Talk:Sabiha Gökçen/Archive 1

Archive 1

Armenian

I read in another part that she's of Armenian decent. Shouldn't this be added? --83.134.110.242 12:35, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

No need to write it because it's not sure. And it doesn't change anything about her race.

I have an interview script in which Sabiha Gokcen is claimed to be Armenian and I have another source in which the author proves the inaccurateness of the claims in the interview. When I have time, I will translate both and put them into discussion page, however since we do not know which one is true I propose not to add anything into the article regarding her ethnical background. -Cansın 3.00, 30 May 2005

Zeitungsdossiers in der Türkei

• http://www.hurriyetim.com.tr/haber/0,,sid~1@w~1@nvid~373270,00.asp – Artikel der türkischen Zeitung Hurriyet von 2004 zum Thema von Sabiha Gökçens armenischer Geburt. Plehn 12:17, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

citation needed

There is a paragraph which lacks of references. I searched for sources but could not find any reliable one. Maybe better to remove this part. E104421 08:16, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Protection

What a coincidence, immediately after the insertion of the speculative material, the page is blocked, just as in the similar cases on Turkic related pages. The same happened for Ataturk article [1] and already critisized [2]. In the future, i hope this will become more clear to all the Wikipedians, too. Wikipedia is not a place for speculative propaganda. This has to stop. I'm still assuming good faith. Regards. E104421 14:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Zehra

I wrote Sabiha Gökçen's own life story according to her own narration and descriptions in the TV documentary which can be seen from the links I provided below the article.

When I defined the Çankaya Presidential Residence part, I also described "Zehra, Afet and Rukiye", other adopted daughters of Atatürk who lived there.

This is important, because the death of Zehra causes Sabiha Gökçen to return earlier from the aviation school in Moscow.

But, for the sake of defending her non-existant Armenianness, this part is deleted.

Someone who reads the article will now say "who is Zehra?"

I'm ANGRY because I spent my hours to watch that documentary and write all this stuff, but for the sake of Armenian complexes, it is destroyed. 151.44.145.205 07:43, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course a newspaper is going to speculate—it's not an academic source. Dr. Hans-Lukas Kieser however, is. Regards (Khoikhoi)

I'm also a PhD, does this mean that anything I say/write is absolutely correct?

AND, given the fact that there were no proper census or demographics data before the establishment of the Turkish Republic, I really WONDER from WHICH DEMOGRAPHIC RESOURCES OR DATABASE has Dr. Hans Wurst gained the information that Gökçen's father was Armenian, despite the fact that Gökçen HERSELF describes her parents as Turks; that her father died when she was 7 and her mother died when she was 12? If they were really Armenian, she was old enough to remember. 151.44.145.205 07:53, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The article doesn't say she was Armenian for sure, or that Jugendorf is correct. It's just saying what other sources say. Keep in mind that it's not our job to show the "truth", but just state information based on reliable sources. Khoikhoi 20:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Similar "other sources" claim Atatürk was Jewish, including another "Dr." with a Germanic name (Dr. Joachim Prinz)

However, people who "naturally" protest against Atatürk being inaccurately branded as "of Jewish descent" are remaining silent when Gökçen is inaccurately branded (at least "question marked" in people's brains) as an "Armenian"; especially since Gökçen herself tells that she was the daughter of Muslim Turkish parents, that her father died when she was 7 and her mother died when she was 12, that her older brother joined the Kuvva-yı Milliye, that it was this same brother (who became a Turkish soldier) to whom Atatürk asked the 12-year-old Sabiha to "ask permission for moving to Ankara". These are all clearly expressed in the TRT documentary which I gave the YouTube links below the article, but yet the "Armenian theory" remains (which is hilarious because back in 1925 there were no proper census records in Turkey - I wonder from which "census archives" has Dr. Hans Wurst reached the conclusion that Sabiha Gökçen was of Armenian descent - apart from his "rear", of course.) 151.38.179.248 23:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Speculative Article

She is claimed to be Armenian and the reference is a an Armenian newspaper in Turkey! Do you think that newspapers are reliable scientific sources? Are you kidding or wikipedia is just a silly forum? She always mentioned how she is proud to be the first female combatant aviator and Turk! I think one day, even Ataturk will be shown as a non-Turk in this site. Who is moderating this article is a stupid or propagandaist?

Look at Turkish coffee for example, I have been banned for 3R Rule becouse a greek "friend" was injecting a claim which was "the first turkish coffee shop opened by greeks", and citate 500 years before with some greek shop web sites, the statement remained. Wikipedia about non-scientific articles is just a place for nonsense. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Utku a (talk • contribs) 05:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Technical Issue with Page Address

Firefox (2.0.0.9) seems to have problems resolving the address of this page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabiha_G%C3%B6k%C3%A7en - though the redirect from the unaccented version works correctly. Loading appears to continue indefinitely without any content appearing.

Presumably this issue affects other Wikipedia pages, but I haven't come across it before.

The problem doesn't seem to appear in Opera 9 or IE 7. Sergeirichard (talk) 15:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

EDIT: And now it works again. Perhaps the problem was on my end. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sergeirichard (talk • contribs) 18:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Hans-Lukas Kieser

I searched for the following reference given in the article: "Dr.Hans-Lukas Kieser (Swiss): Verlierer der postosmanischen Ordnung (written in:"Enteignet, Vertrieben, Ermordet. Beiträge zur Genozidforschung", Chronos Verlag 2004 Zürich, ISBN 3-0340-0642-X) Dr.Hans-Lukas Kieser writes about Sabiha Gökçens Armenian origin and others of her", but could not find any relation with Sabiha Gokcen [[3]]. Is there anyone to be sure about the validity of the reference? or is this the reference given in Agos? or not? E104421 23:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll do some research on this and try to get back to you. There's a pretty interesting discussion about her ethnicity at the German Wikipedia (I believe they mention Kieser). You can try translating it through AltaVista if you want. Khoikhoi 00:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Please delete the reference number 4, Hans-Lukas Kiesers book is not trustworthy and was also deleted in the german wikipedia. --134.155.99.41 11:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

How is it not trustworthy? Khoikhoi 06:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The official sources provided information on Sabiha Gokcen's identity, but the disputers could not dent. I had posted a comment above two months ago about the Hans-Lukas Kieser reference, but nobody provided anything. I'm repeating the same again, is it trustworthy or not? Otherwise, this is just misleding people. I already checked the German Wikipedia and it's removed from German Wikipedia. In addition, there is no such claim in French Wikipedia, too. If you are to dispute something, you should at least provide sources other than the newspaper content. I know disputing is easier than contributing, if that's your aim. Regards. E104421 08:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if she was Armenian or not, there are sources that say she may have been Armenian. The Turkish government disputes this claim. I'm not sure what's wrong with saying that... Khoikhoi 19:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

If there are reliable sources, then you should provide these sources. As an admin, you should know that Wikipedia is not a place for original research or speculative newspaper content. I'm removing these speculative original research. You may put them back if you provide something reliable. Regards. E104421 07:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not original research when I provide sources. 15:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The sources should be reliable sources, not the speculative original research material. You never explained why you pushed the Hans-Lukas Kieaser reference. Probably, you never checked that reference. Otherwise, you would make a quotation from the source into the talk/discussion page to clarify your dispute. Khoikhoi, you're pushing your dispute in a totally impolite way, since i wrote the comment on the validity of this reference two months ago, but you never explained what's written there. That's why i removed that ambiguous reference as the Wikipedians of German and French Wikipedia do too. Regards. E104421 08:53, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't really understand how this is original research. Anyway's, here's a quote:

Altinays Buch ist in drei Teile mit je zwei Kapiteln gegliedert. Der erste analysiert einen durch militärische Vorstellungen geprägten Begriff von Nation, dem auch das Frauenbild zu gehorchen hat. Eine „moderne Türkin“ diente 1937 als weltweit erste Kampfpilotin. Zwei Aspekte machen den Mythos von Sabiha Gökçen, wie die Pilotin und Adoptivtochter Atatürks hiess, höchst fragwürdig. Erstens warf sie Bomben ab auf „innere Feinde“, nämlich auf Bergdörfer weitgehend wehrloser alevitischer Kurden (mit Ausnahme des Koreakriegs und der Zyperninvasion von 1974 schoss die Armee der Republik nur auf „innere Feinde“). Zweitens war Atatürks Adoptivtochter ein armenisches Waisenmädchen - schwer zu verstehen, warum Altinay diesen seit Anfang 2004 bekannten Aspekt in ihrer Endredaktion nicht noch berücksichtigte. Die armenische Abstammung passt gar nicht zu einer wichtigen Aussage der Türkischen Geschichtsthese der 1930er-Jahre, dass nämlich die türkische Nation auf Grund rassenanthropologischer Eigenschaften zum Kriegsdienst und zur Staatsgründung prädestiniert, ja „als Soldat geboren“ sei. Gökçen, die armenische „Vorzeigetürkin“, verinnerlichte die Maximen ihres Adoptivvaters so sehr, dass sie in ihren Memoiren die türkischen Frauen als soldatische Töchter einer soldatischen Nation beschrieb. Zu ihrer Enttäuschung blieb ihr Einsatz jedoch eine Ausnahme; das Recht eine militärische Karriere einzuschlagen erhielten Bürgerinnen der Türkei - weiterhin ohne generelle Dienstpflicht der Frauen - erst in den 1990er-Jahren. Afet Inan, eine weitere Adoptivtocher Atatürks und grosse Verfechterin der Geschichtsthese, verfasste unter Anleitung ihres Adoptivvaters ein Schulbuch mit dem Titel Staatskunde, wovon ein Teil Colmar von der Goltz' Schrift „Das Volk in Waffen“ (1883) bzw. dessen osmanische Übersetzung aus dem Jahre 1884 resümierte.

You do the translation - it clearly says she was "an Armenian orphan girl". Khoikhoi 09:02, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I have been watching this only from a distance so I don't know exactly what's going on. Is the problem with the reliability of the sources? Who is Hans-Lukas Kieaser? Baristarim 09:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I checked the Khoikhoi's link. Just a speculative Anti-Turkic propaganda. There is nothing more than original research there. What the mainstream of historians/scientists support is important for an encyclopedia. If you're interested in conspiracy theories or Anti-Turkism, you should carry this dispute content there. Maybe better. Regards. E104421 09:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Well this link: http://hsozkult.geschichte.hu-berlin.de/rezensionen/type=rezbuecher&id=6038 is a official Page of the Humboldt-University. Saying that the Humboldt-University is teaching or proclaiming Anti-Turk "Propaganda" is a big mistake, because it is the first University in Berlin and was found "by the liberal Prussian educational reformer and linguist Wilhelm von Humboldt, whose university model has strongly influenced other European and Western universities" (Quote English Wikipedia) and this standard had been kept up until today. So it is actually in Germany a Book (the one by Ayse Gül Altinay) which is acknowledged.

Regardless of what you think of it, it's still verifiable, and definately not "original research". If you want to say that mainstream of historians disagree, then prove it. I cannot understand why saying she might have been Armenian is anti-Turkish, but whatever. Khoikhoi 09:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Please, do not mix my statements. I said the page is pushing Anti-Turkic content. On the other hand, you are pushing the dispute, you should provide reliable sources to support this claim. There are many sources in the world pushing speculative original research, should we carry them all to Wikipedia? You're just interested in these kind of things rather than logical/rational ones. Even Sabiha Gokcen herself declared and clarified her parents in the interviews. Regards. E104421 09:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure my source meets WP:RS, if I'm wrong, please explain why. You also claim my source is original research, but if you look at WP:NOR, the "page in a nutshell" states, "Articles may not contain any unpublished arguments, ideas, data, or theories; or any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published arguments, ideas, data, or theories that serves to advance a position." Is my source unpublished? No. Is it a synthesis of sources? No. What's wrong with just giving both sources and letting the reader decide if she was Armenian or not? Isn't that how WP:NPOV works? It's not our job to sway the reader towards one POV or the other. Khoikhoi 09:51, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

This is a biography page and your speculative original research source does not reflect any consensus of the mainstream of the field. Furthermore, the article is not nominating her identity to the voters. There are many published speculative sources which reflects POV push and original research. These cannot be used to support a claim. For example, you cannot push Hitler's Mein Kampf to support Anti-Semitism. What you're doing here is analogous to this example. Don't do it. It's not a rational/logical way. Regards. E104421 10:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

WP:BLP only applies to living people. Secondly, even if it doesn't reflect the "consensus of the mainstream", it's not like I'm saying it's an undisputed fact that she was Armenian, I'm just saying she might have been. Saying the source is "speculative" is just your opinion, as it's a published work and as I said already, a verifiable one. Do you really think the man would just say she was Armenian without looking into it? Khoikhoi 10:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Just a single original research does not make her identity disputed and cannot be used. As in the case that Hitler's Mein Kampf cannot be used even it's a published source. Just like that. Your source was removed from German and French Wikipedias. Have you ever think why these speculations started after her death? The answer is simple: Sabiha Gokcen herself clarified her real parents in the interviews. Regards. E104421 10:37, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not "a single" source, I cited the BBC as well. Also, you have still failed to explain to me how it's original reserach (instead you compared it to Mein Kampf...). As for that last thing you said, do you really think someone who is adopted is going to be 100% sure on who her parents really were? Khoikhoi 10:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

That depends on the person's memory. She was adopted when she was 13 not as in your source as 5. On the other hand, there is nothing in the BBC page about your original research reference. BBC just mentions the speculation as "...newspaper speculation that her father might have been Armenian - killed in the mass slaughter of Armenians in 1915 - has provoked uproar..." BBC also considers this as a provocative speculation. Regards. E104421 11:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course a newspaper is going to speculate—it's not an academic source. Dr. Hans-Lukas Kieser however, is. Regards, Khoikhoi 01:44, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

You never read Hans-Lukas Kieser source, so you cannot speculate on its reliability. It's removed from German and French Wikipedias. You're just interested in speculative material on Turkic related topics, not the rational/logical ones. Regards. E104421 14:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the made up "Armenian roots" stuff. No relevant information or sources cited in the book. It looks like it is made up by the author without any evidence at all (hard to undersand why 'though) .. --88.106.105.186 14:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I reverted back, You can not just remove sited information because you don't understand it. Article isn't saying that shes Armenian, only that she may be and I belive thats a very relevant information to be included. VartanM 18:43, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I read the book 2 days ago. The main thing I did not understand is why the author says she "may" be an Armenian, because it does not cite any published sources, he just makes this up and I did not understand this issue. I can say Yerevan is actually a Turkish city, and as a "personal theory" it would true. Right? Please read my note carefully because I think you have a problem understanding what you read. This book cannot be a solid reference, it is no more than a personal theory. --88.106.114.175 22:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

By your logic every source is unreliable because someone, somewhere, sometime wrote something without a source. I'm sorry if you don't understand, but according to wikipedia rules there is nothing wrong with that section. It is attributed to Hans-Lukas Kieser and the reader will judge whether he/she wants to believe Hans-Lukas Kieser or not. You obviously don't, and thats OK with me. VartanM 23:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, as long as it's stated as "According to Hans-Lukas Kieser, ..." in the article, we'll let reader to judge. On the other hand, i'm wondering what's written exactly in the book. The book caused much controversy here in the talk page but nobody provided any direct quotation from the book. Of course, whether Hans-Lukas Kieser's book is an original research or not is another question. I shall greatly appreciate if somebody makes a direct quotation from the Hans-Lukas Kieser's book along with its sources. Thanks in advance. Regards. E104421 16:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes until then this is not a relevant reference --88.106.27.65 02:02, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Thats not good enough, If you indeed have the book, maybe you can scan the page where its says that she may be Armenian. Until then the info will stay and further removal of it will be reported. VartanM 02:09, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you do the scan and put it somewhere so we can all see.. It is easy to put an irrelevant reference from an irrelevant book full of imaginary words.. You are so full of it VartanM, if you know what I mean. That's a common problem, people are mostşy not objective. Well I don't expect "you" to be objective (based on your wiki name!) but at least you should have read the book and then fought for it.. You just mumble stuff, you cannot give even one background info on what you stand for and try to intimidate people. Wiki is full of people like you and I am really sick of it. Do you even really know what "objective" means? --88.238.193.38 (talk) 22:04, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Hans-Lukas Kieser is a published author and a WP:RS reliable source according to wikipedia rules. And the material is properly attributed to him and isn't stated as fact. So, please stop removing it, or else I'll be forced to report you to the administrators. VartanM (talk) 22:16, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Requested Quotation

• I shall greatly appreciate if somebody provides the requested quotations, otherwise i'll remove the Hans-Lukas Kieser related sentences. The request quote time is up. Regards. E104421 (talk) 10:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Extra Addition

If you really think that she is or may be Armenian, why don't you create a separate paragraph that would say:

"=Origins=

It is being speculated in Turkey that she is or may be Armenian (then cite etc.)"

Otherwise it is becoming very unencyclopedic.

Now the real question:

Is there ANY other female (non combat) pilot before her? If not, that makes the first female pilot period. --Eae1983 (talk) 16:43, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

• There were many female pilots before her, including Raymonde de Laroche, Thérèse Peltier, Amelie Beese, Hélène Dutrieu and of course Amelia Earhart --60.240.112.112 (talk) 05:24, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Armenian descent category

The article has been included Turkish people of Armenian descent category. There are claims that she is an Armenian. She might be, or not, it can be stated in the article. But she should not be added to that category, because there is no certain information. So, I am taking her out of this category.--Cfsenel (talk) 08:21, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Armenian claim

these Armenian claims are baseless because official claims show her birth place as Bursa. Even herself says she is the daughter of the Turkish officer. If you cant count the biggest newspaper in Turkey as a source, we also should have a problem about the neutraltity of the smaller Armenian claims. You dont have a right to count what you want to believe and Not what is right. this is the version that should be there:

Sabiha Gökçen (March 21, 1913, Bursa - March 22, 2001, Ankara) was the first Turkish female aviator and the first female combat pilot of the world. She was one of the eight adoptive children of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. Some modern sources claim that she was of Armenian origin (like the claim of Armenian Agop Newspaper published in Turkish newspaper Hurriyet from 21. Feb 2004), but this is disputed by a lot of official sources including herself who claims she was the daughter of the head clerk Hafız Mustafa İzzet who was exiled to Bursa by Sultan Abdulhamid II. The official documents testify her claims.[4],

85.101.57.181 05:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course "offical claims" aren't going to say she was Armenian. How about this source? It's from the U.S. Dept. of State. And I quote:

In February, the Hurriyet newspaper's publication of a report that Sabiha Gokcen--an adopted daughter of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who was the country's first female pilot--was of Armenian descent drew a number of racist public statements. The Turkish General Staff issued a statement criticizing the reports on Gokcen's Armenian ancestry as "a claim that abuses national values and feelings" while the Turkish Air Association called the report "an insult" to Gokcen and to Ataturk.

—Khoikhoi 05:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

again it gives a reference to "unneutral" hurriyet newspaper so i guess you are going to have to remove that. Also if you count hurriyet, you have to give the whole story not just cut one part that you like of it. This is meaningless since she herself states she was not an armenian and the article in Hurriyet is writing that too along with official records. 85.101.57.181 05:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, hurriyet has been removed. Anything else you're not happy with? The fact is that the Armenian claims are notable, and deserve to be mentioned regardless whether it's true or not. After all, "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". —Khoikhoi 05:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

the thing is, the claims insist that she wasnt born in Bursa, but she says she was and the official records show her parents. Even her sister made an announcement blaming the armenian claims,yet i cannot put them here coz you dont count a turkish newspaper but an armenia newspaper called Agos? all these conspiracies couldnt be done by the armenian Agos newspaper when she was alive and they say they didnt do it "not to offend her". They also had said she was against Ataturk and stuff(lol), people talk specially if you are in a country like Turkey but you have to base it with solid evidence. 85.101.57.181 05:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I see what you mean, that's why we're not basing the article off the claims, but just stating what they are. Anyways, how do you know that the sources I provided (BBC & US Dept. of State) get it from Agos? Heh, I'm not sure why they'd say she was against Atatürk—I have to get some sleep. —Khoikhoi 06:10, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

ok ive found her own autobiography where she states she is the daughter of Bursa Provincial head clerk Hafız Mustafa İzzet Bey and Hayriye Hanım. If we are going to give both sides we should give that too. Metb82 08:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

You are completely right. Her parents were Mustafa İzzet Bey and Hayriye Hanım. The baseless claim that she is armenian is made by an armenian nationalist Hrant Dink who is known for making far fetched statements. There is no proof for it whatsoever. Records show she was born in Bursa to Mustafa İzzet Bey and Hayriye Hanım. She herself verified it several times over. It is just another cheap attempt by some people to claim a famous person as their own

"Im as Turk as Ataturk" - Sabiha Gökçen (http://arama.hurriyet.com.tr/arsivnews.aspx?id=204528) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.246.43.81 (talk) 11:24, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Hrant Dink was no nationalist...so what's the point of this statement, other than to show, that you are biased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.179.37.65 (talk) 01:32, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Exact page number on the book of Dr. Hans-Lukas Kieser

Has someone actually read this book?

If so, please also add on which page (page number) Dr. Hans-Lukas Kieser mentions Gökçen's Armenian origin.

Because from what I have heard, the book doesn't mention anything about this at all.

Without the specific page number clearly stated, a "book title" can't be enough evidence for a historic claim.

Nor is a "newspaper".

Until the specific book page is added, I suggest the controversial Armenian origin claim to be removed (it's not a "fact", only a "claim").

Especially when Sabiha Gökçen herself tells that her parents were Muslim Turks, that her father died when she was 7 and her mother died when she was 12, that her older brother joined the Kuvva-yı Milliye. 151.42.182.144 20:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

• I concur. E104421 10:01, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• Here you go (Gökçen, die armenische „Vorzeigetürkin“). Khoikhoi 10:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• This is not from the Dr. Hans-Lukas Kieser's book and it's not sourced. Regards. E104421 22:51, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Well actually, if you take a look, it says: Review BY Hans-Lukas Kieser; Hans-Lukas Kieser über [on] Altinay, Ayse Gül: The Myth of the Military- Nation. Militarism, Gender, and Education in Turkey. New York 2004. In: H-Soz-u-Kult 09.02.2006. It is from his book. And I bet you don't speak German as good as I do:) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.179.37.65 (talk) 01:50, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Familyname

According to TDK's Kişi Adları Sözlüğü, Gökçen means:

Köken : T. Cinsiyet : Erkek Söyleyiş : Anlam : Güzel, hoş kimse.

Köken : T. Cinsiyet : Kız Söyleyiş : Anlam : Güzel, hoş kimse.

Takabeg (talk) 07:16, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Sabiha Gokcen's ethnic identity

I find it unreasonable to disproportionately place WP:WEIGHT on her Turkish ethnicity instead of her Armenian identity. Firstly, there are more than enough sources that verify the claims of her Armenian background. These include academic sources, newspaper articles, books, and etc. Therefore, the claims are legitimate and not just some baseless allegation. The controversial aspect of it has more to do with public reaction in Turkey rather than her identity itself. Therefore, I believe the part about her Armenian identity should be restored in the early life section. It seems like there has been a consensus in the article regarding this issue for around two years now when user MarshallBagramyan placed it back in September 2012. So I propose starting the first sentence of the Early Life as: "Gokcen's origins are a matter of dispute. According to official Turkish sources...etc. In 2004, however, it was revealed that she was Armenian...etc." We have more than enough sources that say her origins are disputed so I think it will be appropriate for her Early Life section. Étienne Dolet (talk) 04:15, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Her possible Armenian ethnicity should be noted and attributed, but not claimed as truth. --Antelope Hunter (talk) 12:58, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Completely unacceptable. As I said earlier on the Turkish People article, it's just uncorroborated and uncertain a "claim". Allegations that are of Armenian descent, too add early life section just absürd and extreme nationalism. In this regard, where a dispute theory, only your own personal thought! If this edit war and fait accompli persists, topic will be moved to arbitration and request for WP:3O - Maurice07 (talk) 15:44, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of what our personal opinions are, one thing remains certain. Her identity is disputed and we have more than enough sources that says it is disputed. Her ethnic identity and the controversy behind its claims in 2004 should be held separate from one another. Remember, her identity and the controversy behind it are two different things. I know of no neutral source since 2004 that claims she is 100% of anything with the exception of a few sources from both sides of the debate. Her identity from that point on has been placed under a disputed context giving equal credibility for both claims. I think we should do the same here. Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:36, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, do government sources say otherwise so that we do not characterize them as official?--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 22:30, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

All sources one-sided and unreliable. Already, there are two reference. Agos is Armenian newspaper in Istanbul and other Hürriyet's source is based on Armenian historian Pars Tuğlacı. And escholarship likewise, taken as reference from Armenian and Turkish newpapapers clippings. I think; before 2004 or after, doesn't notice anything. Unless there is a reliable source or official statement on this issue, they cannot go beyond being just a claim! Lastly, please refer Al-Farabi. There are strong arguments that his Turkish origin but no any info related to Turkish in his biography! Maurice07 (talk) 13:18, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

First off, just because a source is "Armenian" doesn't make it one-sided and unreliable. Separating sources based off ethnicity is far from the WP:AGF and WP:RS policies Wikipedia maintains. But more importantly, were not here to prove Gokcen's ethnic identity as an Armenian or Turk. Her identity is heavily disputed since 2004. Since it is a topic of debate by numerous newspapers, books, articles, and etc., we are in no position to make our own conclusions to the matter. I will be surprised to find a third-party source since 2004 that claims she's 100% Turkish. As for Al-Farabi, there's two separate sections that provide a detailed account of both theories on his origin. I think Sabiha's article is different in that regard since her biography is presently the only section that has the potential of including both claims. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:32, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Claims are not absolute fact

Dear Etienne,

You seem determined to categorically state that Sabiha Gokcen's ethnicity is "disputed". This is false considering how the article starts with her being a "Turkish aviator". You might think this is a moot point but it is not; The fact that Sabiha Gokcen, her ancestry and her biological family are Turkish have been a basic fact since 1913, when she was born. Any website OTHER than Wikipedia will tell you that. Just because a single, vague "interview" conducted by the Armenian Hrant Dink and published by him in a pro-Armenian journal, conveniently after Gokcen's death when she could not simply deny these claims, does not indicate that her ethnicity suddenly becomes without any doubt "disputed".

As her immediate family, conventional history, and Gokcen's family history all indicate that Gokcen is Turkish, a fact simple and not so complicated as you're making it out to be, it seems that the only basis for "dispute" is a single Armenian article which is being used as fact by, well, only Armenians.

To state that her identity is "disputed" implies that she is not Turkish, and therefore makes Dink's claims, which are CLAIMS and NOT FACTS which have moreover been DENIED BY GOKCEN'S FAMILY, into fact. This is unacceptable, subjective, and nationalistic. Wikipedia is SUPPOSED to be an objective platform.

There are Armenian claims perpetuated by Dink's article, the existence of these claims are outlined on the Wikipedia page. That should be more than enough. And let's be honest here, saying her "origins are disputed" is basically saying "we can't prove that she's Armenian, because she's not, but we're going to say it's disputed to make you believe that she is anyway".

Also, any peer-reviewed professional source which is not produced through the whims of Armenian nationalism will indicate clearly that Gokcen is Turkish and that there is no "dispute" over this simple fact, see:

http://www.centennialofwomenpilots.com/node/57 http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/gokcen.html http://goefoundation.org/index.php/eagles/biographies/g/goeken-sabiha/ http://cinemaguild.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TCGS&Product_Code=2146 www.notablebiographies.com/supp/Supplement-Fl-Ka/G-k-en-Sabiha.html

None of these are Turkish sources by the way. And most of them are after 2004. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sekarca (talk • contribs) 07:44, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Also, I would add that in her own autobiography she clearly states who her biological parents are and that she is Turkish. This is in addition to every interview she has given, in which she says "I am as Turkish as Ataturk". Furthermore, every other Wikipedia page on Sabiha Gokcen, German, Spanish, etc, does not in any way state that her origins are disputed. The only disputers it seems to me are the Armenian editors on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theobjektivist (talk • contribs) 17:40, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

"Claims are not absolute fact" - Well, we never said it was...

We've had a consensus for quite some time regarding her ethnic identity. The community, including myself, has insisted to have credence to the official discourse by mentioning it firstly in the Early Life section before all other claims.

Let's not forget that nationality and ethnic identity/origins are two very different things. When sources refer to her as a Turkish pilot, they merely point to the fact that she lived in Turkey. There's no mention of her ethnic identity in any of the sources you provided. In fact, contrary to what you claim, most of these sources either predate 2004 or have no date at all. I only found this www.notablebiographies.com/supp/Supplement-Fl-Ka/G-k-en-Sabiha.html source relevant but then again, it places her identity under context of an "official account".

As for her Armenian identity, there's more than enough sources that show it's disputed to say the least. Many sources present her identity as debated or "causing a row" let alone others that attest to the fact that she's Armenian. The mere fact that there's two sides to this story and that there is a considerable debate which may have cost the lives of journalists like Hrant Dink should be taken into consideration in that regard.

Some of these sources include academic publications, newspapers, and books such as:

Turkish newspapers: Radikal ([5]), Hurriyet ([6]), Milliyet, Gundem Vatan, and many others that use the word 'tartışma' when referring to her ethnic identity.

Western newspapers: BBC, Economist

Academia: [7], [8], [9], [10]

There's also been recent developments by Aris Nalci with this piece and journalist Kazim Gundogan who says the Sabiha Gokcen havaalanı should be renamed Xatun Sebelciyan havaalanı.

As for the other Wikipedia's you mentioned, see Wikipedia:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. But, in light of your argument, the Turkish Wikipedia seems to have an entire section devoted to claims of her Armenian identity. Ain't that a treat?

As for the names of her parents. You're right. I propose removing it. If her identity is disputed, the name of her parents shouldn't be in the infobox. Thanks for bringing that up. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:23, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Every single "source" that you have posted is with regard to the newspaper article published by Dink. They are not academic sources about Gokcen, they are news reports reporting on what Dink had published. But you're willing to go so far as to delete her parents? That's basically ultra-nationalist behavior. Do you realize that you're talking about deleting the people that she clearly states as her biological parents in her autobiography, Atatürk'le Bir Ömür? That's not good enough, but a single article from a random nationalist Armenian article is? And you honestly believe you're being impartial??? What next, you're going to delete that she was born in Bursa and replace it with Yerevan? Sekarca (talk) 21:13, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Sources, whether they be from academia, news outlets, or books, often validate previous or outstanding claims. That is the case with the sources I have aforementioned. Contrary to what you say, the sources include those from the academic world as well. So, regardless of who started the ball rolling with the claim, we know that it was taken very seriously. Therefore, in respect to the seriousness taken in regards to this account and the reverberation it has received in a vast amount sources, we as Wikipedia editors should take into account of this as well. Again, this isn't to say these claims are "absolute fact" either. Our job as Wikipedia editors is to reflect what sources say. We are doing nothing less than that here.

Her memoirs aren't a credible source either. Do you really expect Sabiha Gokcen, the daughter of Ataturk, to expose her Armenian identity to the Turkish public? Do you think she would actually do that? I think you're being disingenuous here.

And please, I'd appreciate it if you stop the WP:BADFAITH remarks towards me. Thanks, Étienne Dolet (talk) 22:21, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I moved controversial claims into appropriate section.

I think, it would be more proper in this case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ggggh12ru (talk • contribs) 23:48, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

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Early life

Hi guys, I think that currently her "Early life" focuses way too much on speculations about her ethnicity. This should be saved for the "Controversies" part in my opinion. Besides that, it's a bit double. Her "Early life" is about speculations about her ethnicity and this again is repeated in the "Controversies" part. I suggest that we actually write about her "Early life" in the early life section, and not about articles from 2004 (three years after she passed away). In the Turkish Wikipedia in the section that describers her early life her father is described, who raised her till she got adopted is described, her education, a treatement she got in Vienna after she got adopted which led her to temporarily stop her education is described, and how she got her surname is described. The claims about her ethnicity are saved for later. I think that we should try to keep a similar structure here as well. Since the entire debate about her ethnicity started after she passed away. MrUnoDosTres (talk) 02:25, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Spouse?

I removed the reference in the infobox that said her spouse was George P. Putnam. Putnam was the husband of Amelia Earhart and there isn't anything in the article about him that says he married Sabiha Gokcen. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 09:01, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi Metropolitan90, you did the right thing. She was only married once, briefly to Kemal Esiner between 1940-1943. She was never married to George P. Putnam. MrUnoDosTres (talk) 02:57, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

First?

"She was the first female combat pilot in the world" Really??? "MARIE MARVINGT, 1875-1963: 1915 - Served as volunteer pilot flying bomber missions over Germany." source wp --95.188.92.90 (talk) 13:05, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

According to Tammy M. Proctor's Civilians in a World at War, 1914-1918, "Trained French pilot Marie Marvingt offered to fly for the French war effort, but the government rejected her offer and requisitioned her airplane instead". Takabeg (talk) 13:25, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

According to Paul John Bailey's Gender and Education in China: Gender Discourses and Women's Schooling in the Early Twentieth Century, In 1915 she served as a volunteer pilot flying bombing missions over German-held Metz.

About Sabiha, a report of the General Staff mentioned the "serious damage" that had been caused by her 50 kg bomb, upun a group of 50 fleeing bandits.

Sabiha dropped bombs and her aim was to kill people. I don't know whether Marie Marvingt dropped bombs or not, killed people or not. Because she was a surgical nurse and she flew for the purpose of establishing a civilian air ambulance. Takabeg (talk) 13:37, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

So, 50 bandits... serious damages... Sounds great! Wow!.. However it absolutelly does not matter whether Marie Marvingt drop bombs or not, killed somebody or not, caused serious damage or not)... There only important thing - she flying bomber (means COMBAT!, not ambulance, not training) missions during the war over enemy positions. A lot of combat pilots (I think most of them) did not kill a single man. Do you know this? So, therefore she was the combat pilot... when Sabiha was only 2 years baby. --195.112.238.223 (talk) 09:21, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

One more... еще: "In 1915, Marvingt became the first woman in the world to fly combat missions when she became a volunteer pilot flying bombing missions over German-held territory and she received the Croix de Guerre (Military Cross) for her aerial bombing of a German military base in Metz."  :)) --95.188.92.90 (talk) 14:21, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

We prefer sourced information to your own unsourced composition. I personally don't claim that Sabiha is "world's first female fighter pilot". But according to sources, she was the "world's first female fighter pilot". Do you know that Fighter aircraft is different from bomber aircraft ? Takabeg (talk) 14:54, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't know was she first fighter woman pilot or not. However she was not first combat woman pilot. Therefore I remove this section. First combat woman pilot was Marie Marvingt as a lot of sources said (look above). --95.188.92.90 (talk) 15:09, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

You can add sources to the article Marie Marvingt. Takabeg (talk) 15:24, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I will do it later. However situation still unclear about the first female combat pilot. I found some info about princess E.M.Shakhovskaya Russian aviatrix who flew reconnaissance combat sorties in 1914. Unfortunately all sources in Russian. I try to find the better one in English. --95.188.92.90 (talk) 15:42, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Dear Takabeg! Please look here. I was really surprise, this source said Shakhovskaya was the first female fighter pilot in the world (!). :) However it still unclear whether she flew fighters or not. Most probably she flew only for reconnaissance duties as I wrote above. --95.188.92.90 (talk) 15:53, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

The problem with Marie Marvingt is, she never officially got that rank while Sabiha Gökçen did officially get that rank. That is the biggest and most imporant difference. Sabiha got the education to become a combat pilot. Marie only volunteered in WW1. For example, Japan only recently (since 2015) allowed females to become fighter pilots. It doesn't mean that during their entire history no women ever flew to combat. But they never officially had that rank. So, it is difficult to say what they did, especially if it isn't properly recorded. From what I've read Marie Marvingt was NOT an official combat pilot, but she is the first woman who did an aerial bombing mission. I've also read that Russia's first woman pilot (again not a combat pilot!) Nedeshda Degtereva is the first female who got wounded during combat while flying. But Sabiha Gökçen is the first official combat pilot, because she didn't just partake in combat, but also got her pilot's licence and went through the official education at that time which was required to become an official combat pilot. MrUnoDosTres (talk) 02:57, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Armenian?

If the allegations that she was Armenian were made in 2004 after she died, and she says she is of Bosniak origin, wouldn't it be more accurate to write that she was originally from Bosniak? Why do we take into account the claims of the Armenians rather than her own words? These allegations could have been made while she was alive, but were made after she died, without giving her a say. And Wikipedia's free encyclopedia records information according to the Armenian claimants, who do not give Sabiha Gökçen the right to speak. At the very least you should have written that it was controversial. It would be more accurate to be Bosniak than to write Armenian about her because she said so. Please be fair. BurakD53 (talk) 16:05, 12 July 2022 (UTC)