Talk:Roza Bal/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Howard Walter 1918

looking back through pre-WWI materials it appears that the first American writer to point out that Ghulam's Yuzasaf was taken from Barlaam and Josaphat was Howard Walter in 1918. Is there anyone earlier than this in English? In ictu oculi (talk) 16:15, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

I will try to locate the earliest source for the Yuz Asaph/Joseph association. I recall that came from Joe Cribb (Cambridge University) numismatic expert of coins from the Kushan era(1st-2nd century era). SuzanneOlsson (talk)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:51, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

The question is whether anyone between 1900 and 1918 pointed out that Ghulam Ahmad's Yuzasaf was in fact Buddha taken from Barlaam and Josaphat not Jesus? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:05, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Allamah Majlisi (1616–1698) Essence of Life (book)

Yesterday I added all the tombofjesus website "historical evidences" into the article as redlinks, and eventually managed to track down their correct spellings and sources and link to them. This involved creatings stubs for several local Kashmiri historians. One who already had a large article was "The Ain-ul-Hayat of Ibn-i-Muhammad Hade Muhammad Imail" which is a mispelling of the Persian Allamah Majlisi (1616–1698). This source is given.

“He went to many cities and preached to those cities. At last he reached the city of Kashmir. He invited its inhabitants to righteousness and resided there till death approached him, and his holy spirit departed from his earthly body and went to rest with God. But before his death he called his companion Ba’bad and made a will…and directed him to construct a tomb for him. He laid himself with his head towards the East and stretched his legs towards the West, and went to the place of eternity.” (Ibn-i-Muhammad Hadi Muhammad Ismaeil, Ain-ul-Hayat, Vol. 2, chapter 2, pp. 177 to 178).

This seems rather specific. Ain-ul-Hayat, Vol. 2, chapter 2, pp. 177 to 178. Where and when was this published? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:15, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

ESSENCE OF LIFE A TRANSLATION OF “AIN-AL HAYAT” BY ALLAMA MOHAMMED BAQIR MAJLISI (1616-1690) TRANSLATED BY SAYED TAHIR BILGRAMI The book can be downloaded PDF at http://shiakitabe-shiabooks.blogspot.com/2011/12/essence-of-life-ain-ul-hayat-by-majlisi.html. Allama Baqir Majlisi is the author of Bihar Al Anwaar which is Allama Majlisi’s monumental work consisting of 25 volumes. Mirat al Uqool fi Shara al Kaafi is a commentary on authentic and weak hadiths. Drali954 (talk) 09:45, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

WP has an article about Allama Baqir Majlisi.... Muhammad Baqir Majlisi (redirect from Allameh Majlesi) Muhammad Baqir Majlesi, (1616–1698 AD) (علامه مجلسی Allameh Majlesi; also Romanized as: Majlesi, Majlessi, Majlisi, Madjlessi) known as ...Drali954 (talk) 09:57, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Dr Ali. I had already identified the Arabic text as Muhammad Baqir Majlisi and already wiki-linked it. The name of the translator above allows us to identify Tehran as the place of translation and link to Essence of Life (book). However the same translation is also cited in Khwaja Nazir Ahmad Jesus in heaven on earth 1952 - Page 362 "He laid himself with his head towards the East and stretched his legs towards the West, and went to the place of Eternity (i.e., died)." which makes one think a pre-1952 translation date. In any case this confirms that the story of Siddhartha Gauthama Buddha's burial in Kashmir - Bilawhar wa Yudhasaf does appear in al-Majlisi. I have two more sources confirming the story is in Majlisi which I will add to the Barlaam and Josaphat article. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:09, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Mir Khvand 1417, 1852

Another Extract: An extract from “Rauzat-us-Safaa”, Nasibain, previously known as Nasibus, and now Urfa in southeast Turkey, is the next location along Jesus(as)’ route for which we have a recorded source. The reference comes from a well-known Persian historical work, the Rauzat-us-Safa written by Mir Muhammad Bin Khawand in 1417AD. Khawand explains that Jesus(as) was known for being a great traveller, something mentioned in other Islamic traditions, yet rarely talked about amongst Muslims. The author goes on to relate Jesus(as) travelling from the Holy Land to Nasibain:

Journeying from his country, he arrived at Nasibain. With him were a few of his disciples whom he sent into the city to preach. In the city, however, there were current wrong and unfounded rumours about Jesus [on whom be peace] and his mother. The governor of the city, therefore, arrested the disciples and then summoned Jesus [on whom be peace]. Jesus [on whom be peace], miraculously healed some persons and exhibited other miracles. The king of the territory of Nasibain, therefore, with all his armies and his people, became a follower of his…

Mir Muhammad Khawand Shah Ibn-i-Muhammad, Rauza-tus-Safa fi Sirat-ul-Ambia wal Muluk wal Khulafa, trans. Gardens of Purity Concerning the Biography of the Prophets, Kings and Caliphs (Bombay, 1852, originally written in 1417), Vol.1, pp.130-135. Drali954 (talk) 10:25, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that is already linked in the article. This falls among the Jesus-Isa in Turkey stories, not the Siddhartha-Yuzasaf in Kashmir stories. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:22, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Except we have a problem... The above section doesn't appear to be in Mir Khvand. Cannot find any trace under "Jesus, Nasibus Nasibian Nisibis Urfa Edessa." of this account. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:09, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

However, the two hypotheses may be related...

I wonder about this bit:

"However, the two hypotheses may be related in that some Ahmadis hold that the Roza Bal structure is not the tomb of Jesus, but a monument to his earlier proposed visit to the location before his crucifixion.[4] Instead of being a tomb for Jesus, Roza Bal may contain the remains of two Muslim holy men who were later buried in the structure.[4]"

Is "However, the two hypotheses may be related" actually from the source or is it WP:SYNTH? The statement about the alternate ahmadi wiew should stay if it´s in the source. Finally "may contain the remains" contadicts earlier statements in the article (that it does)- Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:03, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Gråbergs Gråa Sång - I am an Ahmadi. I never heard of the "alternate" hypothesis . May you quote an Ahmadiyya source that says RB is ONLY a monument ... ?Drali954 (talk) 10:28, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Hello! In the article this is sourced to "Three Testaments: Torah, Gospel, and Quran edited by Brian Arthur Brown 2012, ISBN 1442214929 Rowman & Littlefield page 196", probably not an ahmadi source, but on Wikipedia, that´s a good thing (the best sources are independent of the subject). I would like to know though, if the source actually say this. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:45, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Grabergs Graa Sang, I am delighted to know that you are Ahmaddi and helping with this page. I feel it will improve and be much better off now. Thank you very much. SuzanneOlsson (talk)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:11, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

O_O No, I am not. I think you read that wrong. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:21, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

AHAA I see what you mean. Sorry, but at first glance it did appear you said you were Ahmaddi. I retract my statement. I am deklighted that some Ahmaddis are now helping. They are much better and faster at sourcing than I as I am not adept with Urdu and Arabic and Farsi texts..SuzanneOlsson (talk) 13:54, 18 February 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 13:54, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Asaph (Another Reference Found)

Biblical name Asaph Asaph-Meaning: convener, or collector. This was the name of three biblical men:

A Levite; one of the leaders of David's choir (1 Chr. 6:39). Psalms 50 and 73-83 inclusive are attributed to him.

He is mentioned along with David as skilled in music, and a seer (2 Chr. 29:30).

The “sons of Asaph,” mentioned in 1 Chr. 25:1, 2 Chr. 20:14, and Ezra 2:41, were his descendants.

The “recorder” in the time of Hezekiah (2 Kings 18:18, 37).

The “keeper of the king's forest,” to whom Nehemiah requested from Artaxerxes a “letter” that he might give him timber for the temple at Jerusalem (Neh. 2:8).

Jesus was a Levite priest.According to Matthew's genealogy there were three Davidic Kings in the linage of Jesus Christ who had Levite mothers. They are as follows: (1) Abijah whose mother was Michaiah the daughter of the Levite Uriel - 2 Chronicles 13:1-2, (2) Jatham whose mother was Jerushah the daughter of the Levite Zadok - 2 Chronicles 27:1, and (3) Hezekiah whose mother was Abijah the daughter of the Levite Zechariah - 2 Chronicles 29:1. It was as a Levitical priest that Jesus performed 2,000 years ago, and that was why He went to Jerusalem in the Kingdom of Judah to make the priestly sacrifice.SuzanneOlsson (talk) 14:18, 18 February 2013

@Drali954: I see you cut that text from the article, that´s probably an improvement. I think "Some Ahmadis hold that the Roza Bal structure is not the tomb of Jesus, but a monument to his earlier visit to the location before his crucifixion." could stay though, if it´s reliably sourced of course. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:44, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

I think DrAli's edit Brian Arthur Brown content removed is justified. I had thought that source looked odd and just did a run through of the six references to "Roza Bal" in the book on Google Books, which seem at odds with all other sources. For example "Two other Muslim holy men are also buried there, one a Sufi who was purported to be a descendant of Jesus." - which says 3 bodies at the tomb, and confuses Mir Sayyid Naseeruddin being descended from Jesus rather than Imam Musa Reza. Then I came upon this interview http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-dr-brian-arthur-brown/interfaith-dialogue-i-believe-in-now_b_1864762.html which seems to show that the book is self-published. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:15, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I removed the few lines, for I know full well that NO AHMADI holds that opinion. Although I have not been able to examine that source quoted (as yet), but I think there must be some confusion to the author for not being very knowledgeable about the Ahmadiyya faith.Drali954 (talk) 02:20, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Dr Ali, the Rev Brian Arthur Brown does not appear to be greatly knowledgeable about Christianity or Orthodox Islam either judging from a brief look. There's not much point evaluating further since saying that there are 3 bodies at the Roza Bal effectively invalidates Rev Brown's use as WP:RS for this article. He may know about other subjects, but that isn't our concern here. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:53, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:15, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

You are right sir. I agree. He being a "Rev" :-) Drali954 (talk) 09:18, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Well actually, being a Rev. or a S.J. or a Ghulam or a Khwaja or a Sri doesn't count for or against authors. It's more that the source fails WP:IRS for this context. Would welcome any help with identifying the 3x "Not Mullah Nadiri" sources below. No sign of these sources before The Rozabal Line novel. Do you recognise them? In ictu oculi (talk) 10:43, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban - SuzanneOlsson

Following a recent ANI discussion, SuzanneOlsson (talk · contribs) is now subject to a topic ban on all Roza Bal related article edits, broadly construed. GiantSnowman 11:52, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I fully expected this since I did acquire the domain 'RozaBal'. This now clearly constitutes a COI (conflict of interest) that no one paid any attention to before. I am delighted to see the page has been noticed by new minds and is improving daily.That's all I ever hoped for, a fair and balanced and expanded page about the Roza Bal tomb. Thank you all who have been helping.SuzanneOlsson (talk) 14:38, 19 February 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 14:38, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Three sources that are not Mullah Nadri

The website http://www.arifkhan.co.uk/TOJ/core/historical_sources/docs/tahrik_kashmir.html
We need some work now on the least documented source "Tahrik-i-Kashmir - Mullah Nadri - 1420AD." This source is interesting for 2 reasons: (1) the source doesn't exist. (2) if it did exist it would be 300 years earlier than the 18th Century mentions of Yuzasaf in Srinagar. The first two sources claimed for Mullah Nadri are:
1. Earliest print source The Rozabal Line:

"During this time Hazrat Yuz Asaf having come from Bait-ul Muqaddas [the Holy Land] to this holy valley proclaimed his prophethood. He devoted himself, day and night, in [prayers to] God, and having attained the heights of piety and virtue, he declared himself to be a Messenger [of God] for the people of Kashmir. He invited people [to his religion]. Because the people of the valley had faith in this Prophet, Raja Gopadatta referred the objection of Hindus to him [for decision]. It was because of this Prophet’s orders that Sulaiman, whom Hindus called Sandeman, completed [the repairs of] the dome. [The year was] Fifty and four. Further, on one of the stones of the stairs he [Sulaiman] inscribed: ‘In these times Yuz Asaf proclaimed his prophethood,’ and on the other stone of the stairs he also inscribed that he [Yuz Asaf] was Yusu, Prophet of the Children of Israel."

2. Also cited in The Rozabal Line:

"I have seen in a book of Hindus that this prophet was really Hazrat Isa [Jesus], the Spirit of God, on whom be peace [and salutations] and had also assumed the name of Yuz Asaf. The real knowledge is with God. He spent his life in this [valley]. After his departure [his death] he was laid to rest in Mohalla Anzmarah. It is also said that lights of prophethood used to emanate from the tomb of this Prophet. Raja Gopadatta having ruled for sixty years and two months, [then] died…"

JujU 3. Not cited in the The Rozabal Line, just the website. Where does this come from?

[Other 'Tahrik' The author of this 'Tahrik' is uknown. Image courtesy of Dr Fida Hassnain.] “In early writings, it is mentioned that seventy years after the demise of Alexander the Great, Jesus Christ was born. When he reached the age of thirty years, God raised him to the status of an apostle. At the age of thirty-three years, he proceeded from Palestine towards the Holy Valley. It is mentioned in historical works that Jesus Christ reached Syria in company of his disciples and followers. It is written in authentic works that six days after his crucifixion, Jesus visited several places and met Zacharis and Mary and Disciples and then left for [an] unknown destination.”

What is the origin/date of this Jesus in Syria source?

These 3 sources are not in Tahrik-i-Kashmir of Haidar Malik either. So what are they? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:55, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps the reference to Jesus in Syria comes from a book published in 1929 titled "Letters from Pontius Pilate" " written during his Governorship of Judaea to his friend Seneca in Rome". Eited by W. P. CROZIER (formerly Scholar of Trinity College, Oxford) JONATHAN CAPE Thirty Bedford SquareLondon First Published [1928]Great Britain. Source was this web page: Letters of Pilate The exact page it appears on is here: Jesus in Syria The infgormation you are referencing from the book 'The Roza Bal Line' is directly attributed to myself or to Professor Hassnain, as the author acknowledges in several places. All the best, Sue SuzanneOlsson (talk) 11:39, 19 February 2013

Sue, that that is a novel by W. P. Crozier. It doesn't come from there. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:36, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I just read the Plot summary in the The Rozabal Line article. Now I have a headache. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:58, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

i wish to point out two things: one minor and one major. Almost everywhere on the Google and Wikipedia the book History of Kashmir "Tarikh e Kashmir" has been incorrectly spelled as "Tahrik e Kashmir"'[Tarikh means History , Tahrik means Movement! The next observation is about a small image of some document by Dr Fida Hasnain ... shown in "historical sources" and translated VERY INCORRECTLY. This is a Persian document probably saying nothing about Jesus visiting Kashmir. It has also been dumped under the Mullah Nadri (already extinct book)'. I wish the Source citing by Arif Khan (Ahmadi) had been more critically examined. "In ma'aalim ut tanzeel it is written that when 65 years had passed after the Conquest of Babylon by Alexander , Jesus was born. And when his blessed age had reached 30 years, he was appointed as the Messenger of God. And at the age of 33 years, from "Baitul Muqaddas " he rose to the holy land . In the books of history ... past events.... that a time passed Jesus Christ (peace be on him ) along with his companions and righteous friends and disciples entered the land of Uandalas (Spain). ...In many many authentic books it is written that 6 days after his "decision" on the seventh night God the Creator of Heavens and stars sent him to the earth. He met Yahya son of Zakarya , Mary, and some of his disciples. He performed some tasks related to his will... then Jesus ( peace be upon him) went back." SuzanneOlsson (talk) 11:39, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Sue, I'm aware Tarikh is spelled Tarikh, I created the Tarikh-i-Kashmir article and as far as I know en.wp spells the word correctly. I was merely creating a redirect above based on the misspelling used in the webpage. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:36, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Understood ictu oculi. I visited the page you created. Is there anywhere on Wiki pages information from or about the Rajatarangini can be included? SuzanneOlsson (talk) 14:40, 19 February 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 14:40, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I posted a comment above (I wish to point out... went back)... in response to your Question: JujU 3. Not cited in the The Rozabal Line, just the website. Where does this come from? But Now I see it is posted/signed with Suzane Olson name ? Is there a bug/error? Drali954 (talk) 03:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi DrAli. No, I thought that too but "JujU 3" appears to have been a truncated ghost signature for a post by Suzanne. I repaired it as best I could adding correct Suzanne signature. No content has been lost. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:29, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

"Two (?) Muslim men buried in Roza Bal?"

I wonder who made that claim in the first line of the Roza Bal article? This is clearly in error. No one in history (that I'm aware of) ever claimed two men in Roza Bal were both Muslims. That negates all the evidence to the contrary, such as the age pf the tomb, the position of the burial and the crosses carved in the location that all predate Islam there. Would someone please be so kind as to edit and correct that first line? I hope that it is not another deliberate obfuscation. Thank You. SuzanneOlsson (talk) 02:50, 20 February 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 02:50, 20 February 2013 (UTC) "the graves of two Muslim holy men" ???

I have certain questions:

1) which source says the Roza Bal has graves of two Muslim holy men?

2) Those who say "Yuz Asaf" they take it for Issa / Jesus and NOT Muslim holy man.

3) Those who can NOT accept Jesus can be under the earth, say It is the Myth of Buddha, (Pre Islamic).

4) Ahmadiyya people say it is the grave which has a Muslim Saint and an Israelite Jewish Prophet, (Laid in the grave East/West (Muslims are buried in this zone North/South.

5) So far is this a correct statement... whether by "WP-Source" or "WP-Truth"? Drali954 (talk) 05:34, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi DrAli

(1) Mohammad Azam Didamari and all Kashmiri sources 1700-1902. Also BBC interview of local sunnis states this.

(2) I cannot see the point of this question. All pre-Islamic figures in muslim tradition, Idris, Ibrahim, Musa, Daud, Isa, Yuzasaf are all identified as muslim holy men by default.

(3) Yes, all reliable academic sources recognise that Ibn Babuya's Yuzasaf originates in Buddha. Those sources are given in article. There is no identification of Yuzasaf with Isa prior to Ghulam Ahmad- Ibn Babuyah discusses "Isa" and "Yuzasaf" as two separate people.

(4) Yes Ahmadiyya say this. But no source identified Yuzasaf as Isa before Ghulam Ahmad. The first is 1902, after Ghulam Ahmad.

(5) By WP:RS. Also no source appears to contain the information that Yuzasaf is buried east-west. In fact the source seems to be the Ahmadi Review of Religions 1983. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:59, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Dr Ali, Can you please help in identifying the 3 sources which are not Mullah Nadri above? And also identify the source attributed to Mir Khvand but which is not in Mir Khvand? In ictu oculi (talk) 09:59, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Iio, I have a knee-jerk reaction against Wikipedia calling anybody "holy". Should we just say "men" in the lead? I´ve tried to come up an good alternative to "muslim holy men", but failed. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:09, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Gråbergs Gråa Sång, yes I have the same reaction, unfortunately wali and saint mean the same thing. It's a shame that Lonely Planet and BBC are the only two "third party" sources we have here - what do they use? In ictu oculi (talk) 16:24, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I think to substantiate most of the Sources about Roza Bal and the query that Jesus is buried in Kashmir one needs to enlarge his inquiry to Questions like: 1) Did Jesus survive Crucifixion (if he was crucified at all)? Yes/No 2) Did he migrate to other lands if he escaped death on the cross? Yes/No 3) Do we find evidence of large Jewish populations in areas under question? Yes/No 4) Did Jesus have an ordained mission (as per scriptures NT and Quran )to reach all Children of Israel? Yes/No 5) If the above could be positively settled, ONLY then the relevant sources shall become worthy of consideration. (Dr Ali)Drali1954 (talk) 16:41, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

DrAli, that is outside the scope of the Roza Bal article. This article is about a grave in Srinagar. We have 4 sources which cannot be identified. 3x Mullah Nadri, 1x Mir Khvand. That's the main thing missing.

Additionally it would be nice to have the name of the article title in युझअसफ, یوذسف format. How do you spell Roza Bal in Kashmiri. Roza I can see is tomb, what is Bal meant to be? Not hair as in Hazratbal, so what? 18:15, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Bhavishya Purana

Among the sources that identify Jesus as Issa is the Bhavishaya Purana (written 1st-2nd century). The description that is taken to be of Jesus is found in verses 17-32 in the 19th chapter of the Chaturyuga Khanda Dvitiyadhyayah of the Bhavishya Purana.For example, Text 23 ko bharam iti tam praaha su hovacha mudanvitah iishaa purtagm maam viddhi kumaarigarbha sambhavam The king asked, ‘Who are you sir?’ ‘You should know that I am Isha (Issa) Putra, the Son of God’, he replied, and ‘am born of a virgin.’ Source (among many available on the Internet) Bhavishaya Purana [User:SuzanneOlsson|SuzanneOlsson]] (talk) 10:45, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Cool, that would predate the New Testament, possibly. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:09, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Suzanne. Thank you but could you please read the Bhavishya Purana article on Wikipedia: you will see that it is 18th Century, and includes reference to Queen Victoria's Calcutta. Right now the 4 sources we can't identify are the 3x Mullah Nadri (not Mullah Nadri) and the 1x Mir Khand (not Mir Khand). All other sources are indentified sourced and linked. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:24, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I have access to a research cell with the name of "Qabr e Masih" . I am trying to contact them, and hope to receive valuable info. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drali1954 (talk • contribs) 13:29, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you I suppose with a name like "Grave of Christ" (قبر المسيح) they are an Ahamdi research cell specializing in the Roza Bal. What is the etymology of "Bal"? Not hair. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:29, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I just noticed this from an above query: (5) By WP:RS. No source appears to contain the information that Yuzasaf is buried east-west. In fact the source seems to be the Ahmadi Review of Religions 1983. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:59, 20 February 2013 (UTC) -------The fact that Yuz Asaf is buried east-west comes from the photographs of the underground grave. That area is now blocked off and filled with rubble to prevent photos. The only photos that exist and appear in all the research books clearly indicate this is east-west orientation. The grave added centuries later is clearly not aligned with the first grave, but is in north-south orientation. This is the Islamic custom so no feet point to Mecca to desecrate that holy place. A picture is worth a thousand words.Would someone kindly make the correctiosn on the Roza bal page now? Thank You. Also, in response to this comment: ------I have a knee-jerk reaction against Wikipedia calling anybody "holy". Should we just say "men" in the lead? I´ve tried to come up an good alternative to "muslim holy men", but failed. Gråbergs Gråa Sång---------Why not say "Two men" neither Muslim nor anything else is needed as both identities are questioned. (talk) 14:22, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

@SuzanneOlsson, "Two men" works for me, I´ve made that edit. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:22, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

It should be mentioned that they are both muslim, since sources show both are honoured as muslim holy men since 1600s. Of course there is a certain air of "non-muslimness" about Yuzasaf due to elements of Siddhartha Gautama's original story being preserved in the Yuzasaf legend, but nevertheless Yuzasaf was as muslim as any other muslim holy man. We shouldn't de-muslimize him any more than de-Christianize the Georgian version of Yuzasaf, Yosafat. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:34, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

How about changing "a shrine" in the first sentence to "a muslim (or sunnimuslim) shrine"? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:06, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Good. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:20, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

So edited. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:58, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Can this be certified? Irenaeus in 'Against Heresies"

"The second century Church Father Irenaeus wrote a celebrated book called Against Heresies, which was crucial in establishing church orthodoxy. In this book he claimed Jesus lived to be an old man, and remained in "Asia" with his disciple John, and others, up to the times of the Emperor Trajan, before finally dying. Trajan's reign began in 98 A.D., at which time Jesus would have been just over one hundred years old" http://www.markmason.net/ch4ex2.htm (Dr Muhammad Ali) Drali1954 (talk) 16:52, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Well DrAli, what do you think. Do you think it is likely that a major early Christian writer such as Irenaeus wrote that Jesus lived to be 100 and that nobody in the world - including Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and Khwaja Nazir Ahmad had noticed this until it was discovered by an Australian Anglican web-blogger in 2009? I can answer the question, I know exactly what piece of text is the source of this. But ask yourself first Is this the man who discovered an argument Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and Khwaja Nazir Ahmad failed to discover? In ictu oculi (talk) 17:14, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Here's the section of Irenaeus which Mason misread. Anyway, can we get back to Roza Bal? We have 4 sources with no identification. 3x Mulla Nadri not in Mulla Nadri, and 1x Mir Khvand not in Mir Khvand. We need to focus on plugging holes in the article. Many thanks. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:19, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. In fact as it "fit" into what I believe about Jesus, that he lived a long life and that also in Asia... So I thought may be there is some reference in the writings of the early fathers. As the Church had a paradigm entirely at variance with what the actual state of affairs is... And Mirza Ghulam Ahmad could not read/write English or European tongues, neither were the foreign sources so freely available 130 years ago in India...thanks to Wikipedia and Google and Archive.org TODAY !

I am on the SOURCE FINDING task and will soon come up with the results... checking for Mullah Nadhiri and Mir Khawand references and quotes ... in a while. Drali1954 (talk) 04:20, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome. As it happens it was not just this Australian Anglican who misread Irenaeus. When you asked yesterday I had this "inkling" I had heard it before somewhere. I just did a Google Book search on Irenaeus + "Jesus lived to be" and found 75 hits, all of them tracing back to 1 misreading by the famous anti-religious bigot Charles Bradlaugh who had misunderstood a comment of Tischendorf on Irenaeus and either failed to check it or didn't have the tools to check it (not sure on the timing - Philip Schaff's English translation of Irenaeus should have come out in the 1870s at the same time Bradlaugh wrote misquoting Irenaeus). Bradlaugh may at least have had an excuse - he had no access to the sources. But that can't be said for the 74 authors on Google Books who repeated something they'd heard as a "fact" without checking the online version of the text they were citing. 74 self-published authors who didn't check sources. 74 authors who were simply repeating what they wanted to hear but didn't have the tools or expertise to understand what they were writing about. This is another reason why en.wp has to be tight on WP:IRS in esoteric/comparative religion articles. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:50, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

I checked the links that you provided ictu oculi, and shocked to find I too am guilty. My own book appeared on the list of books that quoted Iranaeus. I have begun editing and correcting immediately. OUT IRANAEUS, OUT! Thank you! SuzanneOlsson (talk)

No problem Suzanne. You might want to check for the 3x Mulla Nadri not in Mulla Nadri, and 1x Mir Khvand not in Mir Khvand as well while we wait DrAli's results. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:11, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Reference Rauzat-us-Safa written by Mir Muhammad Bin Khawand (1417 AD)

The Original Persian book is present at the Khilafat Library at Rabwah, Pakistan (Central Head Quarters of The Ahmadiyya Jama’at Pakistan), bearing the name the Rauza-tus-Safa by Mir Muhammad bin Khawand.. It has a print date 1271 (Hijri). It has a chapter which describes the predicaments, journeys and migration of Jesus Christ, …it mentions his traveling to Nasibain etc. I have made the Camera images of the relevant pages 130-135, title of the book and the page carrying the print line. I can email them to anyone desirous. It is in Persian. The references has also been quoted by Ahmad in his book (Jesus in India) as follows:… “Jesus was named the Messiah because he was a great traveler…. Journeying from his country, he arrived at Nasibain, which lay at a distance of several hundred koses from his home. He was accompanied by a few of his disciples whom he sent into the city to preach. In the city, however, false and unfounded rumours were current about Jesus and his mother. The governor of the city, therefore, arrested the disciples and summoned Jesus. Jesus miraculously healed some patients and showed some other miracles. As a result, the king of th182.181.192.240 (talk) 13:08, 22 February 2013 (UTC)e territory of Nasibain, with all his armies and his people, became his follower. The incident about the 'coming down of food' mentioned in the Holy Quran took place during his travels. (pp:130 -135) [Mir Muhammad Khawand Shah Ibn-i-Muhammad, Rauza-tus-Safa fi Sirat-ul-Ambia wal Muluk wal Khulafa, trans. Gardens of Purity Concerning the Biography of the Prophets, Kings and Caliphs (Bombay, 1852, originally written in 1417), Vol.1, pp.130-135.] Search for the TRIKH E Kashmir by Mullah Nadri continues…will tell you when done. Drali1954 (talk) 12:17, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, as you say that is not a new translation of the Farsi (1852) but the English translation (1978) of Mirza Ahmad's Urdu translation (1899).

The problem remains is that this 1852 Bombay Persian printing - which was the source of Ahmad's Urdu above - still contains content that is not in the 1843 Paris Persian edition? With so many different manuscripts of the Garden of Purity, it's important to identify then which manuscript the Bombay 1852 printing was taken from. Why does this 1852 Bombay Persian edition contain content that the Paris Persian edition of 1843, and other manuscripts - evidently the Vienna, Paris and London manuscripts - don't have? Has the Bombay 1852 Persian printing brought in other material that is not really by Mirchond?

Anyway, there's no immediate need to upload p130-135, could you do three favours:

(1) Simply transcribe the 8-word sentence "Journeying from his country, he arrived at Nasibain" using Arabic/Urdu/Farsi keyboard here on this Talk Page. Please. In Farsi script not ABC.

(2) Also, could you check whether the name of the king Abgar appears in the 1852 printing. In the Christian version of the legend, 1500 years earlier, it is a disciple Addai who converts the king, Jesus only corresponds by letter.

(3) Could you verify whether there is any mention of the crucifixion in the 1852 Persian text?

Many thanks In ictu oculi (talk) 01:32, 22 February 2013 (UTC)In ictu oculi (talk) 02:50, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

You are right In Ictu Oculi, I am not aware of the 1843 Print at Paris (But some one can get an image of that as well). The two editions may possibly differ (as you think) because there used to be hand-written manuscripts and their 'copies' which people did and spread...Now which again which one was nearest to the FIRST MS? All old books may have this issue. Certain internal evidences may also help... like Muslims generally believed (like the Christians) that Jesus was risen to the Heaven (Live)... I shall try to get the things that you suggest. Even if the French and Bombay Editions differ, they must differ in minor variations and NOT the insertion of whole chapters, (like here is a Chapter about "ahwaal e Isa = the narration/story of Isa ). This seems possible that the book I examined, is the "SAME COPY" from which Ahmad referred in his book "Masih Hindostan Men", because this is the same Library of Qadian India, which was owned by him. (Later shifted to Pakistan after the partition of India 1947). When I complete the requirements, will come back.Drali1954 (talk) 03:33, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Well with all ancient documents there are (i) differing manuscripts, (ii) editions (iii) translations. In this case the standard academic edition of the Garden of Purity is now the Tehran, 1959 edition. The story appears to be a version of the Abgar legend, so it is very strange that no one noticed the existence of the Abgar legend in the Bombay lithograph. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:10, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

This is a Urdu/Farsi keyboard... page 132 has a bold heading: I quote "ذکر رفتن عیسئ صلو اللہ علیہ بنا حیہ نصیبین “Narrative of Jesus (Peace be on him) journeying to the place called ‘Nasibain’. (Mir Muhammad Khawand Shah Ibn-i-Muhammad, Rauza-tus-Safa fi Sirat-ul-Ambia wal Muluk wal Khulafa, trans. Gardens of Purity Concerning the Biography of the Prophets, Kings and Caliphs (Bombay, 1852, originally written in 1417, Vol.1, pp.132)

The other 2 enquiries, I shall try to clarify. (Muhammad Ali) Drali1954 (talk) 09:38, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I will add that in the Garden of Purity article under Bombay 1852. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:08, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

The Britannica says "Rowzat oṣ-ṣafāʾ (Eng. trans. begun as History of the Early Kings of Persia, 1832; continued as The Rauzat-us-Safa; or, Garden of Purity, 1891–94" ... my question is CAN WE HAVE RECOURSE to the Eng Translation mention by Britannica? Drali1954 (talk) 09:46, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Sure. The text in Edward Rehatsek's translation of the Garden of Purity mentioned in Britannica is online here and reads as follows:

Historians have reported that in the time of Soda — on whom blessing — there was a king in the country of Nassibin who was very arrogant and tyrannical. Issa having been sent on a mission to him, started towards Nassibin. When he arrived in the vicinity, he halted and said to his apostles : ' Which of you will enter the city and say : I'sa, who is a servant of Allah, His messenger and His word, is coming to you.' One of them, whose name was Ya'qub, exclaimed : 'I will go, O spirit of Allah.' The Lord I'sa said: 'Go, although although thou art the first who wilt separate thyself from me."

This is still based on the Abgar legend but seems substantially different from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's version. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:08, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Looking at it again, it looks less different than I recall. It looks also as if the 1852 Bombay version is a lithograph of the same version Rehatsek translated from. Except that Rehatsek has translated the entire text, wheras Ghulam Ahmad has paraphrased it. Also of course Mir Khvand places the visit to Nasibain/Edessa and conversion of Abgar prior to Jesus' death and has Jesus ascending at 33 years old. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:38, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I am so glad, the mentioning of journey by Jesus and his companions to Nassibain (as reported in Rozatussafa) has finally been "found" and source accepted. This discussion was only to ascertain the 'mention of this journey' NOT that I personally accept it as any historical fact. Such stories are hardly above the levels of myths (particularly religious stories). I thank you in ictu oculi. be well. Dr Muhammad Ali 21:19, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Dr Ali, thank you. I have also amended article Garden of Purity. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:02, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Unrelated request

I want to create and place an Article with the name "Unguentum Apostolorum" , can somebody help me ? Dr Muhammad Ali — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drali1954 (talk • contribs) 06:03, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I know nothing about pharmacy, but don't mind helping you with formatting such an article. I assume you mean the Dodecapharmacum invented by Avicenna, including turpentine, wax, gum ammoniac, and so on? If this is what you mean I can create a stub in 4 minutes for you to fill in further. Does ur.wp or ar.wp have an article already? In ictu oculi (talk) 14:07, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

what is the etymology of the word "BAL" in Roza Bal?

Our worthy friend "in the blink of an eye" has asked a very interesting question. Bal in Hindi and Urdu and other local tongues means a small Child. But it carries certain subtle meanings. Like a small Child is a Symbol of innocence, purity and piety ... a kind of immaculate "holiness" ... (think if the Madonna and her Child !)... In short the word has been used as "holy" (holy shrine )' Dr Ali

Dr. Ali, I thought Bal meant a place? Such as Hazrat Bal in Srinagar. Also,Gotras of Jatts Bal is a Sikh surname found in Majha region of Punjab.It is also derived from a Sanskrit word BALA meaning strength. It is a Jatt tribe.So I think the word has different meanings in different languages and cultures. Each time it is used, one must understand background of the discussion to determine intended meaning. SuzanneOlsson (talk)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk)

The use of the phrase "BAL" as a surname is not at variance with the Etymological description I have cited. There is brief and incomplete discussion of the phrase "BAL" on Wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bal Drali1954 (talk) 18:57, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Dr.Ali- Good one. Thank you! SuzanneOlsson (talk) 23:08, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, but unfortunately we need a source. Parvéz Dewân suggests that Bal means lake or place.

Parvéz Dewân's Jammû, Kashmîr, and Ladâkh: Kashmîr 2004 Page 175 "Manas means 'mountain' and 'bal' means 'lake' (or even 'place'). Thus, the lake's name means 'the mountain lake'. Bakaya says that the word has been derived from the Sanskrit 'Mdnassasarovaras' or ' Mansarover' '. Andrew Wilson wrote in ..." Page 461 has "This has led to many non-Kashmiri writers (Indian as well as foreign) to assume that Hazratbal means "the prophet's hair". A better translation of the name of this famous shrine would be "the prophet's lake". That 'bal' does not refer to hair is "

Suzanne, how many metres is the Rauza Bal from the lake? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:03, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Suzane for the deep interest. You seem correct. But there could be a 'holy lake' a 'holy mountain' a 'holy place'...'Even if it come to denote a Place/Person the original meaning remains valid. Wallaho A'alam.Drali1954 (talk) 03:41, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

There are other places in Srinagar that end in 'Bal' to mean 'place of' such as Mundibal, Sudarbal, Gagribal, and Chatabal.Outside Srinagar city 'bal' appears again to mean 'place of' as in Ganderbal. I am unsure distance from Roza Bal to the Lake. When I lived there, some roads are/were permanently blocked off by the Army. There was no through traffic and no direct path to the Lake. Roza Bal appears to have been about one city block away from the Lake, but there is no direct access now. SuzanneOlsson (talk)

Then it would seem to be simple "place of the tomb"? DrAli - is the correct spelling in Kashmiri रोज़ा बल or रौज़ा बल (Devanagari), رؤزت بل ? (Can we have some help with the Kashmiri spelling please) Would be nice to have a print source page number ISBN in English or Urdu for the name. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:22, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Alhaj Khwaja Nazir Ahmad has given the meaning of BAAL AS SPRING.The valley of Kashmir is literally a valley full of BAAL/SPRING. Dr Muhammad Ali 03:27, 23 February 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drali1954 (talk • contribs)

Hi DrAli. I cannot find that quote from Khwaja Nazir Ahmad 1952. The nearest is Vivekananda Kendra Christianity in India: a critical study 1979 Page 12 "And we made the son of Mary and his mother a sign : and we lodged them both on a high place, furnished with security and a spring." Which is this secure high place ? Could it not be Kashmir ? Scholars' Views The German scholar says that ..." ...Is this interpretation of the Quran in the 1952 book? In ictu oculi (talk) 04:02, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

This verse (23:52) was interpreted by Ahmad (as) himself in at least 10 of his books. Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has interpreted the verse 23:52 in least about 10 of his books…(Kashti Noah, Nazool Masih, Haqiqat ul Wahi, Al-Huda, Tadh kira tushahadatain,etc. :examples:

[The Quran 23:52 interpreted by Ahmad (as)] "That is: ‘We delivered Jesus and his mother from the hands of the Jews and conveyed them to a region of high mountains which was a place of security and was watered with clear springs.’(23:52). This was Kashmir. And this is why Mary’s tomb is not to be found in Palestine, and the Christians claim that she too disappeared like Jesus…." [Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, Ruhani Khaza’in, vol. 22, pp. 99-104, footnote]

(23:52) "In this verse God Almighty has drawn an accurate picture of Kashmir. The expression Awa in Arabic is used for providing shelter against calamity of misfortune; and before the crucifixion Jesus and his mother underwent no period of hardship as would require shelter. It is thus established that it was only after the incident of the crucifixion that God Almighty led Jesus and his mother to this plateau."[Kashti-e-Nuh, Ruhani Khaza’in, vol. 19, p.17, footnote]Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 17:56, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Baal = Spring . In his famous work "Jesus in Heaven on Earth" page 277 "It is very significant that Baal in the Kashmiri language means a spring. " Dr Muhammad Ali 05:28, 23 February 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drali1954 (talk • contribs)

If Baal is Spring, Kashmir is a Valley of SPRINGS (hundreds of 'bal' ) Quran Says ..... @In Ictu Oculi Your question about translation of the Quran 23:52, "if the interpretation is "post 1952" ? The correct solution to resolve any doubts would be to quote a Translation of the Qur’an which is PRIOR to all these disputes…. So I quote George Sales (died 1736) translation of the Quran, the copy I possess is printed 1882. Titled: [THE QUEAN: COMPRISING SALE'S TRANSLATION AND PRELIMINARY DISCOURSE, BOSTON: HOUGHTON, MIFFLIN AND COMPANY. NEW YORK: 11 EAST SEVENTEENTH STREET. The Riverside Press Cambridge (1882)....... This is verse 52 of Chapter 23 of the Holy Qur’an: It says “(23:52) And we appointed the son of Mary and his mother for a sign : and we prepared an abode for them in an elevated part of the earth, being a place of quiet and security, and watered with running springs. “ (Sale’s Translation) Dr Muhammad Ali Drali1954 (talk 05:54, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

DrAli, sorry mix-up between "translation" and "interpretation." I have no question that the the English "translation" (from Arabic to English) of the Quran 23:52 is accurate (I can see the Arabic), my question was about the "interpretation" (explanation, exegesis) - i.e. I was asking was Nazir Ahmad interpreting the Quran 23:52 to apply to Roza Bal? In ictu oculi (talk) 14:07, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

"Bal also meaning 'springs'...works for me! Good one. Not sure where there is any spring near Roza Bal, could be lost in antiquity...but that definition seems appropriate. SuzanneOlsson (talk) 08:38, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Dr Ali, thanks, that's interesting; in any of those places did Ghulam Mirza Ahmad actually say "Roza Bal means spring" contradicting sources like Parvéz Dewân's Jammû, Kashmîr, and Ladâkh: Kashmîr? In ictu oculi (talk) 00:22, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

AS far as I know, Hadhrat Mirza sahib has not wrote that baal means 'Spring'.(But I will look for it) He always wrote... the shrine in Muhalla Khanyaar, Sri Nagar Kashmir... I think the meaning given by Khwaja Nazir on page.277 of his book may be accepted. He had research in to these issues. For Mirza sahib, the Israelie relics, names, heritage, signs, nomenclature etc. found in Kashmir were more important. Like he wrote Gilgit is Golgotha, Sri means Skull, Nagar means place...SriNagar is "Place of the Skull" (as Mark 15:22 and John 19:20)etc. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 03:58, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I have added various sources to the lead saying "bal means place". Also (Kashmiri: रोज़ाबल or रौज़ाबल (Devanagari), Urdu: رؤزت بل) in lead. I'm a bit concerned about the lack of precision on the Kashmiri, but it seems like the best way forward to prompt a more precise source. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:01, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Please correct that Urdu spelling of Roza. it is written as روضة . In fact it is the same word as in Rauza tu suffa (Garden of Purity). It is out of love and respect that shrines and graves of holy people among Muslims are called not a Grave of such and such but a روضة of such ... (as if their grave was a garden). Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 04:12, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Corrected to روضة بل got it. Thanks. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:46, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I searched the BAAL in Khwaja Nazir Ahmad's book , he has extensive and researched/sourced discussion on the term BAAL. I will request brother In Ictu Oculi to just go through the pages where the term "baal" occurs. He said (and he justifies with various lexicological and semantic researches ) that baal is SPRING. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 06:49, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. I now see this is online http://aaiil.org/text/books/others/khwajanazirahmad/jesusinheavenonearth/ch18landpromise.shtml Not quite sure how to deal with adding this. "Nazir Ahmad claims.." perhaps. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:57, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Jesus appeared in the East (Mark New Testament)...

I thought to share with my friends an extract of an old Manuscript of Mark (NT) found in the Mount Athos ...1880 CANON AND TEXT OF THE NEW TESTAMENT BY CASPAR RENE GREGORY EDINBURGH: T. & T. CLARK, 38 GEORGE STREET (1907) A manuscript I found at Mount Athos twenty years ago continues after the yap “And all the things announced to those about Peter briefly, they spread abroad. And after that Jesus also Himself appeared from east, and up to west He sent out by them the sacred and incorrupted (?un) preaching of the eternal salvation. Amen.” (Book downloaded at archive.org)--Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 04:19, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi DrAli, sorry, but I can't see any relevance to the article. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:34, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Relevance: Any ancient SOURCE which speaks of " jesus traveling " outside Jerusalem is relevant . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drali1954 (talk • contribs) 23:11, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Gregory is saying he found a manuscript which, unusually, had both alternative endings to Mark in the same manuscript. It starts with shorter ending of Mark 16 then has the longer ending:

"A manuscript I found at Mount Athos twenty years ago continues after the gar: "And all the things announced to those about Peter briefly, they spread abroad. And after that Jesus also Himself appeared; from east and up to west he sent out by them the sacred and incorrupted preaching of the eternal salvation. Amen. And this also is found after the "For they were afraid," and then follows the Aristion ending." Caspar René Gregory 1907

It is the disciples whom "he sent them out from East to West." not Jesus travelling from East to West.

Παντα δε τα παρηγγελμενα τοις περι τον Πετρον συντομως εξηγγειλαν. μετα δε ταυτα και αυτος ο Ι{ησου}ς εφανη αυτοις, και απο ανατολης και αχρι δυσεως εξαπεστειλεν δι αυτων το ιερον και αφθαρτον κηρυγμα της αιωνιου σωτηριας. αμην.And all that had been commanded them they promptly announced to those around Peter. And after these things J{esu}s himself appeared to them, and from the east as far as the west he sent out through them the sacred and incorruptible proclamation of eternal salvation. Amen.

I see that Aziz Kashmiri has cited this in his book Christ In Kashmir, Aziz Kashmiri, 1973, Roshni Publications, Srinigar, India. and misread it (admittedly Gregory's English is a little stilted). Do you know anything about Aziz Kashmiri? In ictu oculi (talk) 05:49, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Aziz Kashmiri lived in Kashmir and researched the tomb. he was a Sunni Muslim. He started out expecting to disprove the Ahmaddi claims,but after years of research and validation of the relics,he became a believer that the tomb is that of Jesus. He passed away several years ago at an advanced age.I am not sure what his life career was..I do know he contributed often to local newspapers and was highly respected in Kashmir. I had an edition of his book for years that I just sent to another researcher-His book is very valuable to this research because he mentioned some history that was not recorded anywhere else- such as a grave for a son of King David in Kashmir..I think his book is now out of print, but would be useful to post anyway as a resource. SuzanneOlsson (talk) 05:58, 25 February 2013

Sue, see Aziz Kashmiri footnote pdf, he joined the movement when he was 13 years old and was and is a dedicated Ahmaddiya all his adult life. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:50, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I guess the text says something more than "ONLY the Disciples". the phrase is: "they spread abroad. And after that JESUS ALSO HIMSELF appeared from east, and up to west".If ONLY the disciples, why Mark may say and JESUS ALSO HIMSELF ? Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 06:02, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

DrAli, regret to say but sorry that is not possible, the verb is εξαπεστειλεν exapesteilen "he sent" - "he sent" is totally different from "he went". There is not even a tiny possibility that Caspar René Gregory could have misread this text. This is a mistake in Aziz Kashmir's book. And a mistake Fida Hassnain has copied I see. Apart from that no other source has ever misread Gregory. I can see how it happened, Gregory's English is odd From east to west he sent them, but Gregory was following Greek word order. This is another example similar to that Irenaeus one above where a lack of basic familiarity with the texts (and this Greek is a very very well known text) causes basic mistakes. Sorry, though thanks for indicating that Aziz Kashmir had used this, otherwise would not have known, so thanks for raising it, interesting. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:50, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I AGREE.Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 07:17, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Dear ictu oculi- I am stunned! I had no idea that Aziz Kashmiri was Ahmaddi..In my years in the region, and numerous discussions with others, no one ever mentioned that he was Ahmaddi! I hoped to visit with him directly, but he was already old and infirm when I was there, and I didn't want to intrude. I love his book, especially because he DID get some of those obscure historical facts in print. There are several people now on the trail of things he mentioned, such as the forgotten grave of children-grandchildren (?) of King David. I did write about that in my book as well, but the original research was his.I am forever grateful to him. SuzanneOlsson (talk) 17:11, 25 February 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 17:11, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Arabic jpegs

In ictu oculi had asked me to take a look at some Arabic jpegs which were available in this article. Have they been removed? MezzoMezzo (talk) 12:04, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Mezzo. Some are actually Persian, the ref links to an Ahmaddiya website http://www.arifkhan.co.uk/TOJ/core/historical_sources/index.html - the supposedly Mullah Nadri Tarikh i Kashmir ones are missing, which is the most problematic as there's no print evidence at all. Otherwise, is the definition on the jpgs good enough to verify which call Buddha "Budasaf" and which "Yudasaf" and "Yuzasaf"? Many thanks In ictu oculi (talk) 13:39, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately I use Wikipedia at the office during my free time, so the link above is to a site which is blocked on our server. Is there another way to link the images directly or from another source? MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:40, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

No sorry I don't know of one. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:49, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

2006 version of the Roza Bal page

Someone just sent me this link- it is an older version of the Roza Bal page: Wiki Roza Bal 2006

SuzanneOlsson (talk) 11:26, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

RELICS (AGAIN)

In reading the Roza Bal article, under notes# 35, a quote appears from Gregorianum, Page 258, Pontificia università gregoriana (Rome) "The whole story of how this legend was simply created (without a shred of evidence in its support), spread widely among a gullible public and still finds such latter-day exponents as Holger Kersten is splendidly told by Günt[h]er Grönbold." This quote (from the Vatican?) or summation is completely misleading. There have been notable artifacts found inside the tomb that associate it with Jesus, such as the crucifixion wounded feet and the Rod. If the relics and the family in Kashmir (Bashrat Shaheen) are not included in the article, then of course one would surmise there was/is not "a shred of evidence." Otherwise the article appears as slanted and biased, intentionally leaving out critical information. SuzanneOlsson (talk) 09:55, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

As I see it (you mean note 34, right? Maybe it changed between our postings), that is not misleading, unless you mean that somebody here made that quote up. The source did say that, and it´s only use in the article is to support that Grönbold critiqued Kersten. Per the discussion at "RELICS RELEVANCE" above, if there are no WP:RS that mention these relics, we don´t either. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:41, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Please help me understand what defines "reliable sources"..when every book every written about Roza Bal tomb includes the relics, and photos of the relics. The Director of Historical Archives in Kashmir examined the historical documents supporting the antiquity of the relics, and so stated in published books. No one at any time has ever raised the idea these might be fakes or frauds or recent creations by local shop keepers, except one or two wiki editors here taking wild guesses to support their POV (in support of church doctrine). ..Are the authors and research investigators and the Government of India professional agents not "reliable sources? SuzanneOlsson (talk) 23:02, 1 March 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 23:02, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

From my understanding, a reliable source depends on the source itself, not what it's claiming. What the user above is quoting comes from a publication of Pontifical Gregorian University, if I am not mistaken (I could be, double check that). Might I suggest that instead of choosing one source over the other, all reliable sources are included and the scholarly difference of opinion is made clear? For example, "X says this, Y makes a counter claim." Both clauses of the sentence would need reliable sources. Is that an acceptable solution? MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:49, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

That is valid in many cases, but the article says in reference to note 34:

"Kersten's ideas were among various expositions of the theory critiqued by Günter Grönbold in Jesus in Indien. Das Ende einer Legende (Munich, 1985).[34]"

I really don´t see that there is likely to be a "scholarly difference of opinion" on that particular statement. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:02, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I totally agree with Mezzo Mezzo and Gunter. Graberg, the page gets edited almost daily...even the tiniest of edits..and some things seem to have changed for the better already. ! Thus, the counter claims, including authenticity of the relics, claims made by a representative of the Government of India, someone in a position of authority and experience, should be included. I am referring to Professor Fida Hassnain. By the way, his Wiki page was "edited" to remove his picture (on false claim it violated copyrights- although it was made quite clear that it did not)and most of his C.V. was 'edited' to just a few lines. There was only one reference made to the work of Holger Kersten,containing only one negative opinion...I found this also very misleading. So I fully support both of you in presenting a fair and balanced page. I can not do anything, so I trust and rely on people like yourselves to be fair in building the Roza Bal page..Thank you. You are much appreciated. Best wishes, Sue SuzanneOlsson (talk) 16:59, 2 March 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 16:59, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Suzanne the problem is explained in WP:IRS. What makes Günter Grönbold, Wilhelm Schneemelcher, Norbert Klatt, Per Beskow, Gerald O'Collins, David Marshall Lang etc, etc. qualified sources is that these are recognised scholars and experts in their fields. Holger Kersten is not a qualified scholar or expert on any subject. See WP:IRS for how we decide this. As for GOI, the Government of India has not published any source verifying anything regarding the Roza Bal tomb, and until it is published it is not published. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:54, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

I see . Thank you for explaining. Hassnain published outside the Government-therefore these publications are not part of 'official' Government publications. I thought his position as a Government historical 'official' for 30 years would render him an 'expert'. It is more experience than some of the other 'experts' quoted in the Roza Bal article. This is from Hassnain's page here at Wiki "Before retiring in 1980, he held several posts, such as that of Director of General Records & Archives; Director of Archives, Archaeology, Research & Museums; and State Editor of Gazetteers of India. He became a Lecturer at S.P. College in Srinagar" SuzanneOlsson (talk) 09:09, 6 March 2013

Hi Suzanne, unfortunately not, not according to WP:IRS. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:26, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

________________________________________________________________________

Facts being overlooked.

As I am reading over the greatly improved Roza Bal page, I realize there is still a huge gap in the way the information is being presented. This is why: First, if the relics associated with the tomb are not investigated and included in this article, then readers are left to believe this was all a written and oral invention created around the fifteenth century. Second, regarding the name Yz Asaf. Asaf is a Biblical name that appears in the Bible many times. Yuzasaf (Yuz) means son of. It appears on Kushan era coins for several kings, including Gondopharnes/Gopananda. Joe Cribb of Oxford pointed this out to me regarding several coins he investigated. Even on Facebook, I am friends with several people whose name is Yuzaf/Yusasaph. I doubt very much they would agree with the idea this is a varaition of "Budasaf". There are places along the Old Silk Road-specifically in Pakistan (if any existed in Afghanistan and Iraq, these are long gone due to wars and terrorism and cultural conflicts) - marked to commemorate the journey of Mother Mary. These were her 'resting places' along the way. They lead directly to her 'final' resting place at Murree-Pindi Point. I invested a lot of time and travel trying to locate these and marking them on a map. My map was eventually confiscated by the ISI because they feared it would aid terrorist if it fell into the wrong hands. This was a major loss to me. I had so many valuable notes on those maps and I dont remember where I was when I marked some of these sites. Early churches were often built over these sites which is why they have been preserved in memory and legend. Now I also want to remind you that Pakistan once aired a documentary investigating the grave of Joseph, father of Jesus in the same area. I tried to find out who made that film. They had lost the records....I dont know where they filmed this grave, but it seems to me a vital link in the chain of evidence.. If Jesus' father was buried in the region, this would account for him using the name 'son of Joseph'. If anyone reading this knows people at Pakistan TV- you could start there. I thought of running an ad in Dawn magazine to get further information. That may be another approach. I just wanted to post this info as a reminder to researchers that there is more. You must connect the dots, including these sites, and the relics, et cetera- (talk) 04:39, 10 March 2013 P.S. I did not mean for those letters to appear so large and bold! My apologies. If anyone wants to edit this heading, please do! {Suzanne}

Hi Suzanne, Wikipedia has a WP:ban on connecting the dots. If any of this appears in WP:IRS then it can be entered as it appears in WP:IRS. Out of interest have you ever visited the grave of Yudasaf at Kushinagar? In ictu oculi (talk) 18:45, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi inctu oculi, I understand about Wiki- I am writing information here just for benefit of anyone reading this who may have the freedom to investigate further, and possibly make valuable contributions..I am trying to help. Since my hands are so effectively tied I am trying to help anyone (like yourself).It may help show the way for others. I have not visited Kushinagar. It was the place where the Lord Buddha died. I missed much when I lived in India. :-( Best wishes. SuzanneOlsson (talk)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk)

Interesting!!! the famous book of Ibn Babawayah "Ikmal uddin" now available in English as well. Please see YUZ ASAF entering Kashmir on page 275 of Vol 2 (English)!!! http://www.scribd.com/doc/27461079/Kamal-Al-Deen-wa-Tamam-Al-Ni-mah-Volume-2 and also compare with the Arabic Book now available : http://www.arabicbookshop.net/main/details.asp?id=124-370 The story of YUZ ASAF starts from page 223 of vol 2... YUZ ASAF in KASHMIR !!! Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 21:49, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, that is very helpful. I will add that to the Budasaf article. Of course you do realise that this only shows that the English was translated from an Arabic text which already had the mistake documented by Lang of Kasmir for Kasinara.

However it is also worth mentioning in Roza Bal, because at the moment the article doesn't explain the tradition about the direction of the grave - and this description of the application of the Kashinara deathplace to the Srinagar tomb. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:39, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

@In Ictu Ocul: Can you please tell the difference ? I don't know why is this confusion of BUDASAF and YUZASAF. In fact this appears a spelling mis-read by some one who is not quite familiar with Arabic Alphabets. The Arabic Yu za saf would spell as يو ذا سف . (this is YUZ ASAF) Now I write BUDA SAF as بو دا سف (BUDA SAF). Those of my friends who can not read Arabic will probably fail to identify the difference. Can you see the different spellings ? In the Arabic Text, available with me, I see the word as written YUZ ASAF (very clearly and repeatedly ).Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 06:24, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Dr Ali,

Yes it is written Yuzasaf in the Bombay Edition. Lang (as source in article) already said that the Bombay Edition of Ibn Babawayh has Yuzasaf not Yudasaf, ذ and not د.

Likewise Rasail Ikhwan al-Safa has ذ and not د. Do you consider that Yuzasaf not Yudasaf, ذ and not د, is also Jesus?

Dr Ali, do you think that there are two Yuzasaf, Ibn Babawayh's Yuzasaf and Rasail Ikhwan al-Safa's Yuzasaf?

Tell me, are we certain Waqiat-i-Kashmir of Muhammed Azam Didamari (1747) History of Kashmir, mention of Prince Yuzasaf is ذ and not د ? Is that a third Yuzasaf, or a Yudasaf?

Budasaf-Yudasaf-Iodasaph-Yuzasaph-Josaphat-Iodasaf, these names vary widely. We already have sources in the Budasaf article documenting Ba يا to Ya با as Yudasaf and from د to ذ . In fact there are a total of 12 sources in the Budasaf article commenting on the name variations. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:03, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

As we know ذ and not د means litte, since dots are frequently missed from Arabic consonants by mistake. I have seen similar printing errors even in books published in 2010, let alone 1747.

In any case, the unanimous view of all scholars is that the texts of Ibn Babawayh is talking about Buddha. The Folklore Society (Great Britain) - 1896 Volume 38 - Page 111 has "Another fact of much significance is this, that in the Georgian the proper names approach in their spelling very closely to the old Indian or Buddhist forms : e.g. Georgian Iodasaph is nearer than Josaphat to the Arabic Yudasaph and Budasaph " This was three years before Mirza Ghulam Ahmad published his reading of Ibn Babuwayah's Arabic Yudasaph as being Jesus not Budasaph. So the scholarly community already knew 3 years before Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's claims in Masih Hindustan-mein about Ibn Babawayh and already knew it was referring to Buddha. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:07, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

in our childhood the story we read in ibn Babwayh was very well known and it had been attributed to Sidartha Gothum Budh. He as a young prince left the palace etc etc. So I agree the tale (probably a myth only) relates to Buddha. I do not take it for an historical account. However , the possibility of this myth also being attributed to Jesus who was a later figure of mythological significance, and whose ministry to the Hebrew tribes in this part of the world after surviving at attempt on his life may be entertained. Removing the unnecessary details probably will connect the myths to Roza Bal. Moreover "Buddha" is a descriptive term, the wise or enlightened one. So it is possible when Jesus appeared in India, he was also a Buddha. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 17:00, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

My understanding of a "myth" or "legend" is that it has a tradition. In regard to all three of those statements (1) Hebrew tribes in this part of the world (2) surviving at attempt on his life (3) identification of Isa as Bodhisattva, there is no tradition. These ideas all appear out of the blue in 1899. The only tradition we can speak of is the tradition from 1899-2013. And that tradition is documented in the article. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:27, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Jews in Kashmir

Hi, In Ictu Oculi, your categorical denials are always interesting ! There was a NON-AHMADI President of Israel with the name Itzhak Ben-Zvi, he was also a Pathan (like me), he writes: In his 1957 book The Exiled and the Redeemed, Itzhak Ben-Zvi, second President of Israel, writes that Hebrew migrations into Afghanistan began, "with a sprinkling of exiles from Samaria who had been transplanted there by Shalmaneser, King of Assyria (719 BC)..."The Afghan tribes, among whom the Jews have lived for generations, are Moslems who retain to this day their amazing tradition about their descent from the Ten Tribes. It is an ancient tradition, and one not without some historical plausibility... if the Afghan tribes persistently adhere to the tradition that they were once Hebrews and in course of time embraced Islam, and there is not an alternative tradition also existent among them, they are certainly Jewish." [The Exiled and the Redeemed, 176]

And Itzhak was not an illiterate person, he headed the Institute for the Study of Oriental Jewish Communities in the Middle East, later named the Ben-Zvi Institute (Yad Ben-Zvi) in his honor. The Ben-Zvi Institute occupies Nissim Valero's house. His main field of research was the Jewish communities and sects of Asia and Africa, including the Samaritans and Karaites.

For dozens of other references/sources, mentioning the "Hebrews" being present in this part of the world, please see the Wiki entry, Theory of Pashtun descent from Israelites. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 04:19, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Yitzhak Ben-Zvi was Jewish not Ahmadi. Yes Jews converting to paganism/Islam/Buddhism/Christianity happened. It's the idea of (1) actual Lost tribes of Israel in Kashmir which has no tradition. Admittedly it has more counterparts than (2) and (3). In ictu oculi (talk) 05:08, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Jews in Kasmir, NO TRADTION ?

KASHMIR, region in S. central Asia. The association of Kashmir with Jews was first alluded to by the 11th-century Muslim scholar Al-Bīrūnī in his "India-Book": "In former times the inhabitants of Kashmir used to allow one or two foreigners to enter their country, particularly Jews, but at present they do not allow any Hindus whom they do not know personally to enter, much less other people." In the time of the Moghul emperor Akbar (1556–1605), the question of the association of Jews with Kashmir and the Jewish descent of the Kashmiris was raised by the Jesuit Monserrate, who regarded the old inhabitants of this region as Jews by race and custom in view of their appearance, physique, style of dress, and manner of conducting trade. As early as the 17th century François Bernier, the scholar and traveler, who was in India from 1656 to 1668, was asked by Melchissedec Thevenot (1620–1692), a traveler and publisher, to discover if Jews had long been resident in Kashmir. Bernier reported that Jews had once lived here, but that they had converted to Islam. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0011_0_10803.html Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 05:41, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Okay, but not relevant to this article. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:52, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Mahdi

In the Article Roza Bal, I wonder how an irrelevant criticism, of Ahmad's (as) claim as the Messiah can fit ?(something neither factually nor actually true). It may better be removed: 'J. Gordon Melton states that having assumed the mujaddid (faith renewer) appellation in the 1880s, and having declared himself the Promised Messiah for the Christians, Ghulam Ahmad simply picked up the legend that Jesus had visited India in order to increase his self-identification with Jesus.[24]' Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 06:05, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

J. Gordon Melton's comment is supported by Islamic Law In Africa - Page 357 ed. Sir James Norman Dalrymple Anderson - 1970 "This sect was founded by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Khan, who was born in Qadian in the Panjab in 1839 (circ). ... and in 1891 he announced that he was both the Mahdi (the " rightly-guided one ") whom Muslims expect and the promised Messiah." It is relevant in context. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:12, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I somewhat agree, that long sentence seems partly outside the subject. Perhaps shorten to "J. Gordon Melton states that Ghulam Ahmad picked up the legend that Jesus had visited India in order to increase his self-identification with Jesus."? If supported by source, "increase his self-identification with Jesus" could change to "support his religous teachings" or something like that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:04, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

@ In Ictu Oculi, , I have no objection to Gorgon believing Ahmad a false Messiah, or the so called “Islamic” law , calling him a liar , I asked How is this comment relevant to the Roza Bal article ? Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was true or false in his claims to be the Mahdi and Messiah has other bases, not the question of Roza Bal containg the remains of Jesus Christ. Please comment on it, particularly when you wrote the "Kashmirs being Jewish in Origin" was not relevant to this article !.Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 07:41, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

As far as I can judge the reason Melton sees fit to mention it is that he is inferring a conflict of interest between declaring oneself the Messiah and being an impartial historian regarding the claims of a previous Messiah. The comparison being that Howard Walter, J T Addison, David Lang, Gunter Gronbold, Norbert Klatt, Per Beskow, Wilhelm Schneemelcher and Melton himself do not have such a conflict of interest. In any case Melton is only one of dozens of sources saying similar. However I do have one problem with ref [24] J. Gordon Melton, Martin Baumann Religions of the World, Second Edition 2010 Page 55 "To increase his identification with Jesus, Ahmad picked up and amplified an Indian legend that Jesus had not died on the cross in Palestine but had survived his crucifixion, after which he traveled to Kashmir in northern India." - this appears to me to be incorrect. I am not aware of any such Indian legend. In fact Beskow says the exact opposite, that there was none. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:26, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Rama Tirtha d.1906

ROZA BAL another Source: https://ia600409.us.archive.org/14/items/InWoodsOfGodRealization-SwamiRamaTirtha-Volume1/InWoodsOfGodRealization-SwamiRamaTirtha-Volume1.pdf Jesus buried in Kashmir, page 410 You know Christ did not die when he was crucified. This is a fact which may be proved. He was in a state called Samadhi, a state where all life-functions stop, where the pulse beats not, where the blood apparently leaves the veins, where all signs of life are no more, when the body is, as it were, crucified. Christ threw himself into that state for three days and like a yogi came to life again and made his escape and came back to live in Kashmir. Rama had been there and had found many signs of Christ having lived there. Up to that time there was no Christian sect in Kashmir. There are many places called by his name, places where Christians never came, many cities called by the same names as the cities of Jerusalem through which Christ passed. There is a grave there of 2,000 years standing. It is held very sacred and called the grave of Esah which is the name of Christ in Hindustani language,... (page 410, In the Woods of God,Vol 1) Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 08:09, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Interesting, thanks, but Ghulam Ahmad's 1899 claim was already published in a tourist guidebook in 1902, Rama Tirtha is after the event. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:26, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

It is almost impossible that the Hindu Swami would accept and take for truth, a "de novo Finding " of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and enter that into his book. The truth seems that the Swami has taken the existing traditions in vogue since very long about the Grave of Jesus /Eisa in the Roza Bal. Is there a proof that the Swami took it from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad ?Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 04:28, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

See biography of Rama Tirtha, he used multiple Hindu, Christian and Islamic sources. Ghulam Ahmad's idea was published in Tahrik-i-kabir-Kashmir, of Haji Mohiuddin 1902, so Ghulam Ahmad's claim was widely known before Rama Tirtha died and consistent with the "Vedantic brain and the Islamic body" ideal of the time. Consequently mentioning a source after Haji Mohiuddin 1902 seems to be not very notable. Unless there's a specific notability? In ictu oculi (talk) 05:43, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Plausible. Jazakallah. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 06:23, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

All Printing MISTAKES,,, Jesus/Buddha/Yuz asaf/Budhasaf/ etc.

Jesus or Buddha, Yuz Asaf or Budasaf ? All a Printing mistake! The "Modern Scholars" in their last attempt to save Jesus from death, declare that ALL THOSE HISTORICAL EVIDENCES which say Yuz Asaf (Jesus) died in Kashmir are MIS-PRINTS actually 'BuddhAsaf" (Buddha) is intended and 'Kashmir' is a MIS-PRINT for KUSHINAGAR" where Buddha died !!!

I remembers a Joke about a similar printing MISTAKE A Pope dies and enters heaven, he makes a wish to read the Original ancient text of the Holy Book, He is taken to the Archives…. All of a sudden there is a scream in the library. The angels come running to him, only to find the Pope huddled in a chair, crying to himself, and muttering, "An 'R'! They left out the 'R'”. God takes him aside, offering comfort and asks him what the problem is. After collecting his wits, the Pope sobs again, "It's the letter 'R'... the word was supposed to be CELEBRATE."Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 14:52, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Don't quit your day job.  :) Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 12:10, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

-) be well Cogito ergo sum (talk) 15:00, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Amusing, though have heard it before.

As regards printing errors, that's minor. The main issue is that 100% of academic sources all agree, for once, unusual for such an issue to be so straightforward in a religion article. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:30, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Ref Sources 16,17,18 need be more critically evaluated.Seegmund (talk) 15:07, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Seegmund, welcome to Wikipedia. Those sources are reliable. See WP:IRS for what qualifies as reliable sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:30, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Relics (Again)

Sometimes we try so hard to impose our own views that we shoot selves in foot- This is taken from the current Roza Bal article: "Gerald O'Collins states that no historical evidence has been provided to support Ghulam Ahmad's theory that Jesus died in India." Again, I remind you that there is historical evidence in the form of relics associated with the tomb. By failing to mention these, leaves misleading ideas about the tomb. It's like discussing the Shroud of Turin without an actual Shroud. Perhaps someone should actually take the time to list the relics and their historical backgrounds . Also to be noted, the repeated failure to identify Yuz Asaf as 'son of Joseph' ..this emphasis on associating Yuza Asaf with Buddha is discouraging- it is based on European connotations, not on the traditional local uses of the words. Suzanne Olsson 66.177.27.120 (talk) 11:38, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

And again, what Reliable Sources can be used to write something about these relics? Yuz Asaf as 'son of Joseph' is mentioned in Jesus in Ahmadiyya Islam (as a flat out fact, no less), that´s probably where it belongs. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:28, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Relics and other findings to settle the identity of the Roza Bal...

Even among the Muslims, the Sunnis and Shiiahs all believe Jesus to be ALIVE and in the Heavens, so do believe the Christians. We may call it a naïve belief. But Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Did not invent it and has quoted a Legend upon which he based his theory. The Legend was that it was the Grave of a Prophet who came here. Albeit totally against the belief of the Muslims in that area !

a) Buddha had never been believed to be a Prophet in the Judo-Christian parlour. (Neither do the Buddhists believe him to be so).

b) The Buddhists have never shown any associations, in traditions or legends to this Roza Bal?

c) No mention of any Buddhists remnants or holy relics at this site, or visiting Sri Nagar Kashmir.

d) One “spelling mistake” made Budhasaf = Yuzasaf, another spelling mistake made “Kushinagar=Kashmir”, looks rather too much, particularly, a research by those who fancy Jesus is Alive and sitting on the Right hand …

e) To settle the actual identity of the Roza Bal, we must take into consideration other Corroborative evidences.

f) E.g. if it is the Grave of a Jewish Prophet, then there must be evidence of Jewish people in the area.

g) The very large number of words having a Hebrew root, in the whole region, the very word Gilgit is said to be Golgota, SRI = skul, and NAGAR =is place ; so Place of the Skull , (as we see in NT ), a very long list in fact…

Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 14:05, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

I´m sorry but this seems largely off topic to me in this particular thread (also this article). Views on Jesus is not interesting here. The article don´t claim Ghulam Ahmad invented anything. The topic of this discussion is the relics that are/were according some source placed in the tomb. I can only repeat that if there are no WP:RS we can base something on, Gerald O'Collins statement will stand unchallenged. I´ve earlier suggested it might be possible to start small, is it possible to suggest and reliably source a sentence about the relics starting "Hassnain also claims..." after the bit about the rock carving? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:34, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

hi Grabergs, if Gerald O' Collins negative statement is left unchallenged, it will remain unfair. in fact the ONLY issue about this grave/tomb is to prove/disprove that it is or is not the grave of JC. What else is the significance of this article ? Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 15:04, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Dr Ali, Suzanne

• the significance of this article is to represent WP:RS regarding a shrine in Srinagar, and as a corollary to that describe the views of [a] academics, [b] religious groups regarding that shrine as presented in WP:RS. This talk page is not a forum, it can only be about improvements to the article, which means primarily about WP:RS. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:34, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
• I actually agree that Gerald O' Collins negative statement should not be left alone. Other statements supporting Gerald O' Collins statement should be added. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:34, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

And it will remain unfair, until someone finds a WP:NOTABLE WP:RS that "challenges" him. The significance of this article is a matter of personal opinion, I guess. Its PURPOSE is to describe Roza Bal and what´s interesting about it, within the framework of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Neither this article nor Wikipedia has as its purpose to prove/disprove that Roza Bal is or is not the grave of JC. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:39, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

The question of Relics e.g. the Rod, is probably a bit against facts. Even if it is supposed that there was the Rod of Moses (as photographed by Khwaja Nazir Ahmad in his book, being held by Jesus, why at all should the Jewish Sanhedrin let Jesus inherit that holy Relic of Moses ? No question arises. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 21:36, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Ahmadiyya claims regarding shrine

This section lacks something relevant: ahmadiyya claims regarding the shrine. The lead states that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed in 1899 that it is actually the tomb of Jesus, but this section that should expand on the subject has nothing. Should we correct this? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:55, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

That's a good point, but beyond (a) the claim itself and (b) supposed evidence for the claim, there doesn't appear to be any other claim. The section on Khwaja Nazir Ahmad probably needs checking to specifically note any additional claims regarding the shrine. In fact one glaring thing that is missing is the specific claim about the direction of the grave. It's part of the original Buddha story as referenced "Then he stretched out his legs and turned his head to the west and his face to the east. He died in this position."[42][43], but when this claim moved from Ibn Babuwayah's Buddha story to association with the actual grave isn't referenced. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:25, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

I added the claim, it should be in the body of the article as well. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:38, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Mullah Nadiri?

What is the Identity of the 'Other' man lying East-West in the Shrine Roza Bal beside Syed Naseeruddin ???Drali1954 (talk) 05:53, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Dr Ali. The answer to that depends on tracking down Khwaja Nazir Ahmad, Jesus in Heaven on Earth (1952) claim that Mullah Nadri 1420 AD, used as a source by Haidar Malik (1620s), mentions either (a) Yuzasaf, or (b) Rozabal. If you could verify that source that would take back to 1620. Currently we are at 1747. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:55, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I tried to reach the Source Tarikh e Kashmir by Mulla Nadiri. The story is, in 1946, Khwaja Nazir Ahmad examined the source and did photograph the necessary pages. The MSS was moth eaten and in a very dilapidated state. The actual picture of the page – 69 has been re-produced in the book Jesus in Heaven on Earth. After the death of the elder Basharat Saleem, the MSS had been in the custody of his grand children. Presently the MSS is probably with the family of the late Z A Bukhari. (the Ex Director General Radio Pakistan).

The contents of the page-69 can be clearly read, being in Persian. It mentions the words Hadhrat Issa and Yuz Asaf and Bani Israel . Also the holy place bait ul muqaddas. I have compared the he English redering of page-69 of Tarikh e Kashmir of Mulla Nadri as quoted with the Persian MSS and found correct:

[English translation Page-69] “After him his son Raja Akh (whose name was Ach), came to the throne. He ruled for sixty years. It is said that he founded the village (of) Achabaal in Kothar district. After him his son, Gopananda, took (the reigns of) Government and ruled the country under the name of Gopadatta. (During his reign) many temples were (built) and on top of Mount Solomon the dome (of the temple) became cracked. He deputed one of his ministers named Sulaiman, who had come from Persia to repair it. Hindus objected that he (the Minister) was an infidel of (and belonged to) another religion. During this time Hazrat Yuz Asaf having come (marfu: elevated) from (Bait-ul-Muqaddas) the Holy Land to this holy valley (Wadi-e-Aqdas) proclaimed his prophethood. He devoted himself, day and night, in (prayers to) God, and having attained the heights of piety and virtue, he declared himself to be a Messenger (of God) for the people of Kashmir. He invited people (to his religion). Because the people of the valley had faith in this Prophet, Raja Gopadatta referred the objection of Hindus to him (for a decision). It was because of this Prophet's orders that Sulaiman, whom Hindus called Sandeman, completed (the repairs of ) the dome. (Year) Fifty and four. Further, on one of the stones of the (flankwalls encasing the) stairs he (Sulaiman) inscribed: In these times Yuz Asaf proclaimed his prophet-hood (Persian “Dar een waqt Yuz Asaf da'wa-i-paighambari mikunad”), and on the other stone of the stairs he also inscribed that he (Yuz Asaf) was Yusu, Prophet of Children of Israel (“Aishan Yusu Paighambar-i-BaniIsrael ast”). I have seen in a book of Hindus that this prophet was really Hazrat Isa (Jesus), Ruh-Allah (the Spirit of God) on whom be peace (and salutations) and had also assumed the name of Yuz Asaf. The (real) knowledge is with God. He spent his life in this (valley). After his departure (death) he was laid to rest in Mohalla Anzmarah. It is also said that lights (anwar) of prophethood used to emanate from the tomb (Rauza) of this Prophet. Raja Gopadatta having ruled for sixty years and two months died.. ." (Page 401-402, Jesus in Heaven on Earth by Khwaja Nazir Ahmad.

Dr, Ali, thanks, okay I have found the pdf on the web (Jesus in Heaven on Earth 1952 Chapter 24 http://www.muslim.org/bookspdf/jihoe/jihoe24-27.pdf)

(Nazir Ahmad himself speaking) I will now quote from two very old books of history. The first (in Persian) is attributed to Mulla Nadiri, the first Muslim historian of Kashmir. The book, when I saw it, was moth-eaten and the first and last few pages were unfortunately missing. I had the relevant folio photographed, but before I could complete my negotiations for the purchase of the MSS. I had to leave Srinagar on account of the Partition of India. The author dealing with the reign of Gopadatta (f. 69) writes:

And then the purported actual text:

(Lost Book seen in 1946) ... and on the other stone of the stairs he also inscribed that he (Yuz Asaf) was Yusu, Prophet of Children of Israel (Aishan Yusu Paighambar-i-Bani Israel ast). I have seen in a book of Hindus that this prophet was really Hazrat Isa (Jesus), Ruh-Allah (the Spirit of God) on whom be peace (and salutations) and had also assumed the name of Yuz Asaf. The (real) knowledge is with God. He spent his life in this (valley). After his departure (death) he was laid to rest in Mohalla Anzmarah. It is also said that lights (anwar) of prophethood used to emanate from the tomb (Rauza) of this Prophet. Raja Gopadatta having ruled for sixty years and two months died.. ."

Is there a photo of the page? It would be an interesting source if a copy could be found, because if it is pre-1899 it'd be the only evidence prior to Ghulam Ahmad of identification of Yuzasaf with Isa. However I'm guessing it is written 1900-1946 since the identification of Yuzasaf with Jesus is so amazing that if there had ever been any mention of it prior to 1899 then Ghulam Ahmad's idea would not have been so surprising. The one thing we can be certain of is it cannot be Mullah Nadiri (c 1420), since there is no mention of it in any of the sources dependent on Mullah Nadiri. What we now need to do is provide a reference to Khwaja Nazir Ahmad's claim to have seen a lost book in 1946. Günter Grönbold presumably comments on Nazir Ahmad's claim to have seen a book. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

{{out} Hi in Ictu Oculi, The Link you have quoted above has pdf pages (44 pages in total) from the Book 'Jesus in Heaven on earth' page 383-426 of the Book, (44 pages in total)

on page 393 (11 of pdf) Persian page Photographed in 1946.

On page 407 (25 of pdf file) see the TWO Inscriptions.

On page 403 (21 of pdf) Hindu Sanskrit text of maha Purana .("Iesa meeting the king Shalivan...")

The important point to note is the complete concordance of the Tarikh e Kashmir, the Two Inscription and the book Ainul Hayat... Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 13:27, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Dr Ali, many thanks, got them

on page 393 (11 of pdf) Photograph of a folio from Tarikh-i-Kashmir (See page 401).

on page 407 (25 of pdf) Inscriptions in Takht-i-Sulaiman, Srinagar. (See page409)

Bhavishya Purana we don't need since sources in the article already show that it is from the time of Queen Victoria and it has no connection with the shrine to Budasaf at Roza Bal. Now we need Günter Grönbold or Norbert Klatt's comments on p393 and p407. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:47, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi In Ictu Oculi , be well. Views of these two Scholars, would be worth considering only if they subscribe to the opinion that Jesus has died a mortal death, otherwise why should they search for his Grave or entertain any such possibility? Do you know anything about them? Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 04:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Dr Ali. Wikipedia doesn't work like that. We accept scholars as WP:IRS because they are qualified and typically have university or similar tenure. In this case Günter Grönbold and Norbert Klatt are the two main German scholars who have analysed the various texts claimed by Ghulam Ahmad and Nazir Ahmad. Wikipedia reflects the views of qualified scholars. So we'd need to find e.g. Günter Grönbold and Norbert Klatt's opinion of the 1946 photograph and inscription no.4 on the Shankaracharya Temple. Anyway, did you see my question about the inscriptions, exactly what language is No.4 in? In ictu oculi (talk) 05:23, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I wonder if you would get interested in the work of Prof Paul C. Pappas,(1991) a Professor of History, he has written a book with the name Jesus' Tomb in India . I scanned through the book, unlike Gunter Gronbold he seems to support the opposite view.[1] ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 12:27, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Dr Ali, I really did not want to come back to this page, but your message on my talk page seemed like an invitation. I should have known better, and should not have even looked, but I did take a quick look at the Papas book because I had never seen i before, and my reading seems to be different:

• Page 97: Not only the works by the Ahmadis, but also their scholarship is questionable. They seem to have selected passages and to have presented them inaccuraely and out of context in order to prove that Jesus traveled to Kashmir.

• Page 100: Therefore, the Ahmadi thesis can rest only on eastern legends recorded in oriental works, which for the most part are not reliable, not only because they were written long after the facts, but also because their stories of Yuz Asaf are different and in contradiction.

• Page 115 (last paragraph): It is almost impossible to identify Yuz Asaf with Jesus.

I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Hence my apologies in advance. History2007 (talk) 13:51, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi dear History2007, I am grateful for your considered and kindly views. Be well. ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 03:48, 7 April 2013 (UTC)