Talk:Royal Navy Surface Fleet

Protection no longer needed

I think semi-protection for this page is no longer needed as the culprit is indefinitely blocked Srikar Kashyap (talk) 06:31, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

He keeps evading the block by creating new accounts. Materialscientist (talk) 06:32, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Is he "the one who is not so great"? Srikar Kashyap (talk) 06:39, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

The Navy List

Gives the more accurate command structure

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/-/media/royal-navy-responsive/documents/useful-resources/navy-list.pdf?la=en-gb

Sammartinlai (talk) 15:34, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Your citations say "surface fleet", not "Surface Fleet"

Below is a copied conversation that has been moved here from heres User talk:Navops47/Your citations say "surface fleet", not "Surface Fleet".--Navops47 (talk) 03:51, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

"It is not a military unit or formation. It has no commander or headquarters. You could try and retitle the article Surface combatants of the Royal Navy, or maybe Surface forces of the Royal Navy, but again that's not a military unit or formation; it's a description of a particular type of naval force - surface, as opposed to sub-surface or air.

The article is an anomaly in your otherwise excellent series of RN formation articles. To match your series of other articles, your options are (a) Rear Admiral Surface Ships, which accords with MILUNIT as the most recent name of the appointment (since we're going off appointments rather than organisations), or merging the data into Home Fleet and Commander-in-Chief Fleet, which would follow your earlier logic in terms of organisations.

All the fleet composition data is misplaced; it belongs in Western Fleet (United Kingdom) and Commander-in-Chief Fleet.

Currently I will have to remove the military-unit-and-formation categories from this article, because this is not a unit or formation.

Happy to chat, but I hope you do see what I mean - this isn't an organisation. You cannot capitalise the name. Buckshot06 (talk) 19:06, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Hello Buckshot okay lets start from scratch here: https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/ Our Organisation. The five fighting arms of the Royal Navy work together to protect our nation’s interests at sea, on land and in the air. Listed are Surface Fleet, Submarine Service, Fleet Air Arm, Royal Marines, Royal Fleet Auxiliary note capitalistion on the official website. Technically the correct official term to be used here is an arm of the Royal Navy. However with the exception of the Fleet Air Arm that term is not being used correctly to describe the other fighting arms. In the specific link about the Surface Fleet again you will note the use of capitalisation. Looking at the term, military arm various dictionary definitions describe it as a branch of an armed force a military branch is then described as a division of a military organisation and a division is then described as a military unit. Classifying it as a military unit is correct and it does have a commander the Commander UK Maritime Forces and Rear-Admiral Surface Ships duel titled the fact that he has two titles must mean there is a difference in his responsibilities which we need to find out otherwise why use two titles. I would suggest the following then after reading your comments re word the history section, we remove all information regarding administration/command structure of this military arm or branch prior to 2002 including the history and distribute it accordingly to where it should be in the C-in-C Fleet article not the Western Fleet it was disbanded in 1971. Section 6 of the Royal Navy Surface Fleet should then be re-worded as administration of the surface fleet. The introduction will need to be changed to describe it as a fighting arm or branch of the Royal Navy similar to the Fleet Air Arm article for consistency all 5 fighting arms or 5 fighting branches of the RN should be described the same way and currently they are not we have for the The Corps of Royal Marines (RM) is the amphibious light infantry of the Royal Navy, The Fleet Air Arm (FAA) is the branch of the British Royal Navy, The Royal Navy Submarine Service is the submarine element of the Royal Navy, The Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA) is a civilian-manned fleet owned by the United Kingdom's Ministry of Defence. What do you think?--Navops47 (talk) 03:42, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

I have just gone ahead and done the changes and have preserved the prose here which I will add to the correct article/s shortly.--Navops47 (talk) 05:00, 6 August 2018 (UTC)-

I have identified some further discrepcies in the sub-commands particulary the Commander UK Task Group I have cited from Colin Mackies lists the following:

Commander UK Task Group, (COMUKTG) - reporting to COMUKMARFOR, (2001–2011)

Commodores commanding

• Commodore Hugh A.H.G. Edleston: April 2001-January 2002
• Commodore James R. Fanshawe: January–December 2002
• Commodore Richard D. Leaman: January–June 2003
• Commodore Anthony J. Rix: November 2003-January 2006
• Commodore Bruce N.B. Williams: January 2006-December 2007
• Commodore Duncan L. Potts: December 2007-December 2008
• Commodore James A. Morse: December 2008-January 2011

Note: COMUKTG post renamed Deputy Commander United Kingdom Maritime Forces in January 2011. Deputy Commander United Kingdom Maritime Forces

• Commodore Simon Ancona (Jan 2011 – Jun 2011)
• Commodore John Clink (Jun 2011 – Oct 2012)
• Commodore Jeremy Blunden (Oct 2012 – Feb 2015)
• Commodore Guy Robinson (Feb 2015–2016)

The appointments then continue from that date under the new name. However when you follow the link to Commander UK Task Group it takes you this article Joint Expeditionary Force (Maritime) the articles section on Command structure is different it states the following: Command structure JEF (M) is directly commanded at sea by Commander Amphibious Task Group (COMATG), typically an officer the rank of Commodore. COMATG is in-turn subordinate to Commander United Kingdom Maritime Forces (COMUKMARFOR) who is responsible for directing "UK, Allied or Coalition maritime forces anywhere in the world". Commander UK Task Group has been as follows:

• Commodore John Kingwell (2010–2011)
• Commodore Paddy McAlpine (2012–2013)
• Commodore Jerry Kyd (2014–2015)
• Commodore Martin Connell (2015– 2016)
• Commodore Andrew Burns (May 2016 -)

From March 2015 the title changed from COMUKTG to Commander Amphibious Task Group (COMATG).

In the Surface Fleet article the section Amphibious Task Group the appointments are continuous from 2001 and cited JEFM commanders Kingwell to Burns are in Mackies list as COMMATG not UKTG the commanders are different and UKTG became DCOMMUKMARFOR so am now confused any thoughts anyone?--Navops47 (talk) 05:58, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

COMUKTG has dropped from **star to one star over the years, yes. Set it up as another separate article, Commander United Kingdom Task Group and start filling in the history of the post, and things will become clearer. The best title for this present article at the moment is the one just below the bolded, Commander United Kingdom Maritime Forces and Rear-Admiral Surface Ships. Buckshot06 (talk) 10:51, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, the answer to your question is that JEF(M) is a PR title, it is not a command, formation, and you will find no officer labelled Flag Officer or Commander JEF (M). It's a capability concept, not a military formation. Set up Commander Amphibious Task Group as well and move relevant sections from there. Buckshot06 (talk) 10:55, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

References