Talk:Ross Allen (herpetologist)

Disambiguation

Copied from my talk page. Jujutacular ^talk 13:22, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Apparently there are several Ross Allens, such as an English footballer & perhaps someone involved in cricket. There are also many hits in google with a search for Ross Allen. Although there are not articles in Wikipedia now on these individuals, it is conceivable that one will be created in the future. I considered this when I created the article name as Ross Allen (herpetologist). You can see some of this by the “what links here”. Accordingly, I reverted this recent name change move. If you disagree, please take it to the discussion page. Thanks! FieldMarine (talk) 13:09, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

WP:DISAM#Deciding to disambiguate says "disambiguation is required whenever, for a given word or phrase on which a reader might search, there is more than one existing Wikipedia article to which that word or phrase might be expected to lead". There is the potential for other articles about "Ross Allen"s, but they don't currently exist. Standard practice is to not disambiguate when we only have a single article. That's my take, but I don't really care to force the issue. User:Yllosubmarine was the one that tagged the page for the move. Cheers, Jujutacular ^talk 13:22, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

In this case, there were already red links to Ross Allen when I created the article. Accordingly, I determined there was a likelihood for additional articles with the name Ross Allen or a chance that a link in an article may lead to the wrong person. That is why I distinguished him when creating this article. Thanks! FieldMarine (talk) 13:36, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

As the above user stated, I originally requested that this article be moved per guideline; you created a disambiguation page, but someone replaced said dab with a redirect because there are currently no other Ross Allens listed. Therefore, there is no need for a disambiguation, and this page should be moved back to Ross Allen, the previous redirect, as I requested. We can't guess what articles may or may not be present in the future -- all we can deal with is what is present now. María (habla conmigo) 14:11, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

IMHO, wikipedia should be set up with an eye for the future. As mentioned earlier, their are several links to the Ross Allen page from other articles in Wikepedia that are not this Ross Allen. This will cause confusion, so I recommend we distinguish them now. Thanks! FieldMarine (talk) 14:53, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

This doesn't make any sense, seeing as how there isn't even a disambiguation page to differentiate between "potential" Ross Allens. Distinguishing between these individuals would be helpful if it were needed. However, when someone goes looking for Ross Allen the cricketer or footballer or whomever, clicks the link that says Ross Allen, they are led here, to Ross Allen (herpetologist). The redirect is what causes confusion, IMHO, because it's unnecessarily misleading. Ross Allen, the alligator and snake lover, is the only one on the entirety of Wikipedia; per guidelines, he should therefore be listed at the main article until additional Ross Allens require a disambiguation page. I'm going to ask that someone move this page once more. María (habla conmigo) 15:05, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree the redirect should be a disamb to avoid the confusion you mention above. I don't know why it was eliminated. Please allow this discussion to continue before any moves are made. Thanks! FieldMarine (talk) 15:22, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Proper procedure would be to change those other "Ross Allen" links to be red links once more - say to Ross Allen (cricket). That way, they know there isn't currently an article about him, and there is no unnecessary disambiguation. Jujutacular ^talk 15:30, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus for move (nothing to show that he is the primary topic for Ross Allen) Kotniski (talk) 11:27, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

---

Ross Allen (herpetologist) → Ross Allen — There is currently only one Ross Allen on Wikipedia, so there is no need to disambiguate between this articles and others that do not exist. Ross Allen was originally a dab page with only one link on it; it was subsequently changed to a redirect, which obviously leads here. There is no need for either a redirect or dab per guidelines, as this article (until others exist) should be located at the main Ross Allen article. María (habla conmigo) 15:32, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose move of this article to Ross Allen. I believe there is a high potential for additional articles to be added in the future for other people named Ross Allen. A Google search with Ross Allen brings up many hits. In addition, although there are not currently other articles of people using this name, there are already links in several articles to other people named Ross Allen, i.e. footballer & cricket professional. IMHO, this article should remain as is with his profession to distinguish him in parenthesis. The generic Ross Allen should be used as as a Disamb. Thanks! FieldMarine (talk) 17:17, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose because there is a great potential for confusion between Ross Allen the herpetologist, Alan Ross the poet, Alan S C Ross the linguist, Ross Allen (former chairman of Taranaki Regional Council, New Zealand, 1989-2001), Allen Ross Scaife the classics professor, George Allen Ross the architect, and Allan Ross Webster the Canadian politician. These other names maybe spelt differently but the uninformed reader will still be confused because they are not all interested in herpetology. Green Giant (talk) 19:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• This is all very understandable, but do you know what currently happens when one searches for/clicks on Ross Allen? They are lead here, to the herpetologist, because a redirect is in place. One could easily add a see also link to the top of the main Ross Allen page directing people to the similarly named poet or Regional Council chairman or whomever. It sounds like you're advocating for a dab page, rather than opposing a move. One discussion at a time. María (habla conmigo) 23:36, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• Comment There is nothing wrong with opposing a move and suggesting an alternative; in fact it happens quite often in move discussions. Don't misunderstand me, I am strongly in favour of simpler article names but I am opposed to moving this article to Ross Allen because you are overlooking the fact his name isn't just "Ross Allen"; he is called E. Ross Allen by the University of Florida and by lostparks.com. I will support a move to E. Ross Allen unless anyone knows what the "E." stands for. Green Giant (talk) 02:21, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support as long as Ross Allen redirects here. If you think there are other meanings that merit a dab page, create it, but we shouldn't have parenthetical disambiguation without an associated dab page. Ucucha 19:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose I would say that Ross Allen should be a redirect to Ross Leslie Allen, with the herpatologist as a hatnote, although I query his notability. PatGallacher (talk) 19:51, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
  • There is certainly more than enough info available to prove Allen's notability. I'll add some details from reliable sources to prove as much. As for redirecting the page, completely unnecessary; from what I can tell, Ross Leslie Allen does not equal Ross Allen. María (habla conmigo) 15:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

• Comment - The herpetologist is referred to as both Ross Allen and E. Ross Allen and there is no evidence that one form is prevalent over the other; the same applies to Ross Leslie Allen. Some people are known by first-name last-name and some people are known by middle-name last-name. I don't think it is possible to claim that either person is the primary topic, so Ross Allen should be a disambiguation page, and let readers decide which article they wanted. There is no harm in herpetology-interested readers finding out about a politician and vice-versa. As I have said before, if you don't like the (herpetologist) suffix, then why not have this article at E. Ross Allen? Green Giant (talk) 04:03, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
• Comment - after a little investigation it appears his full name is Ensil Ross Allen and that he has a subspecies of snake named after him. María and Ucucha, on the question of notability, I think you are both being a little unfair to Pat Gallacher, seeing as the article at that point consisted of little more than one sentence and two references (of which one is someone's personal website). Green Giant (talk) 04:32, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

• WP:AGF, Green Giant. All it took was a simple Google search to turn up details proving Allen's notability; it wasn't intended as "unfair" to any one user in particular to point out that notability was indeed present, and that more than sufficient information was available to expand the article. I've done so, and more can be done if anyone else is interested. The reason why I don't believe E. Ross Allen (currently a redirect) is a worthwhile article name for this individual is because he is better known as Ross Allen. It's called the Ross Allen Reptile Institute, and a majority of the print sources I've found so far (aside from the books he's authored, of course) refer to him simply as simply Ross. I don't mind the "herpetologist" suffix, but it's improper to use it if Ross Allen continues to be a redirect. María (habla conmigo) 12:20, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

• Comment - why has the move-request been carried out, when this discussion clearly shows there is no consensus? Green Giant (talk) 20:49, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Sorry, my mistake, I dived in prematurely, and now I can't move it back. PatGallacher (talk) 21:46, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
    • No worries, I'm sure it will get sorted out soon. Green Giant (talk) 22:08, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
      • I've moved it back, without prejudice, pending outcome of this discussion. Station1 (talk) 05:35, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support If the herpetologist is the primary topic for Ross Allen (and the redirect indicates that he is), and the herpetologist is best known as Ross Allen rather than any other name (and the current article title indicates that he is), then the herpetologist's article should absolutely be at Ross Allen per our naming guidelines, particularly WP:PRECISION. Propaniac (talk) 17:49, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.