps most important matter is that this article, not formally published in any reputable source (the link is even broken, though a working one can be found), is only about Kerala. This article is about the denominations as a whole, and given that many have populations not only in India but globally that wildly alter the percentages on this chart, it should not be in this article. Even if the totals were regarding the denominations as whole, the numbers are over 10 years old. Please take it upon yourself to clean up your mistakes. ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:38, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

@Josepherino: I have just found another couple errors. The first being that "Nestorian" is in erroneous way to refer to the Church of the East and is not in the source. The second is that, well, that number isn't in the same source and has absolutely nothing to do with the totals given in the other categories. If you do not remove the pie chart or completely fix it, I'll have to remove it. I'll give you at least 48 hours so you have time to check for more modern sourcing and double check if your current source is accurate. ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:52, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

The sources I grabbed here all from the pages for Saint Thomas Christians, I did not create the references or links. If you believe they are unreliable I encourage you to take them down from there, second, yes, if you want to dispute an incorrect edit normal wiki decorum does not entail deleting it entirely. if you believe something is incorrect, you could leave a note asking for a better citation, a correction, or something on the talk page. Nestorian is more commonly used and understood than "church of the east". in general the common name in wikipedia trumps the official or organizational name. Ten years old doesn't make a source unusable. Josepherino (talk) 23:06, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

@Josepherino: Your information is not only incorrect, it is limited in scope, outdated, and erroneously cited. Yes, content deletion is entirely suitable; see WP:BURDEN for some more info on this. I would very much encourage you to slow down the pace of your editing and review the proper methods of citation and formatting here. Additionally, no, a handful of discussions have repeatedly returned the consensus that, unless a source explicitly refers to the Church of the East as "Nestorian", it's a dated term with a limited set of appropriate contexts (such as the term "Roman Catholic", but in a slightly more pejorative way). Please set about making the necessary corrections in accordance with policy and the general interest of correcting incorrect material. I won't be making any alterations to the pie chart here for another day or so to give you both practice and be extra conscious of the WP:3RR standard (though reworking citations does not seem to run afoul of that policy). ~ Pbritti (talk) 00:35, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

You can throw out as many buzzwords as you want- the source is widely used on wikipedia, and is from a reputable source: the Centre for Development Studies, Thiruvananthapuram, Kerala, and is under the study of several professors. As per WP:BURDEN " Any material lacking an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source" My edits have reliable sources, and a removal is not justified.

If you're arguing that we need to use global numbers, I would have to ask you for a source, if you add the numbers for each denomination together (as claimed by wikipedia) you get about 7.5 million, far more than the 6 million (2018) claimed on the front page for Thomas Christians. Obviously, one of these has to be incorrect

As for the 3 revert rule, it is you, not me who has been reverting my edits.

I didn't create the reference. I'll fix the links for the reference, and if you send the Nestorian discussion I will change that too, but obviously a far more in depth look into the correct numbers is needed. I suggest you take it to the main Thomas Christians page and take to correcting this whole series. Once those numbers are amended, and reliable sources are found for all numbers, then I will change the numbers here Josepherino (talk) 00:59, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

@Josepherino: You don't seem to understand what I said or Wiki policy. I said I won't touch the pie chart here because of the 3RR rule, even to do minor fixes. And those "buzzwords" actually have meaning: you inserted unsourced material that is factually errant; you still have not rectified the fact that the total for the Church of the East content appears in a wholly different source and does not contain any reference to their population size within the context of Saint Thomas Christians. Even more so, you lumped Latin Catholics into the total Saint Thomas Christians in Kerala. Everything about your pie chart—its scope, its totals, its sources—are not up to standards and you should work to fix it rather than assailing editors for removing inaccurate content. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:25, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

The church of the east part is from a different source, thanks for pointing that out. I'll look for a reliable source and fix both this page and the church of the east page, which I grabbed this directly from without double checking. I'll have to make sure I vet my sources better in the future. this whole series is very poorly done, if you're as passionate about this topic as you are the pie chart I suggest putting some work into fixing this series.

As for the Nestorian thing, here is the website of the Nestorian church in India using the term. if they're fine with it Im sure its fine to use. As I said before, though, "if you send the Nestorian discussion I will change that too", so once you do that I will gladly change it.

http://www.churchoftheeastindia.org/the-church.php

"The Portuguese set up their headquarters in Goa early in the 16th century and extended their domain to Kerala. The Archbishopric of Goa, backed by the Portuguese, claimed jurisdiction over the Syrian Christians of Malabar. The East Syrian liturgy and the Mesopotamian connection of the St. Thomas Christians laid them open to suspicion of Nestorianism and Archbishop Menezes of Goa, who arrived in Kerala in December 1598 was determined to bring them into the Latin way of worship. The Patriarch and Pope John Paul II signed a Common Christological Declaration on 11 November 1994 in Vatican."

st. Thomas Christians catholics are in full communion with the Catholic Church, according to wikipedia " The Syro-Malabar Church is an autonomous (sui iuris) particular church in full communion with the pope and the worldwide Catholic Church". as far as I am aware, there is a difference between the "latin Catholic Church" and the "Catholic Church".

the pie chart doesn't equal 100, im aware. I've stated in my previous post the numbers on this specific topic are highly inconsistent. this is a symptom of a larger problem on here. Josepherino (talk) 04:02, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

@Josepherino: The archives for Talk:Church of the East are a good starting point, but more discussion can be found on a number of other talk pages. That quote is absolutely not enough to use "Nestorian" when the common-use name of the church is given on that same webpage as "Church of the East". I really want to give you a chance to practice here, so please take a moment to slow down and review WP:FIVEPILLARS. Your edits seem rushed and less than thorough, both here and on other articles. However, they're clearly in good faith and absolutely far removed from vandalism (your use a lot of really decent sources!), even if the insertion of the martial is not precise. Just a little more review of policy and a little more practice and you will nail these details perfectly. ~ Pbritti (talk) 05:34, 20 July 2022 (UTC)