Talk:Rowing (sport)/Archive 2

Archive

The talk page was archived on December 1, 2006. Previous discussions can be found at: Talk:Rowing (sport)/Archive 1. Several recent on going discussions have been kept here. Swlenz 21:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Lists

Someone removed the govening bodies, i've replaced as removing them & keeping clubs & companies makes no sense. but tidying all to only notable might clean up a bit (wiki article it on is prob a good standard) coments? Nate1481 21:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

excellent potential source

A PDF, made originally for teaching gym rowing instructors how to row, etc. http://www.rowbics.com/instructors/IRTCI_manual.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.19.53.136 (talk) 02:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The Crew section

This seciton has been edited so it is now based almost entirly on eights, it origanlly tried to describe all boats some replacment of the old materal may be a good idea. Nate1481 23:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I've done some rewriting of the section myself, but I am reluctant to remove stuff to avoid offending contributors. It has become too long and too 'eight' specific. Baring an objections, I'll try pruning the section down next week. Swlenz 19:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Listing of clubs

There is no way whatsoever we can list all the clubs on this page, it'd be far too long a list. We have categories anyway. The list of notable clubs should be just that - notable ones, with a major history of producing top international rowers, being the leading club in their country and/or producing multiple olympic medallists. Not ones that started three years ago for the local community. I've pruned the list of ones that don't have articles stating their level of achievement. I've left Penn as they have a long history, including olympic gold medal winning crews. Average Earthman 21:49, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

This is starting to get rather long as well. Maybe its time to tighten up the conditions for adding to the list? BenJury 10:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Would any club worth listing prob. at least have it's own article? This could be used as a rule of thumb even if there are some exceptions. Nate1481 00:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Good point, I've pruned all the links that dont have a Wikipedia entry...

• Feel free to add as many clubs as you like and a (relatively) un-biased blurb according to the standard format on Rowiki.com John Bartucz 16:11, Nov 21, 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I doubt most clubs would go to the effort of doing an entry - Maybe just some links to the clubs own sites - most have them. - One big old page 'o' links.

Reply

Maybe the actual huge list of clubs should be on a new article. That should work out. On this page put only the major ones, but make a little note to see the full list, see this page here{where it says here it links to that article). Hope that sparks some crazy idea!Carmaster 1000 (talk) 00:59, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Good Article Peer Review

I've failed this GA because it has no inline cites and is overly listy at the end. Work some of it into the prose, get some actual citations, and get some more information from a peer review, and you should be in good shape. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Article is too long

This article was 40kb long before I made a few edits. The section on boat positions now has its own article and the long lists of clubs, companies, governing bodies and noted female rowers have been removed. They can quite easily be found using the see also links. That is what the section is for. The article is still a bit too long (32kb), and I would suggest moving large parts of some of the other large sections to seperate articles. They are unsourced and most likely original research as it is, so moving them will make adding citations a lot easier. Does anyone have any suggestions for names of sub-articles?--The Spith 19:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the history section is a candidate for a separate sub-article. As it stands, it is both too long in the context of the page but highly selective (very focused on UK and US, not enough pre 19th century, not enough on professional rowing...and the interpretation that UK amateur rowing started solely with Eton is highly arguable). Suggest that the section is pruned back and a new page started, though that new page would then need a lot of work. If others think this idea is sensible, I will have a go at this in the next week or so if I get a chance. James of Putney 09:12, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, although once it has been changed it need not be too much shorter than its current length. Maybe a paragraph less or so. It needs a lot of citations as well. I managed to find a good one for the Dogget's coat and badge, but the rest will take a bit of work. As for the Eton claim - if the original editor cannot find a source then there is nothing to stop it being deleted. The Spith 18:37, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Another good category for deletion would be the Coastal and Ocean section, which isn't really a part of this sport but one to itself. The little bit on "open water racing" is, however, related to normal rowing. I think we should get rid of "ocean and coastal rowing" as a section, mention it in see also, and put in something about open water racing. --Applesawz 02:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Citations

I have no objection to the length and was considering giving it GA status however, it falls a little short in the citations category. There are also a couple of these type of links [www.espn.com] for notes, with just a web address inside two [] which is not acceptable per WP:Cite. Also it still needs more citations, one line stands out "The first recorded race in America took place on the Schuylkill River in 1762 between 6-oared barges." Any time you state anything is the first of it's kind you need a source. In the same paragraph as that sentence there 2-3 other statements declaring something the first of it's kind with no sources.Quadzilla99 00:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Can you point out the other un-cited 1st(fact tag would be good), and were there any other than the 2 in side by side (now fixed) --Nate1481 03:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Sure, I did. Quadzilla99 13:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Done! Just the barge race unsourced can't find anything obvious on-line so unless someone can find a book I'll' remove in 1 week (24th) --Nate1481 16:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Only thing I can find online is actually a reference to an earlier race in 1756 - http://www.rowinghistory.net/Time%20Line/TL%20-1849images.htm -- James of Putney 17:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I found and added a couple of cites myself to statements I felt needed them and gave it GA status. Just make sure to remove that barge statement if you can't find any sources for it. Overall good work. Quadzilla99 21:18, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

← Thanks for that, I've put the barge up on wp:rowing so we will see. From what's been said it may be difficult to find unless you have 'History of rowing in the US' lying around, will move to talk page rather than deleting thought in case someone can find it. --Nate1481 11:49, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Links

Removed from main page some may be of use on sub pages but it was getting crowded. --Nate1481 03:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

• Rachel Quarrell's Rowing Service — UK rowing news and information site.
• David Biddulph's Rowing Pages — widely used and revered source of extremely useful rowing information
• Physics of Rowing — A somewhat advanced mathamatical based approach to the physics of rowing.
• Tideway slug — UK rowing news, gossip and humour.
• "America's Oldest Intercollegiate Athletic Event" by John Venezianao, Sports Information Director, Harvard University Sports Information Director.
• Coxswain.com — Coxie.com is an interactive forum for coxswains and rowers alike. Articles, downloads and message board.
• rec.sport.rowing on Google Groups.
• Interscholastic Rowing Homepage of New England Interscholastic (High School level) Rowing Association
• Row Row Row your Boat - At which maximum speed? — A simple derivation of the maximum speed of rowing boats
• Rowing Computer Research — How rowing really works.
• Row2k.com — World wide Rowing information site with news, results and photographs.
• Virtual Library: Rowing.

Popular culture

Screenplays and television shows

• Eight Girls in a Boat (1934), the stroke of the school's eight, contemplates killing herself when she finds herself pregnant. Stars Dorothy Wilson and Douglass Montgomery
• Triumph of the Will (1935), celebrated German Olympic rowers.
• A Yank at Oxford (1938), screenplay co-written by F. Scott Fitzgerald.
• Oxford Blues (1984), modern remake of A Yank at Oxford starring Rob Lowe as a talented rower who schemes his way into Oxford University.
• The Boy in Blue (1986), Nicolas Cage portrays Ned Hanlan, a famous Canadian rower of the 19th century.
• Hey Babu Ribu (1986), a Yugoslavian film set in the 1950s about a young crew who are all in love with their cox'n.
• With Honors (1994), Moira Kelly appears as a coxswain coaching a crew of Harvard rowers.
• True Blue (1996), based on the book of the same name by Dan Topolski and Patrick Robinson about the 1987 Oxford Boat Race mutiny. The film was re-released in the US in 2004 under the title A Miracle at Oxford.
• Rowing Through (1996), directed by Masato Harada is very loosely based on a book called 'The Amateurs' by David Halberstam which documents the rowing careers of four American single scullers and their Olympic quest.

• Golden Will: The Silken Laumann story (1996), is a made for Televsion movie based on the true story of Canadian Olympian Silken Laumann
• All for One: In the Spirit of the Row based on the University of California, Berkeley and their rowing history and tradition.
• Enemy of the State (1998), Will Smith is seen rowing a single scull.
• Kimberley (1999), Gabrielle Anwar plays a coxswain who dates all four members of the crew she is coaching. (re-released on DVD as Daddy Who? in 2005.
• The Skulls (2000), Joshua Jackson and Hill Harper are shown as stroke and coxswain, respectively, for the Yale crew.
• How High (2001), Redman stars alongside Method Man as two underachieving pot smokers, Silas and Jamal, who are invited to study at Harvard after being told test answers by the ghost of a dead friend. Redman joins the rowing team to impress a girl.
• Commander in Chief (TV series, 2005-), Geena Davis portrays President Mackenzie Allen, who has been shown rowing in a single scull in her spare time.

I have moved this section from the article as per Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections in articles and on the advice of WP:LAUNDRY. The article should remain focused on describing the sport, rather than its minor appearances in various medias. The following section might have more grounds for inclusion in the article, but needs to be converted to prose before being reinserted:

Rowers of wider fame

• Lewis Carroll (1832–1898), author of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking-Glass.
• Julian Clary, comedian, rowed with the Kingston Rowing Club.
• Pierre de Coubertin (1863–1937), founder of the modern Olympics.
• Thomas Eakins (1844–1916), American painter, enthusiastic enough to use rowing as a subject.
• Spencer Gollan (1860–1934), famous race horse owner.
• Jamie Hamilton, founder of publisher Hamish Hamilton was a member of Thames Rowing Club and won a Silver medal with the British eight at the Amsterdam Olympics
• Stephen Hawking, former coxswain; famous for his discoveries in the fields of astronomy, physics, and astrophysics (see Hawking radiation).
• John Heard, actor, rowed with Clark University.
• John B. Kelly, Sr. (1899–1960) triple Olympic Gold medalist in rowing. Self-made millionaire. Famous as the father of Grace Kelly, movie star and Princess of Monaco.
• Lord Kelvin (1824–1907), Noted scientist and engineer. Rowed at Cambridge. Famous for his mathematical analysis of electricity and thermodynamics. The Kelvin temperature scale is named after him.
• Hugh Laurie, star of House, rowed for Great Britain Juniors in 1977 and for Cambridge in the Oxford and Cambridge Boat Race in 1980. His father has an Olympic gold medal in rowing.
• James Mason, actor, rowed with the Peterhouse Boat Club.
• A B 'Banjo' Paterson (1864–1941) Australian bush poet, journalist and author. He was a member of the Balmain Rowing Club in Sydney, competing at a club level in the local regattas.
• Gregory Peck (1916–2003), Academy Award winning actor, rowed for UC Berkeley.
• James Stillman Rockefeller (1902–2004) industrialist, philanthropist, captain and member of the Yale University crew that won a gold medal in the 1924 Olympics.
• Dr. Benjamin Spock (1903–1998), pediatrician and author, member of the Yale University crew that won a gold medal in the 1924 Olympics.
• William Howard Taft (1857–1930), 27th President of the United States, rowed at Yale University.
• Chris O'Donnell (1970–), an American actor, rowed at Boston College and was a coxswain at Loyola Academy.

--eThe Spith 13:49, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Would a new article 'Rowing in Popular culture' be a good idea? --Nate1481 15:56, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

A new article isn't necessary. If anything on this list is going to be included on wikipedia, it should be done so in this article, however for anything to be included it must meet three requirements:

• Be notable
• Be written in prose
• Be verifiable

If you can edit anything on the list to meet these requirements then feel free to add it back to the article, preferably in the body of the text rather than in a seperate section. But, as I have said before, no-one needs to know any of the facts on these lists to gain a full understanding of the sport, and therefore they should be excluded on the basis of WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE, and Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections in articles.--The Spith 14:39, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

• I'm quite happy to see that section go, I've always hated it. It can go in a new trivia article if people want it, but I really feel it doesn't belong in the main article. Average Earthman 18:37, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

removed from the article - to discuss

If possible can you add acategory to this section as to:

Open Water Rowing is gaining in popularity especially on the West Coast of the US where races occur often on ocean waters. Open water rowing shells are rigged identically to the elite-olympic class boats described above, but the the hulls are water tight, carry slightly more beam for stability, but they are still 24 feet long and usually weight under 40 pounds, rowed with the same carbon fiber oars as elite shells. Races vary from 8 miles to 36 miles as in the Catalina Crossing or in the East the Blackburn Challenge. Usually only singles and doubles compete in open water races.

It's got its own article - Coastal_and_ocean_rowing Richard B 01:39, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

National federations

Average Earthman has removed a link to the Irish Amateur Rowing Union on the basis that this is a club. In fact, it's not: the IARU is the national federation for Ireland. This raises a question: at present there is a link to the UK Amateur Rowing Association but no other national federations. Should there be others?

James of Putney 09:59, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Any country where English is a recognized language, and the site is in English should probably be linked, if there are to many it deserves an article on Rowing Associations. --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 08:41, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Stick to WorldRowing.com. That links to all national associations.--Yeti Hunter 12:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Image Caption is wrong?

Is the caption wrong? Isn't the leftmost rower as viewed in the photo sitting in the bow of the boat, meaning that he'll cross the finish line just before the guy sitting in front of him does? Further, is the guy on the left of the picture rowing portside? Petershank 18:23, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I read it wrong. The caption is correct. Petershank 18:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Rowing Injuries and safety?

Someone might include an article about rowing heath and safety. Geo8rge 23:50, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Nutrition?

Someone may also consider the nutrition section as well. Rowers have very specific dietary needs that differ from most athletes - it could be a good addition.

'Monarch Rowing Club' at Eton

To the best of my knowledge there was never a ROWING CLUB at Eton known as the Monarch club. From the earliest of rowing days at Eton, which (to cut a long matter short) effectively means the 1790s, there were BOATS, which among other things formed a procession (still in existence on the 'Fourth of June' holiday at Eton) the senior of which was a ten-oar boat called, almost certainly as a tribute to the royal barge which carried King George III, MONARCH. The Monarch remains the senior boat in the present procession. The idea of a BOAT CLUB didn't really arise until later when schools/clubs started competing against each other. I don't have a date, but some time well into the 19th century would be about right - perhaps Henley records can enlighten us here. Records of Eton rowing in the 18th century are very sparse. It certainly is incorrect to talk of a rowing CLUB in this context. The existence of the MONARCH, and boats of other names, is certainly evidence of what we would now recognise as 'boat club activity', with racing limited within the school.

It is historically inaccurate to talk of 'the Monarch Boat Club' at Eton. There was 18th century boating at Eton, and boats had names, the senior boat (almost) always being the Monarch. I don't know when the Eton College Boat Club came into formal existence - probably to identify Eton boats at events such as Henley, well into the 19th century.

I was a boy at Eton, I taught there until recently, and was the master in charge of the Fourth of June Procession of Boats.

This is also my first contribution to Wikipedia - I trust I've observed the right conventions. Apologies if not.

Chipssy 12:49, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the information, could you edit it reflect the actual situation properly? As it will probably require rephrasing the whole paragraph and I don't want to accidentally remove valid info --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 13:03, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

ARA

Just to clarify while the ARA are not responsible for organisation and development in the Scotland and Wales, they are the governing body see: Amateur Rowing Association and their website. --Nate1481(^t/_c) 08:56, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be a lot of confusion here especially with the home country RAs - the Welsh and Scottish bodies both claim to be Governing Bodies on their Web sites but one (and only one) has now had it taken off the Wiki page. Are they affiliated to the International bodies - as I assumed - or only to the ARA - and is the ARA the governing body for England only with the BIRO covering the whole UK or is the ARA in overall charge? Do I need an answer? -not really just an agreed position on the articles. Thanks Confused of Motmit (talk) 22:37, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I intended to do both rather than just one, but will hold back if they are arguing among them selves. --Nate1481(^t/_c) 10:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

If you don't want to take my word for it, why not ask the Scots who they think governs rowing in Scotland, or ask the Northern Irish who they think governs rowing in Northern Ireland? We know that the ARA are responsible for international representation for GB (and note that I said GB, not UK), but that doesn't stop SARA governing domestic rowing in Scotland, and certainly doesn't stop the IARU's control in Ireland. And perhaps I could draw your attention to what is says about a governing body in the context of Wikipedia:

"Sport governing bodies comes in various forms, but the key factor is having some regulatory function. This may be disciplinary action for rule infractions, deciding on rule changes etc."

David Biddulph (talk) 08:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Section on coxes

on to do list it says put in a section on coxes. Is this really necessary as there is already a section on them in the linked article, Boat positions (sport rowing) Haystackhair (talk) 19:35, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Coaches on bike

They number so many. 67.243.6.204 (talk) 17:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Inside of the boat.

What does the inside of the rowing boat look like? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.27.219.133 (talk) 04:33, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Good point, possibly could include a picture of rigging the boat? I think I have one somewhere... --Yeti Hunter (talk) 09:25, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Easy enough to take one tomorrow morning at the boathouse Bassett42 (talk) 13:56, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Competition and Fitness

I don't know how to edit or add citations, so it would be great if someone could do this for me. About half way through, a citation is requested for the proposition that "This means that rowers have some of the highest power outputs of athletes in any sport.[citation needed] " A good citation is here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/07/health/07hearts.html. That article stated that the rower's heart is twice the mass of the normal heart, very elongated, and very muscular, to meet the extraordinary needs of the sport. Great article that I cite often. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Epi jules (talk • contribs) 22:26, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

The citation above was added by Motmit in the revision on 16:42, January 14, 2010. I have read through this article, and although it is a fine informational article, it does not explain why "This means that rowers have some of the highest power outputs of athletes in any sport." I think clarification for the definition of power is necessary. Power as defined by Wikipedia in Power is the "rate at which work is performed." I will undo the addition of this reference.

Also, I would like to point out that in the revision on 12:30, 20 March 2010 the statement "This means that rowers have some of the highest power outputs of athletes in any sport." was changed to "This means that rowers have by far the highest power outputs of athletes in any sport." This is an inaccurate statement. The world record for indoor rowing according to Wikipedia in List of world records in rowing is 5:36.6. Using the Concept 2 watt calculator, the power output for this performance is 588.4 watts. Compare this to the power output of Olympic weightlifters doing the jerk, and you will see a power output range of 2140 watts to 4786 watts, as shown by this study. You can compare power outputs for various sports in this article. As you compare, you can see that rowing does not have the highest power output out of any sport. It would make sense that the highest power outputs would come from sports that have movements that generate work over very short periods of time (i.e. weightlifting, throwing, sprinting). Although the amount of work that is done in rowing is much more than is done in these sports, the time period that it is accomplished in is much longer, thus making the amount of power that is generated less. I will undo the revision on 12:30, 20 March 2010.

The statement now needs a reference again. I will point out that the sustained power output of rowing is only about 1/4 of the power output from an olympic lifter, and so I would say that this statement is perhaps not accurate. Not only is it potentially inaccurate, but it is perhaps not the most well placed. Although rowing may have a high power output, I do not know why the reason for this would be because the standard race distance is 2000 meters, as the article suggests. I will not make any further changes, but I think further changes may need to come into consideration.Kansasland (talk) 03:49, 29 December 2010 (UTC)