Talk:Saint Sava/Archive 1

Archive 1

The "mysterious" disappearing nunneries of Mt. Athos!

Ninam wrote "yep, there is no "nunneries" on Mt. Athos, only Ascetic nuns (houses of ascetisam)".

You know what they say about assuming.... Not a grammar mistake, my ignorance. sorry Muj0 20:50, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:) --Ninam 21:20, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The location of the burning

The relics of St Sava were not burned in the main square of Belgrade but in the "Field of Vračar". The presumable location of the spot where the burning took place is not atop the hill where the Church of St Sava stands today but somewhere around the Church of St Mark and the Tašmajdan Park.

Please correct this! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dultz (talk • contribs) 17:21, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

English name

I am deleting the alleged English version of the name ("Saint Abbas"). I can find no reference to this via Google except on wiki mirror sites and I think it is incorrect. All English-language sources I can find simply refer to "Saint Sava" or "Saint Sava of Serbia".

The only other Google mentions are a few descriptions of Stjepan Vukcic as the Duke of Saint Abbas but I think that is a case of the same error being repeated elsewhere. According to the italian wikipedia article St Sava was named in honour of a much earlier saint, Sabas. Perhaps the confusion occured because of someone mis-hearing Sabas as Abbas.

But the English-language lists of saints all have two different names, Saint Sabas for the Palestinian, Sava for the Serb and no Saint Abbas at all.

Apologies if I'm wrong. Jameswilson 00:41, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The Hymn

Hi, recently someone created an article for Hymn to Saint Sava. I have the feeling that the Hymn does not warrant its own article. Should it be merged with this one? Is it something notable to begin with? There are no sources cited in the Hymn page and I am considering nominating it for deletion soon if that does not change. Thanks! --Ubardak (talk) 09:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

He died of Pneumonia in 1235.

Is there some reference for this?--Vojvodae please be free to write :) 18:21, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Pošao sveti Sava preko jedne planine pa srete đavola. Kad ga đavo ugleda, uplaši se i šćedne da pobjegne, ali ne mogne, pa se sada sretnu na putu. Sveti Sava rekne đavolu: "Pomozi Bog!" a ovaj odgovori: "Nije ti za tim stalo." "Kako si?" reče sveti Sava, a đavo mu odgovori: "Šta je tebi briga kako sam?" "Kuda hoćeš?" upita ga sveti Sava, a ovaj odgovori: "Ni za tim ti nije stalo." "Šta bi radio?" reče sveti Sava; a ovaj mu odgovori: "Radio bi baštovanluk, kad bi imao mršave zemlje i takog ortaka." Onda sveta Sava kaže đavolu: "Čuješ, pobratime, baš ako hoćeš da radiš baštovanluk, evo sam ti ja ortak, no da se dogovorimo, kako ćemo i šta najprije raditi i sijati i ko će sjeme nabavljati." A đavo mu odgovori: "Vala, ako me i mrzi s tobom raditi i opet ti se pokoriti neću, ali samo hoću da načinim ugovor pa da otpočnemo raditi." Sad se dogovore da posade najprije mrki luk; ovo i učine. Kad luk počne da raste, došao bi đavo pa gledao kako su lijepa i dobra perja u luka, a ne gledaše šta je u zemlji. Kad luk u najvećoj snazi bude, onda sveti Sava pozove đavola, te dođoše. E reče sad sveti Sava đavolu: "Pola je moje a pola tvoje, pa biraj sam koje voliš." Videći đavo silna pera u luka prevari se i uzme ono što je na zemlji, a sveti Sava uzme ono što je u zemlji. Kad luk stane zreti, dolažaše đavo počesto da ga obiđe, ali mu ne bijaše milo kad vidi da pera trunu i suše se. Luk sazri, pera sva uvenu, a sveti Sava povadi luk i odnese ga. Ovo đavola vrlo ožalosti pa se riješi te jošt jedan ugovor sa svetijem Savom učini, da posiju i posade kupus, pa đavo reče: "Ja ću ono što je u zemlji, a ti ono što je na zemlji" i tako bude. Kupus, moj brate, posade i ovaj sve rastijaše više i razvijaše svoj list, dok se i glavice ukažu. Videći ovo đavo mišljaše: kad je ovolika čvonta na zemlji, to kolika mora biti u zemlji, pa se vrlo radovaše. Kad u jesen bude, sveti Sava dođe te kupus posiječe a đavolu ostavi korenje. Malo za tijem evo ti i đavola! Tu su gajde, tu su svirale, huka, buka, pjesma i arata velika. Pa čim jedan koren izvadi i vidi, da nema ništa, prenemogne se od muke pa onda umoli svetoga Savu, te jošt jedan ugovor načine, da posiju krompire, pa onda što je u zemlji to neka bude svetoga Save, a što je na zemlji to da njemu ostane. Ovako i učine. Posiju krompire. Krompiri izniknu, ukaže se najprije cimina, pa onda cvijet a za ovijem bobe. Videći ovo đavo stane se smijati i svetom Savi prkositi. No kad bude u jesen, onda cimina opadne i istrune, a sveti Sava povadi krompire pa u trap. Nadimaše se đavo da pukne od zla videći ovako sebe prevarena, kajaše se što je sa popom imao posla, pa opet umoli svetoga Savu, te posiju šenicu i ugovore: što je na zemlji neka bude svetog Save, a što je u zemlji to da bude đavolu. Kad šenica poraste i uklasa, a đavo dođe nad ogradu pa gledaše koliko je izrasla, i govoraše: "Iz malog zrna naraste ovolika stabljika." Kad bude u jesen, onda sveti Sava pozove žeteoce, te šenicu požnje, a đavolu strn. Sad đavo stane plakati pa od ljutine reče: "Vala, pope, baš hoću još s tobom da posadim vinograd, pa šta bude, i ako me još i ovđe prevariš, onda od našega ortakluka nema ništa. I tako posade vinograd. Kad vinograd treće godine rodi i pokaže se vrlo lijepo grožđ e, onda se sastanu da opet biraju šta koji voli. Sad sveti Sava upita đavola: "Što voliš, ortače, ili čorbu ili gustižu?" a đavo odgovori: "Vala ja ću gustižu, a tebi džaba čorba." Kad vinograd sazri, onda sveti Sava obere grožđe, metne u kacu pa posle istoči vino, a đavolu ostane džibra. Sad se, moj brate, domisli đavo te u džibru naspe vodu, načini kazan i prepeče rakiju, a sveti Sava tek njemu, – pa mu reče: "Šta je to, ortače?" a ovaj mu odgovori: "Pečem rakiju, pobratime!" Onda sveti Sava rekne: "Dajde, ortače, da vidim, valja li." A ovaj mu natoči u čašu. Sad sveti Sava srkne jednom, drugom, pa treći put blagoslovi i prekrsti se, a đavo pobegne i reče: "Vala, baš to je staru lijek a mladome bijes!" pa tako iščezne, i više ga nikako nema tamo gdje čuje da je pop. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.219.3.172 (talk) 13:41, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

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"Svetosavlje" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Svetosavlje. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 23:06, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Religion

Encyclopedia Britannica: His policy of recognizing the jurisdiction of the patriarch of Constantinople (now Istanbul) ensured the adherence of Serbian Christianity to Eastern Orthodoxy

Bojan Aleksov: Moreover, St. Sava helped to restore Serbs, exposed both to Roman Catholicism and the Bogomil heresy, to the bosom of the Orthodox Church

Encyclopedia of Christianity: Roman Catholic gains in Serbia ended when St. Sava, Stefan II's brother, secured an archbishopric from the patriarch of Constantinople and, in 1219, crowned Stefan II the Orthodox king of the Serbs 23 editor (talk) 13:53, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

These claims are inaccurate, the result of authors being too simplistic in their characterization of religious questions. Saint Sava, like many Eastern Christians of his day, lived and died in communion with both Rome and Constantinople.

Translation Oddities

It seems that some of the article was translated from one or more non-English sources. Some of the usages and terms don't really work as presented, especially a number of adjectives and adverbs. Examples:

• ...he was again friendly and brotherly received by Patriarch Athanasius. [Adjectives cannot modify a verb like 'to receive'.]
• ...but the Emperor was unappealing. [This generally means that the Emperor didn't look like he would be pleasant to eat.]
• ...became a topic of national, political cult, focus of liberation thought, [and?] danger to foreign rule.
• The Ottomans sought to symbolically and really, set fire to the Serb determination of freedom, which had become growingly noticeable.

I will revise, but I need someone with actual subject matter expertise to make sure that I don't change the intended meaning. Please feel free to edit my changes, but don't simply revert them; as written, many of the phrases just don't have appropriate meanings in English. Last1in (talk) 18:01, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm looking forward to your edit @Last1in:. Thanks, Mm.srb (talk) 23:41, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

• Note that "guested" is problematic. Based on most of the usages I'm seeing, it seems to mean "visited" and I an making that as the change. HOWEVER, it is 100% possible that I've got it backwards. Last1in (talk) 17:54, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Konstantin Jireček, discussion for inclusion in the article

Der Mönch Theodosij schreibt, der hl. Erzbischof Sava habe bei seinen Predigten jedermann mit Tränen gebeten, vor Liebeleien (ljubodêjanija), Ehebruch (preljubodêjstvo), Päderastie (muženeistovstvo), Umgang mit Tieren (skotoložьstvo) und jeder Unzucht die Flucht zu ergreifen. Er wird es nicht ohne Grund getan haben. (The monk Theodosij writes that in his sermons, archbishop St. Sava asked everyone with tears in his eyes to flee from love affairs (ljubodêjanija), adultery (preljubodêjstvo), male homosexuality (muženeistovstvo), bestiality (skotoložьstvo) and any fornication. He won't have done it for no reason, adds Konstantin Jireček.) - Denkschriften der Kaiserlichen Akademie der Wissenschaften. Philosophisch-Historische Klasse. 58. Band. Wien, 1915. p. 31 (Constantin Jireček, Staat und Gesellschaft im Mittelalterlichen Serbien III).[1]

Note. "Theodosij bei Ivan Pavlović, Domaći izvori za srpsku istoriju", Beograd, 1877, f.133. («Si bo dêla duhovьnaa hristijanomь byti glagolaaše, i simь plodonosijemь pače vьsakoje žrьtvy bogь veselitь se, ljubodêjanija že i preljubodênstva, mužeienstovьstva že i skotoložьstva, i vьsakogo bluda bêžešte otьbêgnuti sь slьzami kogoždo moljaše.» [2]). Edion Petriti (talk) 07:22, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

References

Request for comment

Is including information regarding the topic of Saint Sava's sermons in the article relevant or not? Per WP:RELEVANCE. Edion Petriti (talk) 16:42, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

If the sermons are notable and have significant coverage, then you can include it. A cursory research reveals that along with hymns, Sava's sermons are recited during some Serbian holidays in the modern times. In addition, his sermons are sources of his theology such as his articulation of the Serbian Orthodoxy (see sermon given at Zica in 1221).Darwin Naz (talk) 22:14, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

It is not that sort of sermons which the fellow editor has in mind. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 00:50, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

And what sort of sermons does the editor have in mind? The text is pretty clear and unambiguous. See also WP:Significant Coverage. Edion Petriti (talk) 07:30, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

I feel that the RfC is too vague to get consensus. I'd ask that this one be closed and a new one opened with details of (1) what is in the article now; (2) what the editor suggests should be added; and (3) whether can sermons be summarised in groups and, if so or if not, how and why? To use a contemporary example, it would be like a question, "Should we include Trump's tweets in his article?" Which tweets do we have, which are missing and how do we present them inside the guardrails of WP:NPOV (especially WP:UNDUE). Last1in (talk) 13:33, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Last1in (talk · contribs) I specifically want this paragraph inserted in the article [3], while User:Sadko objects on feeble and not well-specified grounds. Edion Petriti (talk) 16:09, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Weak generalisation + WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 21:30, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

• Thank you. I now understand the controversy. In a statement that will enrage pretty much everyone, you're both right. The paragraph has value and seems sourced appropriately (yay, Edion Petriti (talk · contribs)). The phrasing overall is... troublesome and the last sentence is, imho, unencylocpaedic as well grammatically tragic (yay, Sadko (talk · contribs)). Whilst I know that such ideas are terribly out of fashion in society at large, how about a compromise?

According to Theodosij [NOTE 1], the sermons of St Sava [NOTE 2] urged followers to avoid sexual behaviours at odds with church teaching, including adultery, homosexuality, bestiality and fornication [NOTE 3]

• NOTE 1: Who is Theodosij? If it's Theodore I Laskaris, change the naming to what is used elsewhere in the article. If it's not, please link to whomever that person is as I can't find a page for him/her/it/them.
• NOTE 2: One honorific is plenty for a given sentence. Please pick either 'archbishop' or 'saint (St)'. Most articles go with the latter. You could also use as archbishop, St Sava..." but it's wordy and pretty pointless.
• NOTE 3: (A) The terms in Serbian (I assume it's Serbian?) do not add to understanding and should be omitted. (B) the term 'love affairs' is covered either by fornication (pre-marital or after the death of the spouse) or adultery, so it's redundant. (C) The 'tears' bit and last sentence are either WP:PEACOCK or [WP:OPED]].

Last1in (talk) 17:43, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

• Great suggestions overall @Last1in:. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 17:57, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

How about this version: According to his biographer Teodosije, in his sermons Saint Sava strongly urged his fellow Christians to avoid any sexual misconduct at odds with church teaching, including adultery, homosexuality, bestiality and fornication. Edion Petriti (talk) 18:37, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

User:Sadko, You wanted a modern source, and I did add it, Noel Malcolm's book on Kosovo. I can't seem to grasp what is your problem, besides you behaving like a spoiled child. Did you ask for another source? And I gave it to you, see here [4] and here [5]. I am going to revert to my last edit, if you revert back, I will take you to 3RR. Edion Petriti (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:40, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

• I am deeply confused. Everyone (okay, both of you since there are only two who GaF about this) seemed okay with the stripped-down version and it still got reverted? Edion Petriti (talk · contribs)) and Sadko (talk · contribs)), don't make me pull this Wiki over -- I'll do it and you both will be sitting funny for weeks! Seriously, this seems to have devolved into pettiness. Decide 'HERE' what the right phrasing is and then stop the edit-war. Is that really so difficult? Let me guess; one of you is a Trumpeteer and the other is A Bidenisen? Just get with the Wikiprogramme, people! Last1in (talk) 23:23, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
  • I agree on this version: According to his biographer Teodosije, in his sermons Saint Sava strongly urged his fellow Christians to avoid any sexual misconduct at odds with church teaching, including adultery, homosexuality, bestiality and fornication. Edion Petriti (talk) 11:48, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Jiricek and Pavlovic are old news. We do not have the translation of the quote from Malcolm. Why is it in Albanian? Even more so, using Teodosije is not per WP:PRIMARY. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 01:04, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Strange you mention it, because I was careful enough to insert the Albanian and the English versions of the quote from Noel Malcolm's book. And he pretty much says the same thing as Jirechek and cites Teodosije from Škrivanić. So here is your reliable 21st century source. Edion Petriti (talk) 08:19, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

User:Last1in, the discussion has stalled. What do you think we should do? Edion Petriti (talk) 10:04, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

I am against it, per Sadko and WP:RELEVANCE we should then make special part in article with sermons, why is this one so different than others. Question is rhetorical. And the reason to put this one in obvious. User:Theonewithreason (talk) 05. November 2020 (UTC)

User:Edion Petriti, I think it stays out for now. Reviewing the discussion and the article as a whole, I tend to agree with User:Theonewithreason. User:Darwin Naz touches on the same argument from a tangent: What about this sermon warrants mention without the context of all his other sermons? The modern obsession with sexual norms aside, what makes it exceptional enough that it is the only sermon-related info that we mention in the article? My advice would be to built a short section that covers his sermons as a body of work. From my side-reading, I expect that the primary themes would not be sexual in nature, but it could warrant a mention amongst Sava's larger focus on orthodoxy and his nomocanon. Last1in (talk) 13:25, 5 November 2020 (UTC)