This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'll try to find time for this one in the coming days. Shooterwalker (talk) 04:29, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Let's get started with the body and see how far we get.
Gameplay
"collection of two pinball tables, each with their own layout, storyline, and thematic: Ruiner and Tower." -> "choice of two different pinball tables: Ruiner and Tower" (I'm guessing you play them one at a time. Being different implies layout and theme.)
"taking place in a medieval fantasy setting where an adventurer enters a castle to defeat an evil sorceress" -> "styled as a medieval fantasy setting with an evil sorceress." (simpler)
"There are targets for the player to increase scoring opportunities by performing several shots with flippers before the ball is lost" -> "The player can increase their score by hitting special targets, before the ball is lost."
"free balls" -> this might need a clearer description
Done -- I changed it to extra balls
"There are three difficulty levels and the player can enter the number of participants, set the number of balls to play, turn the picture-in-picture display window on or off, or apply texture to the ball in the game's options menu" -> "The player can select from three difficulty levels, as well as setting the number of players, and the number and texture of the ball(s)."
I'm going to pause on the development, because there's a similar sourcing issue to White Men Can't Jump. There is far too much WP:WEIGHT on a single forum post, which is questionably reliable. It will need to drastically be scaled back. I also understand the motivation for trying to credit everyone in the game for their work, but keep in mind that Wikpedia is WP:NOTDIRECTORY. If someone's credit can only be noted in the game's manual, it doesn't belong in the article. Noting the lack of a credit also verges on WP:OR. I know that means losing a lot of the development section, but I believe it will be stronger once it's cleaned up and combined with the release section. Shooterwalker (talk) 13:08, 5 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Shooterwalker:Done with the first pass! Hey, any changes that needs to be addressed i'll gladly do it without issues. I do have a feeling this one might be harder to pull off compared to White Men Can't Jump but i do hope everything that needs to be tackles turns out A-OK. Roberth Martinez (talk) 01:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
The biggest one is going to be what I just said about the development section. I don't think a consensus of Wikipedia editors would allow an entire paragraph / half a section to be sourced to a forum post. (And many would call for it to be removed entirely.) I know that's a big change, so let me try to offer an outside perspective on what we might lose.
"In 2014, Corley discussed about the game's production in a thread on the 3DO Zone fan community forums." -> remove. Readers care what the source says, and learn nothing from just knowing there was a source.
"HVS proposed a pinball game project to Atari, as many of the company's staff were pinball fans and liked the idea of making one," -> remove. No real loss since it's implied that every developer talks to their publisher about what they should make.
I think it would be a good idea having this line, as it gives away how the game originated. I did removed the part that says "and liked the idea of making one". Roberth Martinez (talk) 22:36, 9 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
"with Corley citing Raster Blaster (1981) and Night Mission Pinball (1982) as his childhood favorites." -> remove, with some interest. The game's inspiration is important, but it gets less weight because it's really one team member, and more just something they liked.
"HVS pitched the project by showing a working demo written within days by Corley, who was given free rein to make it by Ganofsky. Atari greenlit the project upon seeing the demo and HVS began working on the game." -> remove. The demo process isn't particularly special and it's sort of implied in any game development process.
"Corley recalled that at one point during development, Atari requested a name for the game so they could advertise it. He christened the game Ruiner, named after the song of the same name on the album The Downward Spiral by Nine Inch Nails, when looking through his personal music collection. Corley told the name to Ganofsky, who proceeded to send it to Atari." condense, with some interest. The name of the game can be interesting to readers, but it might not need this much coverage in the article.
Done -- I took the suggetion you made and introduced it into the development section. Roberth Martinez (talk) 22:36, 9 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
"Initially, the game was intended to have a single table, however, Atari requested to add a second table." -> condense, with more interest. Readers will benefit from learning about a significant change in the game and an unexpected twist in the process.
Done -- I took the suggetion you made and introduced it into the development section. Roberth Martinez (talk) 22:36, 9 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
"The artwork for the Ruiner table was hand-drawn and painted by Baker on a large board. The artwork was scanned, pieced together, and corrected using Deluxe Paint. Corley said the process was a difficult task because at the time "there was no scanner that large"." -> condense, with more interest. This is another unusual aspect of production that would be lost if we didn't cover it.
Done -- I took the suggetion you made and introduced it into the development section. Roberth Martinez (talk) 22:36, 9 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
This is my best attempt to condense it down:
"According to Corley, the game was named "Ruiner" after the song of the same name from the album The Downward Spiral by Nine Inch Nails."
"As development continued, Atari requested a second table."
"Baker created the game's artwork on a large hand-painted board, which was scanned into Deluxe Paint slowly, part by part."
Even so, I'm not sure three sentences from a forum post is appropriate. But let's start here. Are you sure there aren't any other sources about the game's development? Shooterwalker (talk) 13:50, 8 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Shooterwalker:I'll tackle these points one by one tomorrow after i'm done with some irl stuff i need to attend. I'll let you know once i'm done with the second pass! Roberth Martinez (talk) 03:06, 9 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Shooterwalker:Done with the second pass! I merged the development and release sections into one after making the changes you suggested. Although i did find sources that gives background to Corley as to who he is, i did not find anything in relation to the game's development outside of the 3DO Zone forum post by him. I legit tried but came off pretty much empty handed unfortunately. It is the only recollection of the game's development that i could find unless a publication like Retro Gamer or Time Extension takes interest in the game to do an interview with former HVS members, which i doubt it will happen in the near future. I know that sucks but i just work with what i can find. Let me know when you bring further comments! Roberth Martinez (talk) 22:36, 9 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
You've done a lot to improve this and I want to keep going.
Development and reception
Would you mind posting to the Video Games WikiProject (Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Video_games) asking for guidance on how to handle the development and release here? You can present the issue, that the only coverage of this development is sourced to a forum post, and otherwise we might lose valuable information about how this game was made. I'd like to get a third opinion just to see if anyone else has encountered this issue and has any advice.
My most important comment here: The comparisons are more distracting than they are useful. At first, they felt like they just made the sentences long and wander off topic, to games that the average reader wouldn't know about. But I'm seeing some recurring comparisons (like Dragon's Fury and Dragon's Revenge and Crüe Ball) and would considering getting these all out of the way in a single sentence. "Reviewers compared the game unfavorably to other contemporary pinball games, such as Game X,[1] Game Y, [2], and Game Z.[3][4]" (Otherwise, they tend to clutter the other sentences and make this less readable.)
" Game Zero Magazine's two reviewers criticized its bland visuals, unattractive music, and ball physics. They compared the game unfavorably to Crüe Ball (1992) on the Sega Genesis and recommended any of the pinball titles on the TurboGrafx-16 instead" -> Game Zero Magazine criticized the game's visuals, music, and ball physics, instead recommending pinball titles for rival consoles."
"The Electric Playground called it "the Latoya Jackson of video pinball games". They said that the gameplay is dull and tedious, and that the overly busy visuals cause the ball to be frequently lost against the backgrounds." -> "The Electric Playground described the gameplay as tedious, while criticizing the busy visuals for obscuring the ball's position."
"MAN!AC's Robert Bannert compared its visuals unfavorably to Dragon's Fury (1991), stating that most of the game's elements tend to get lost in the hand-drawn backgrounds and pointed out the lack of bonus rounds, recommending Pinball Fantasies (1992) instead." -> "MAN!AC's Robert Bannert also described how many game elements are lost in the hand-drawn backgrounds, and additionally criticized the lack of bonus rounds."
"Véronique Boissarie of Consoles + found Ruiner Pinball to be an original and well-designed pinball game, praising its colorful graphics, audio department, and playability, but criticized the blurry scrolling." -> "Véronique Boissarie of Consoles + praised Ruiner's colorful graphics and playability, feeling that it was an overall well-designed and original pinball game."
" VideoGames compared it with other pinball video games like Crüe Ball and Dragon's Revenge (1993). They criticized the graphics and plot of the two tables, while also remarking that the game does not simulate the feel of playing pinball accurately." ->" VideoGames felt that the game failed to simulate the feeling of a real pinball game, while criticizing the graphics and layout of both tables."
"Next Generation explained that the game does not play well due to the "rigid" animation and unpredictable physics. They added that the game makes good use of the video game format with its multi-level tables and animated targets, but that these elements are "superfluous" without good gameplay." -> "Next Generation described how the animations and multi-level tables made good use of the video game format, but felt these elements were "superfluous" due to the flawed gameplay and physics."
"Author Andy Slaven gave favorable remarks to the colorful and eye-catching visuals but found the physics unrealistic, stating that it fails to convey the feeling of a real pinball game." -> "Author Andy Slaven praised the game's colorful visuals, but felt that the unrealistic physics failed to capture the feeling of pinball."
"In a retrospective outlook for The Atari Times, David Sherwin praised the Ruiner table for its graphical quality and sound effects, but criticized the Tower table for having little detail and lackluster music. -> "In a retrospective outlook for The Atari Times, David Sherwin felt that the audiovisual elements for the Ruiner table were much stronger than the Tower table."
Consider putting the shorter comments (Retro Gamer and PC Mag) at the start of the section. Usually "mixed" works better when you describe the good before the bad.
That's all for the first pass. Again, the references on the development section will be the big issue. But if we can cover that (plus the copy edits), we can hopefully get this to GA. Shooterwalker (talk) 20:54, 10 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Shooterwalker:Done with the third pass! I merged the retrospective paragraph into the main reception section, given that the reworked paragraph is now much shorter than before. I also posted the main issue at the talk page you linked to me, hopefull we may get more opinions about this. Roberth Martinez (talk) 22:40, 10 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for posting about the sourcing issue, and I see good signs we can use it. I'm still glad we trimmed it back, because we don't want to rely too much on sources like this. We'll wait for more comments on that, and continue working on the article with a full second pass.
Lead
"The game is a collection of two pinball tables featuring their own layout, storyline, and thematic." -> The game features two different pinball tables: the nuclear war inspired Ruiner, and the medieval themed Tower.
"Each table contains objectives and targets for the player to increase scoring opportunities by performing several shots with flippers before the ball is lost." -> "Each table contains targets for the player to hit with the ball, increasing their score before the ball is lost."
"Ruiner Pinball originated as a project proposed to Atari, as many of the High Voltage Software staff were pinball fans and liked the idea of making one. HVS pitched the project showing a working demo by programmer Scott Corley, who was given free rein to make it by producer Kerry J. Ganofsky, and Atari greenlit the project upon seeing the demo. Initially, the game was intended to have a single table, however, Atari requested to add a second table." -> As long-time fans of pinball games, High Voltage Software proposed the Ruiner pinball concept to Atari, who later requested a second table in the game."
"It garnered generally unfavorable reception from critics; criticism was geared towards the visuals, soundscapes, gameplay, controls, and unrealistic physics." -> "The game earned disapproval from game critics, who took issue with the game's audiovisual elements, controls, and unrealistic physics."
" Early previews prior to launch showed different visuals and music compared to the final version. " -> I'm worried this is original research. Do any of the sources explicitly say this?
"or Windows, the Nintendo Switch, PlayStation 4, and Xbox One" ->
"In 2022, Ruiner Pinball was included in the Atari 50 compilation for Windows, the Nintendo Switch, PlayStation 4, and Xbox One, marking its first re-release" -> "In 2022, Ruiner Pinball was re-released for the first time as part of the Atari 50 compilation, porting the game to Nintendo Switch, PlayStation 4, Xbox One, and Windows PCs."
" Ruiner Pinball received generally unfavorable reception" -> " Ruiner Pinball received generally unfavorable reviews" (receive reception is a little redundant)
In my opinion this is very close to GA now. Let's give the discussion about sources a bit of time, but it won't take much more than this to make this a Good Article. Shooterwalker (talk) 01:51, 11 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Shooterwalker:I'm currently at my day job but i'll tackle these points after i'm done with my shift :) Roberth Martinez (talk) 13:59, 11 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Shooterwalker:Done with the fourth pass. I managed to have some time to get around the fixes you requested. I'm going back to work so, let me know for further comments! — Preceding unsigned comment added by KGRAMR (talk • contribs) 15:09, 11 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm happy to promote this to GA. Thanks for working so hard on this, and thanks for checking in with the Video Games WikiProject about the sourcing issue. If someone has more thoughts about the development section, try to take it into account. But by my analysis, there is no more issue and this meets all the standards of a Good Article. Great job. Shooterwalker (talk) 11:27, 12 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
