Talk:Sacred Band of Thebes/Archives/2014/September

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What are details of the excavation of their grave? For example, who directed it, when was it done, & where are the findings published? -- llywrch 18:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

It was done in the late 1800's. but I do not know by whom. Haiduc 22:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Does anybody know where the statement that the band was composed of charioteers and drivers came from? I'm almost certain the band was a hoplite regiment, and the chariot was out of use in Greece by this point. Robth^Talk 14:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Plato

Hlieberman would like you to know:

"Plato also references the Sacred Band of Thebes once in his "Symposium." A small excerpt: "And if there were only some way of contriving that a state or an army should be made up of lovers and their loves, they would be the very best governors of their own city, abstaining from all dishonour, and emulating one another in honour; and when fighting at each other's side, although a mere handful, they would overcome the world."

--maru (talk) contribs 03:21, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

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"They became, in effect, the “crack” force of Greek soldiery"

I am loving this... was it deliberate?

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"Crack" was an expression much used in Victorian times to describe an exceptional player in a sports team. The intention here is obviously, and hilariously, different. Crusoe (talk) 13:14, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Too big a change?

$Insertformulahere$ I’ve made some changes to the article. These changes might credibly be seen as too far-reaching. If so, please revert. I wanted just to change one paragraph at a time, but, as in the nature of paragraphs, one thing lead to another. I hope my changes make sense, and that they might inspire other editors to improve the article beyond these changes. I don’t wish to be treading on anybody’s toes. I find myself quite fond of the Sacred Band. It seems that there was previously, in this article, a representation of their grave-monument. And it was removed. What would be the Wiki rquirements of a representation of a well-known monument? MacMurrough 05:53, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Pederasty had nothing to do with the Sacred Band of Thebes

Why on Earth do they keep removing my note that the link to the Pederasty in Ancient Greece article deals with a form of homosexuality quite different from the homosexuality that was an integral part of the Band? They weren't pederasts. They were consenting adults (at least, adult by ancient Greek standards...adult enough to be sent off to war) in devoted relationships not as a mentor and his protege, but as comrades...as equals. To link pederasty from this article is misleading, and might cause some to think the Sacred Band of Thebes was nothing more than an army of pedophiles, which couldn't be further from the truth. This link NEEDS to be clarified!

Please provide an academic reference for your contention. Haiduc 03:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

• Yeah, every source I've read states that they were, in fact, pederasts... of course I cannot get any sources, mind you.. I'll start looking. Heweyeweyeweyeweyeweyewey... The Duke of Copyeditting, Bow before me! ^{You can't control me!} _{I'm a P. I.!} 23:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Logically it makes no sense, Pedastery is between a man and a boy, and how many children do you think they let into an elite fighting unit? For the time period, a warrior who was 16 or so wasn't considered a boy at all, therefore it was NOT pedastery. ~

I have to concur, pederasty in no way connected with the Sacred Band. After looking at several comments on Haiduc's talk page it becomes apparent that other users have mentioned his connection of pederasty to other unrelated topics. In a request for an academic reference, Haiduc did not actually provide one himself. On this basis I'm substituting the word pederast for homosexual. I hope this is the last discussion on the matter. For reference, Xenophon wrote that pederastic relationships should be discontinued when the boy begins to grow a beard. And, in examining the article on pederasty in Ancient Greece, it maintains that pederasty was a practice between adolescent boys and grown men. While there were relationships between older and younger men, I believe it would be the exception in virtually all cases for these relationships to be pederastic. Nudas veritas 10:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Strange that, almost a year and a half after this debate was settled, the bone of contention remains in place. I have duly removed and replaced it with "Homosexuality in ancient Greece", while the equally fallacious category gives way to "Eros in ancient Greece".

Faithfully,

Crusoe (talk) 13:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

It very clearly says "The most famous case of military pederasty in Greek history was the Sacred Band of Thebes" on page 60 of Ludwig, which is the main citation of this article. To claim that these relationships were not pederastic, you need to cite a secondary source, rather than your own interpretation. Sexual relations between a man and 16 year old male was/is still counted as pederasty; pederasty is not as fancy way of saying a paedophile! This article is marked by a significant amount of historical revision. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.69.233.113 (talk) 10:22, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

The article as it stands is internally contradictory: on the one hand it asserts that the relationships were pederastic, but then later says that the younger men were not inducted into the Band until they were 20 or 21. With the apparent retirement age of 30, what this amounts to is similar-age relationships, not even close to pederasty, as there is no way to regard a 20-year-old as a boy. To mitigate this contradiction, I have added the word "arguably" in front of "pederastic male couples". Dismalscholar (talk) 03:17, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Source for Thebes being conquered by Sparta in 404

...What is the source for this? Iridius 05:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The Symposium and the formation of the Sacred Band

This article makes a serious error. Plato's Symposium, in every estimation, was written after the formation of the Sacred Band (though its dramatic date is in the 5th century). The quote from Phaedrus' speech, therefore, cannot have inspired the Sacred Band; instead, the quote was inspired by the Sacred Band. Unfortunately, I don't have a source I can cite for this at the moment, but as soon as I find one, I'll fix the problem. --Akhilleus (talk) 07:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

They also had a "don't ask, don't tell" policy... --Quoth nevermore 17:55, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Why is the first sentence written this way?

"...troop of picked soldiers, numbering 150 age-structured which formed..." I realize that this must mean there were 150 young men and 150 older men in the band, but the sentence doesn't make sense. Is age-structured a noun? --Wragge 02:18, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Its someone's bad editing, they have removed everything to do with Homosexuality from this page. ( also if this Homosexuality in the Sacred Band of Thebes was Age-structured or Egalitarian, both sides have yet to prove anything.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.234.148.21 (talk) 09:41, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Plutarch

What does this mean:

"Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly."

Mallerd (talk) 14:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I've always wondered about that quote too - I mean, it isn't as if homosexuality was considered unseemly ("disgraceful" in the 1917 Loeb) by contemporaries, and Philip in particular was known for his, um, eclectic tastes. Perhaps Philip was simply referring to their military reputation, and the impressive nature of their last stand - ie, 'the rest of the army cracked and ran, but these chaps fought to the bitter end against overwhelming force.' 68.22.203.72 (talk) 00:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Having surveyed Plutarch (p.387 of the section of the life of Pelopidas from the Lives) briefly it appears to simply be that Philip is saying something along the lines of "these men all died not because they were weak but because they were brave; don't think less of them, they fought with honour"; the "unseemly" relates to notions of dishonour rather than sexual conduct. That's my interpretation of the quote. Pbhj (talk) 15:19, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Lokhos does not mean "children"

I changed the translation of "lokhos" from "children" to "strike-force." In no way shape or form does lokhos mean children, and "strike-force" was the best I could do. In Homer, lokhos means "ambush party" (or the ambush itself), but since the Sacred Band was a hoplite force I thought "strike-force" might be OK. Other ideas welcome of course. Jack (talk) 17:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

If it's alternative transliteration of "lochos" than Company (military unit) or Battalion might be appropriate.KTo288 (talk) 13:46, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

What's wrong with "band"? It's the way lokhos is traditionally translated in this phrase. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Strike force sounds awfully anachronistic, battalion equally so, company I still think is okay, but perhaps lacks history and poetry, how about warband, close enough to tradition, and specific enough for those who have grown up thinking a band was just a word to describe a musical ensemble.KTo288 (talk) 14:07, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I still don't understand. This article is about the Sacred Band. The Greek is provided for those readers who want it (I think there are not likely to be many). But why are we providing a different translation for the phrase that means "Sacred Band of Thebes"? For a reader who does not know Greek, this is potentially confusing. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:11, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Because of semantic drift, words lose meanings and gain new ones, look at the disambig Band not one of those usages is the same as the one here. Although on contemplation I agree with you this article is called Sacred Band of Thebes, not Sacred batallion or Sacred company. As a compromise I've created the article Lokhos and linked to it from here, modern translations and equivalents can be added there, rather than clutter this one. However that article needs help being reliant on a single book, so any help to clarify and remove obvious gaffes would be welcome.KTo288 (talk) 10:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The historical military unit itself is known in English literature as the Sacred Band, so to refer to it, or the article which deals with it, under another name would be silly and useless. However, precisely because of semantic drift, calling a military detachment a "band" sounds antique and affected. We ought to reason that in their day they were the cutting edge of military science, and so in translation we ought to use modern terminology, exactly because it does sound modern to our ears.

Nuttyskin (talk) 15:14, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Agree that renaming is unwise, perhaps impossible without seeming ignorant. These units have been referred to as Sacred Bands (really Sacred War-bands) since their inception. Too many references exist to the Sacred Band of Thebes to serve any appropriate purpose by changing the name and probably the references to them by that name should be untouched. Translators over time have agreed on "Sacred Band" and too many books reference them thusly. To rename them would be to lose connectivity to everything from Plato onward. What would one do about the multitude of chapters and references written over centuries? When I have time, to make this perfectly clear, I will add six or a dozen other print citations to Sacred Band of Thebes, but I need to do this carefully and appropriately. I added the DeVoto citation and found it best to link it to a specific point in the text. If you must refer to them differently than "Band" or "War-Band" then try "Squadron." That is one alternate that is close to "war-band," sounds modern and doesn't skew meaning. But refer to them thusly in what? Not the title, surely. In the text? I use "unit" sometimes as an exchange when I write about them or the Stepsons. Disagree that "band" sounds affected. "Band of Brothers" is a recent book and movie and the USMC MEFs still refer to themselves that way often in conversation. Trying to be helpful, not contumacious.Harmonia1 (talk) 15:35, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

SP: hitherto

Not a native english speaker here, but I don't think "thithero" as displayed in this text is an actual word. Please have a look. --92.77.63.24 (talk) 11:20, 24 February 2009 (UTC) TekGuy

It's Cicero said with a lisp.

Nuttyskin (talk) 15:06, 4 May 2010 (UTC)