Talk:Royal standards of England

Picture

Would someone be able to include a picture of the Royal standard of England. The standard is 3 gold lions Passant on a red feild.

Pictures

The pictures on this article (heraldic banners) are not what is mainly described in this article (the Tudor standard proper). AnonMoos (talk) 03:04, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Page merger

This page should be merged with Arms_of_England. The motto section is irrelevant to the banner and should be in the Arms of England page and too is the arms of the Commonwealth. Pmsmythe (talk) 21:46, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. The page should stay separate but needs to be extended along the lines of the Royal Standard of Scotland page. Additionally the user Pmsmythe appears to have been unmasked as a Sock puppet of user Mr Taz consequently both accounts have been blocked. I have therefore removed the merger request. ThinkingTwice ^{contribs | talk} 15:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Image of English Royal Standard

Hi - I've just posted this on the England page discussion, and I guess it's particularly applicable to this page too:

Hi,

Could someone change the image for the English Royal Standard that's being used? The version that's currently on the page looks as though it's been taken from a shield and has something very strange going on with the angle of the bottom lion's leg!!! It looks a little bit amateur for the England page (no offense intended!). May I suggest this image as a replacement, which I thinks looks a lot better and indeed like that used by the government & royal family within the royal standard of the UK:

Otherwise liking all your work on this page btw! Brunanburh (talk) 20:07, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok so I've now altered the above image by trimming off the sides and adding to the top and bottom so that it is now a 3:5 ratio - a more standard flag dimension (and to match the dimensions of the St George's Cross image on the England page):

Hope this helps! Brunanburh (talk) 21:22, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok so I've changed it to this new high-quality image I've produced:

• 
  Royal Standard of England (2) at 3^5 ratio.svg

Brunanburh (talk) 01:06, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Photos and other examples?

I know that it is possible to buy modern, polyester reproductions of the English Royal Standard, but does anybody have a photograph of a historical example? Maybe something kept in a museum? What about medieval illustrations? --Jza84 |  Talk  16:11, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Cant even find any on google. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.27.17.6 (talk) 23:19, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, I found a semi-decent reference, which may help. --Jza84 |  Talk  17:02, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

banner ≠ standard

It would probably be good if this article were to decide whether it's about banners or about standards. —Tamfang (talk) 07:29, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi Tamfang, (nice format of the section, & of the wording, BTY), as I told Jza84‎, I created this article in November '08, as heraldic references of known Banners + Badges + Mottoes, (inc: Earl of Mar (1875): Chiefs Standard: Arms: The Scottish Saltire of Scotland: Edited out! and the WP:Henry de Stafford image) if all such images had been uploaded, it would be a good enough article on its own. Personally, I think this specific section (+Scotland example) should be moved to the Heraldic flag article. As for banner ≠ standard, I think both (RSoE) & (RAoE), should be restructured. I think the principal of a well referenced, and imaged, collection of all known examples of 'Royal devices,' on royal banners & standards - of England, should be the overall intention of this (RSoE) article. I think the rest of (relevant RSoE) content should be edited into the Royal Arms of England, which itself, should be written from a more 'England/English history' perspective, with emphasis on the specific Royal Arms - of the houses and monarchs - of England. If anyone is serious about re-creating these Stubs, into encyclopedic Articles worthy - of England; Although I cannot upload anything from my computer, I can photocopy my images and (ISBN &c refs), and FAX them to anyone who will upload these, into WP:commons, for use in these &/or other Articles. I'm open to any suggestions &/or consensus on improving these articles. Ta Steve. (PS: IMO: a 'full stop' divides a sentence ok, but a 'colon' emphasises that specific sections' relevance, without having to Bold or Italic the text?? ;) Stephen2nd (talk) 11:59, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

A colon marks structure, not emphasis. A long string of phrases connected by colons is bewildering. —Tamfang (talk) 04:43, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

The term "royal standard" for what is technically a heraldic banner (rectangular flag) may be a misnomer, but it's a misnomer of very long standing, and it's not really the job of Wikipedia to invent new terminology which may be more correct than the terminology actually in use... AnonMoos (talk) 14:55, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Sure, but then what about standards? (Heh, a pun.) As the article stands now, the beginning and end are about rectangular banners of arms, and the middle is about livery standards, without little if any explanation of the transitions. Guess I'll think about a new structure. —Tamfang (talk) 05:07, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

This concerns me too. Whichever way we decide to go (which I'll come to in the next paragraph), I have uploaded File:Royal Standard of England.jpg to commons for use at Wikipedia if we so wish - it's not the best image in the world, but it is free to use.

Where is the reference material coming from for this article? There appears to be some confusion about whether this article is about one flag, a series of standards or a banner/banners, but it's hard to work out the merits of these two perspectives without submitting any evidence. Before we think about a retitling/restructing, the principal question for me is where are we getting our information from? Because the stuff I added tells me we're talking about the flag with three lions on it. --Jza84 |  Talk  15:33, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

When I created this page, I used the title "Royal Standard of England," due to the heraldic difference between a “Royal Banner” and “Royal Arms.” (Boutell; p251). Also due to the heraldic difference between “Banner of the Royal Arms” and “The Royal Standard.” REF: (A Complete Guide to Heraldry. A.C. Fox-Davies. (1909) (p474)): It is a misnomer to term the banner of the Royal Arms the Royal Standard. The term standard properly refers to the long tapering flag used in battle, by which an overlord mustered his retainers in battle. Next to the staff was the flag of St. George – the remainder of the standard was of the colours of the livery, devices, badges, with the motto transverse, dividing the standard into different compartments for the badges &c. This article was specifically written about the original (heraldically correct) version of the “Royal Standard.”

You edited all this out, and replaced it with your (stuff you added). I admit in 2008, I did not cite these sources. But also, I was not aware that you had changed the whole context of the Article, into your different version of a “Royal Standard,” which is about a flag with - the arms of three lions on it, (NB: Arms are displayed on banners: Boutell p251) - not about the WP:original (historically/heraldically correct), version of (RSoE). My "Standards" section is the correct content for the (RSoE) Article. Regards Steve Stephen2nd (talk) 21:10, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

OK. That's great and makes things far clearer. Apologies if I've perpetuated the confusion you sought to avoid.

I suppose there are two hurdles now: 1) As pointed out by User:AnonMoos, the misnomer has gained some currency making "Royal Standard" ambiguous. How do we best disambiguate the two concepts? 2) Following Scotland as an example, I was of the view that we needed a space for two seperate "three lions" flag and arms articles. Now I'm not so sure. What would be consensual and best for our readers to have the information? --Jza84 |  Talk  23:16, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

I have created the test page User:Jza84/Sandbox2 as a possible solution. --Jza84 |  Talk  00:24, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Proposed merger/reorganisation of material

Given the discussion above, I'd like to propose a shift in the presentation of three closely related articles:

• Royal Standard of England to become the space soley about the standards of English monarchs (may need retitling - "English royal standards" or something appropriate)
• Remove the material about the Royal Banner of England (the three lions flag) and merge it into the Royal Arms of England.
• Check all references to Royal Standard of England on Wikipedia and have them changed (possibly by bot or autowikibrowser) to "Royal Banner of England" where appropriate.

The rationale for the move is that the Royal Banner is not a Royal Standard, but is purely the Royal Arms but in flag form; the two can readily and adequately be covered in one article (because they share the exact same history and concepts). The merged article about the "three lions" emblem would, in my view, look something like User:Jza84/Sandbox2, which I think is good stuff. Thoughts/support/insults? --Jza84 |  Talk  12:41, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

In full support of this rationale, I propose something like User:Stephen2nd/Sandbox (f)‎, for Royal Standard of England (or whatever title), I've plenty of good references for each section, although I'm stumped for an opening image box? (the five kings/dates/houses)?? Regards Steve. Stephen2nd (talk) 15:18, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

If we can find an example, the Wikipedia:Graphic Lab might be able to help with some of the standards, or else appealing someone like User:Sodacan or User:Pbroks13. Would the standards article only deal with those of the monarchy? --Jza84 |  Talk  16:13, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

P.S. fotw seems to use the format of "English royal standards" or the "Royal Standards of England", and gives a couple of examples. --Jza84 |  Talk  14:33, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

"Royal Standards of England" would seem more appropriate. (Still stumped on opening image box, and I can't find anything to use in WP:Commons). I'm now researching references for the "history section" text. Thanks for your contributions &c. Ta for now. Steve. Stephen2nd (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

No problem. I'll see what I can do once I've done with the banner page. If there is no objection raised, I plan to be bold and enact the proposed mergers within the next 24 hours. --Jza84 |  Talk  16:03, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I approve of both sandboxes. (Without reading in detail; structure is what counts right now.) —Tamfang (talk) 16:03, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Excellent revamp of Royal Arms of England. Your (and everyone elses!) writing skills are far better than mine, if you or anyone would like to write the history/battles (or anything else)&c on (RSoE), I've no objections whatsoever. Nice working with you's on these Articles. Many regards and thanks again, Steve :) Stephen2nd (talk) 19:42, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

the table of standards

I put the portraits in a separate column to prevent Oliver's title from wrapping around it.

It would be good if Henry's two standards could have labels saying when/where each was used, if that is known. —Tamfang (talk) 17:33, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

The Book of the Medieval Knight. Stephen Turnbull. (1985). ISBN: 1854092642. Gives very good descriptions of (military) who did what and where &c, most chapters have "Standards" (coloured). (p168) Shows the Standard of (1) Edward Duke of York, later Edward IV. (2) Ditto Richard III. (3) Ditto Henry Tudor, later Henry VII, which he displayed at Bosworth Field - (different motto) - inc, image of same (repro-) standard flying at BF. (p144) Ditto Richard Nevile Earl of Warwick - used during War of the Roses. (p136) Ditto Henry 2nd Duke of Buckingham at St. Albans & Northampton. (p105) John Duke of Bourbon - cross of St. Denis - dif motto - fought at Agincourt. (p100) ditto Archibold Earl of Douglas - saltire. (p101) ditto Henry Bolingbrook, later Henry IV. (p33) ditto Edward III, arms instead of St. George - three feathers & lots of lions! This may answer your question, but I'll keep looking for more stuff. Ta Steve. Stephen2nd (talk) 18:45, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

This specific "standards texts" as the heraldic descriptions of the (RSoE) Article came from my CD: "Heraldry Reference Library", (See here, with list of 23 C19th heraldry books [1]. this is a very informative CD. (Only $8 !!!!!) (Again, nice work on the format) Regards and thanks. Steve. Stephen2nd (talk) 21:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

we need a standard to distinguish between standards and standards

These Standards, or personal flags, were displayed by armigerous commanders in battle, but mustering and rallying functions were performed by livery flags; notably the standard which bore the liveries and badges familiar to the retainers and soldiers, of which their uniforms were composed.

Uh, so — a Standard marked the personal presence (I guess) of the commander, while a standard was used more generally? I don't think capitalization was distinctive in those days. —Tamfang (talk) 20:50, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

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