Talk:Saint Paul, Minnesota/Archive 1

Neighborhoods

Hope you all don't mind - I added a section on the city's neighborhoods, which are fairly distinctive. Edit as desired.

Suburbs

Re the below comment: There is no "East St. Paul", although the other three 'burbs, North, South and West, all exist as Sam notes.

Mitchberg 18:07, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

---

Should probably be integrated?

1. North St. Paul, Minnesota
2. West St. Paul, Minnesota
3. South St. Paul, Minnesota
4. East St. Paul, Minnesota

--Sam

Those are distinct cities from St. Paul proper, although East doesn't exist to my knowledge, and the arrangement of the cities could be worthy of note (Minneapolis is actually to the west. West St Paul is south, South St Paul is roughly southeast, or something like that). —Mulad 12:52, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

North Saint Paul, West Saint Paul, and South Saint Paul are separate municipalities. East Saint Paul is a geographic area of the City of Saint Paul. West Saint Paul was named because it was west of the Mississippi River. South Saint Paul was South of St. Paul (and the original West Saint Paul). North Saint Paul was the place they sent the udesirables from Landfall, MN

What does "undesirables" mean? also I live on the east side of st.paul and we call it east st.paul even though it is not a separate city —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.180.182.119 (talk) 06:43, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Sites of interest

The "Sites of Interest" section has a lot of geographical creep, considering it mentions quite a few sites that aren't in St Paul: 3M headquarters, U of M Saint Paul Campus (in Falcon Heights, actually), the Basilica of St Mary, Ft Snelling, the Mall of American, and the State Fair. With the exception of the U of M campus (which is at least generally refered to as being in St Paul), I'm proposing that all of these get moved to Minneapolis-St. Paul, as they are general attractions for the whole metro area, and only mention sites that are actually in St Paul. Thoughts? -- Kaszeta 13:03, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Neighborhoods

The article is inaccurate in regards to Summit Hill and Summit-University. Most of the things referenced in Summit Hill are actually located in Summit-University: The Cathedral, homes of James J. Hill, F. Scott Fitzgerald (there are several, all in Summit-University), Garrison Keilor, the view of Downtown. Summit Avenue is listed as the "Focal Point" of Summit Hill, but is in fact the border between the two neighborhoods (Grand Avenue is more accurately the focus of Summit Hill), with the most spectacular of the Mansions being on the north eastern end of the avenue, which is entirely within Summit-University.

Names and Number of Neighborhoods

The article states "Saint Paul is noted for its neighborhoods; the city has been called "fifteen small towns with one mayor", owing to the neighborhood-based life of much of the city. " - is there a citation for the "fifteen small towns..." quote?

The article then goes on, "The city's fifteen main neighborhoods include:..." - why does the article then list seventeen, rather than fifteen, areas? Is the fifteen here just a carryover from the "fifteen small towns" in the earlier quote? - the seventeen areas listed are apparently based on the city's seventeen planning subdivisions, rather than sociologically or self-defined neighborhoods. - this leads to some related problems found in the linked "St. Paul neighborhoods" article, see the dicussion there.

204.77.41.93 23:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Confusing half-sentence on named roads

"...[T]he city is also somewhat unusual in the fact that most roads are named rather than numbered."

I don't get that at all. Obviously if it's streets in question, that's not unusual at all. If it's roads as in interurban highways, well, that's out of scope and even then I don't get the point -- many cities name their interurban roads. If someone can give me examples of what is meant, I'll try to propose a clearer way to state it, but right now I don't understand the point well enough to clarify it. - PhilipR 17:29, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

- Most other cities in the area use a numbering system starting from "Main St", "First Street/Avenue", or just the geopolitical centre of the city, with the number of the street incrementing with distance. Minneapolis, for instance, has 18th Avenue South and 18th Avenue North, all the way into forties, if not further, and in the suburbs north of Saint Paul there are streets into the 140's. Saint Paul has no First Street (any longer), and most residents would be hard-pressed to find Second Street, which is merely five or six, depending on how you count it, blocks long, and there is nothing with an address on 2nd. Downtown streets run thru Fourteenth, though some are quite hard to find - 13th St is just four blocks long, in two two-block lengths, and the East and West don't go above Seventh. Despite former Governor Ventura's quip about the streets being laid out by drunken Irishmen, I think Saint Paul's approach is very user-friendly; people in Mill City get to struggle with intersections like "6th and 12th", or "1240 10th St", both of which, lacking further detail, could be one of two - or more! - places. Additionally, in some places a named street/avenue takes the place of a numbered street, while in others it does not. For example, Lake Street is 30th (29th, Lake, 31st), while Clinton Ave comes between 3rd and 4th Avenues.

Ethnic Makeup of Neighborhoods

In the "Neighborhoods" section, I removed "Polish" from the list; the list is of *Twin Cities* populations, and the Cities' Polish community is almost stereotypically centered in Northeast Minneapolis. I did add the Russians - they are heavily-represented in the West End.

I'm very open to discussion on this.

Mitchberg 14:54, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Name of article

Taking a lead from the move of Saint Louis to St. Louis, Missouri, I've redirected Saint Paul to St. Paul. If this is greatly unpopular, I (or someone else) can always move it back. Uvaduck 19:48, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I moved it back. The St. Louis people at least made the case that that was the legal name of the city. No such assertion has been made here. dml 22:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Photos

I'm planning on taking a day and doing some photography around the Twin Cities. Is there anything in particular editors interested in St Paul would like? I'm hoping to do it this week, probably Thursday. Let me know on my talk page if you have suggestions. Thanks! Rx StrangeLove 23:29, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

A better quality picture of the new Guthrie, (bigger, clearer), Midway Stadium, a pic of St. Paul Cathedral that shows the whole thing (not just the dome)...just a few ideas... ka1iban 13:47, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

also, a picture of the ordway and maybe a pic of a section of Grand Ave. (since it doesn't have its own page) ka1iban 13:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Good ideas....I'll do what I can. The weather wasn't the best for picture taking last week so I'm going to go out this week instead....so I'm still open to suggestions. Rx StrangeLove 01:38, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Education

Should the article's "Education" section describe the general welfare and attention the education system rather than have a huge list of scools? Then we could take what it is now and move it to something like The Schools of St. Paul.Bordello 23:42, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Neighborhoods

I think the neighborhoods should be split off into a new article; it would make the main article smaller for people with slower internet connections, and easier to read for everyone else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MNAdam (talk • contribs)

I agree. I'd suggest leaving the graphic and a simple list of neighborhoods in the main article. In St. Paul neighborhoods, put the entire section, duplicating the graphic. Appraiser 14:59, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I moved the section to St. Paul neighborhoods...--MNAdam 19:16, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

GA Review

GA Nomination

Before the serious WP:GA reviewers come along...

• Per WP:LEAD, the opening section is too short at one paragraph, consider inputting another about famous events, neighbouring cities/settlements, historic connections, notabilities or controversies.
• There is no mention in the lead as to what country this city belongs (we know it's USA but a small child, foreign learner or impaired reader may not).

Minor adjustments which if made, should in my opinion grant this article with GA status. Hope that helps, Jhamez84 17:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

question - are opening sections supposed to be just one graf?

Mitchberg 18:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

See here for exact numbers of paragraphs for articles. Jhamez84 18:16, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Failed GA

The checklist:

1. Well written: fail
2. Verifiable: fail
3. Broad in coverage: pass
4. Neutral: fail
5. Stable: pass
6. Images: fail

Now for the explanation ... For the well written failing, most of the article comprises of lists which should be turned into prose(i.e. the museums list) or tiny paragraphs which should be expanded(i.e. Education). Also, the lead paragraph should be expanded to summarize the entire article and not tell of a controversial census name change, which is not even discussed later on in the text. For the verifiability failing, many sections, such as the Economy and Transportation sections do not have a single citation. For the neutrality failing, the article is written in an unencyclopedic tone using terms such as the "wild west" to describe the where Saint Paul was historically located, the use of this term gives the writing an unofficial air. Also this sentence, " The city is now perhaps best known for its favorite sons, F. Scott Fitzgerald and Charles M. Schulz", seems particularly biased without a citation of those men being the "favorite sons" of the city. For the image failing, two images lack proper fair use rationales: Image:StPaulMN.gif and Image:StPaulSeal.gif, and Image:Stpaul.png lacks a proper image tag. A lot of work will be required to bring this article up to GA status, but an article of this subject matter is well worth the effort. Regards, Deyyaz ^{[ Talk | Contribs ]} 19:24, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

History of St. Paul

Shouldn't there be a history of St. Paul included? It certainly has a colorful history, as it was once referred to as Pig's Eye, only later to be renamed St. Paul after the chapel on the Mississippi River. Moebius42 21:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)Moebius42

Upcoming City Council Elections

Should the Gov't & Politics section include information regarding the upcoming (Nov. 2007) City Council elections. Debbie Montgomery has lost the DFL endorsement to Melvin Carter, Jr. in the 1st Ward, and looks to be facing a strong challenge from him. Could be interesting.--Wombattery 19:20, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

• Perhaps there's enough material to create Politics of Saint Paul, Minnesota.--Appraiser 20:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

"Twin Cities" vs. "Sister Cities"

I noticed that my edit, whereby I changed "Twin Cities" to "Sister Cities" for the town twinning section, was reverted back. Why? There are many good reasons why this should read "Sister Cities."

1. Wikipedia has a Twin Cities article that clearly establishes that term as meaning two cities which are geographically close together. Further, the article refers to Minneapolis-St. Paul as the most famous example of twin cities in the United States.

2. Because of Minneapolis-St. Paul's fame as the Twin Cities, a large majority of people will think "Ah, Minneapolis-St. Paul" when they see Twin Cities in the Contents of this article, and will be disappointed or confused when it takes them to a section about sister cities instead.

3. The Minneapolis-Saint Paul article also says the area is nicknamed the Twin Cities.

4. The Town twinning article says "sister cities" is the term used in North America and Australasia. Nowhere in the article does it say "twin cities" is an accepted synonym for town twinning. The phrase "twin cities" is found only twice in the article, both in a sentence referencing the Minneapolis-St. Paul twin cities area.

5. Wikipedia already has set precedent for using "Sister Cities" and not "Twin Cities" for such a section. I determined this by checking the articles for half a dozen of the United States' largest cities, all of which used "Sister Cities."

6. The article for Minneapolis uses "Sister Cities" too.

7. The disambiguation page for Twin city supports all of the above.

After researching this issue, I've established in my mind (and hopefully yours) that my original edit was the correct one. As such, I will re-edit the heading and explanatory text to refer to Sister Cities. --Skylights76 20:51, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The earlier reversion was done by an unregistered IP address with no other edits.--Appraiser 18:03, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Notes on structure, editing, photos

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Some quirks about this article:

• Intro: The photo is dreary dismal: mid winter with industrial steam rising from a vent? Is that how St. Paulites view their own city? Perhaps a photo with a sunnier day so the skyline becomes more prominent. Tho I noticed many Capitals had not-so-happy pix: Salem, Oregon Sacramento, California Des Moines, Iowa. Intro needs uber retooling, "and and and and and"
• History: I feel like the history of how St. Paul came to be a capital has a lot more to it than merely the St. Peter debacle because I recall sitting through lengthy stories and txt in elem. school about it. And in reading the history, I don't really understand how St. Paul came together -- ie: the development of the housing and neighborhoods lacks, where are the ethnic groups of St. Paul.
• Template? It's clear this article does not follow template for U.S. cities, it should because the structure is whack. N'hood technically belong under Gov't. Religion under demos? ::faint::
• Diction, style. "The Saint Paul City Hall boasts a striking interior" ?!?!! Is this a travel brochure? Tell me about what the statue is, who built it, where the city hall is, etc. And why isn't there a bigger and prettier picture of the capital?
• Trivia: There's mishmash of trivia everywhere. Ie rep convention dot. -- What's good: Education section -- Lame lists: Culture, Govt

And I don't get the sense at all that this is the capital of Minnesota, you'd think a special section devoted to the large campus of state govt & admin buildings would be deserved. What is St. Paul?--From the sprawling western n'hoods to the Summit Hill mansions to the cobblestone Lowertown to the radically changing Univ Ave. to those south of the Mississippi. And don't the bridge crossings play a big role in St. Paul? compared to Mpls at least. Oh well, I'll be offering grammatical/syntax changes but I leave the St. Paul stuff to you st. paul people .:DavuMaya:. 14:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Would one of the pictures from Mounds Park be better than the industrial steam picture? What do others think? Iulus Ascanius 14:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

• I'm partial to Image:Stpaul001.jpg, slightly over the springtime one, because it shows the proximity of Minneapolis and the 19th century farmhouse in the foreground, but either would be better, IMO.--Appraiser 15:03, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

• I agree. Iulus Ascanius 15:40, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

• O I likie. Agree to change the photo to that one. It's not great due to smog in the bg but I always think natural beauty and old buildings when I think of the capital. 75.72.21.25 18:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Shepard Road/Warner Road

This article on the road along the river could use some help, particulary in describing the historic and scenic features along its route. There is a deletion discussion going on, which may be understandable given the present content of the article. But as you know this is not just another city street or arterial route, and good, properly-sourced content can give this road the treatment it deserves. Can someone with local knowledge add to this? Kablammo 01:03, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

• Some added and if needed there is a historical photo in a Wabasha Street Bridge report. What is the name of the railroad? -Susanlesch 08:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it's the Milwaukee Road's Short Line.

The article is interesting in another way on another, more current subject; it points out that the "inserting hinges into continuous [truss] spans" are means to avoid "future problems . . . [from] thermal expansion and contraction of [bridge] members." One would think that those responsible for maintaining a bridge of similar construction would keep the hinges functional. Kablammo 11:57, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Demos/Nhood

Odd phrase I just took out: And the "East Side" conglomeration of more than 20 neighborhoods actually includes the entire eastern third of the city and its populace, including the Greater East Side, Payne-Phalen, Dayton's Bluff and Battle Creek City Districts. What is this referring to? .:DavuMaya:. 07:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The East Side is a generalized area of Saint Paul. I think this section was trying to distinguish the separate neighborhoods and District Councils that are in the area. A good comparison would be South Minneapolis. Places are often said to be located in South Minneapolis but there are dozens of neighborhoods within it. As a side note, I think this section was supposed to be sourced to this. ~ Eóin (talk) 14:16, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Saint Paul, Minnesota/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I'm nominating the article for GA. Appraiser 17:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Last edited at 17:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 15:43, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

old comments

I would like to make a possible addition to this page: As i read in his web page, the current prime minister of Greece , George Papandreou was born in St Paul in 1952. Thank you