Talk:Roller Games

Still skating

The T-Birds are still skating. Their next game is October 13,2007 at Fairplex Pomona. The T-Bird website gives more info: www.lathunderbirds.com. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hlecptr (talk • contribs) 00:39, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

The T-birds are still skating there website is WWW.latbirds.com they are skating this saturday june 14 and 21 2008 at the Pomona fairgrounds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.142.210.160 (talk) 01:07, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

While the website is up, it appears abandoned and does not appear to have been updated since 2007. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.250.183.41 (talk) 06:17, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Roller Games existed beyond 1975

Whoever wrote this article is clueless.

I watched and attended Roller Games events in the Olympic Auditorium from 1978-1981 and they were sold out. There were WEEKLY events between 1975 and 1989 this article does not even mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.201.188.178 (talk • contribs) 20:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, I've seen sources in print that say Roller Games ended in 1975, but I haven't seen anything that contradicts that. If you can help find news clippings or interviews that would support your claim, then that would help greatly, and we can work them into the article. —mjb 20:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

But if Roller Games supposedly ended in 1975, who was running the matches that took place in the years 1975-1989 between teams that belonged in the Roller Games (or RGI) league? If I read the Wiki entry correctly, it clearly says it was failing. On top of that, having been to two T-Birds sites, they and a few other teams were still able to field teams throughout the remainder of the 1970s and the entire 1980s (before the RollerGames TV broadcasts of 1989-90).

Clearly, RollerGames was neither dead, nor did it end in 1975. Unfortunately, Leo Seltzer's International Roller Derby League did, dying a hard death in 1973, precipitated by the oil embargo. He actually closed up shop, while Bill Griffiths, Sr. remained in business, and Seltzer sold some of the rights to his Roller Derby leagues to Griffiths, including a couple of teams (one of them being the New York Chiefs). Most of its skaters joined other leagues. Joanie Weston and Charlie O'Connell suited up for the T-Birds in 1974, before going to Dave Lipschultz's International Roller Skating League (IRSL) in 1977, an attempt to resurrect Seltzer's Roller Derby leagues.

The fact that the unsigned person above saw Roller Games matches in the years 1978-81, and knows personally that they had matches there until 1989, proves that Roller Games did not come to an end in 1975. In fact, they were scaled down dramatically. Where, before 1975, they were able to hold 3 to 5 matches a week, with well over 5,000 in attendance, they probably were reduced to 1 match per week, maybe 2 at the most, with fewer than 5,000, maybe even as few as 1,000. The recession that year forced all of roller derby to be scaled back from what it used to be, before 1975. But there were times, after 1975, when both the ISC (aka 'Roller Games') and the IRSL were able to draw 10,000 or more, although mostly overseas or across the border. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CookyMonzta (talk • contribs) 20:50, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

The fact remains that the kind of firsthand information presented above is useless in an encyclopedia and carries no weight for someone doing academic research of sports history. We need citations of reliable, neutral, third-party sources, either in print or on video, preferably from mainstream or industry/trade publications that researchers have access to. Surely with all this Roller Games activity over the years, there's some press coverage of some kind, not just biased accounts by fans and ex-players. Why is this so hard to understand? Find these sources and cite them. —mjb (talk) 04:58, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

While I respect what you are telling me videos on YouTube say different - just Google Ronnie Rains arguably the biggest star in Roller Games and you can watch him in action in the 1980 SEASON OPENER. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Razor7 (talk • contribs).

From: http://www.liquid-blue.com/photos/bandmembers/scott/T-BirdHistoryHome.htm

The 1970's - Up's and Downs

... In 1973, Roller Games absorbed many Roller Derby skaters into the league when that original league folded. Within two years, Roller Games also shut down operations (for a short time) due to financial difficulties and other problems. With the determined hard work of many skaters, especially John Hall and Ralph Valladares, the T-Birds fielded a team in 1975 and began rebuilding. John and Ralphie opened a T-Bird training facility in Pico Rivera (the T-Bird Rollerdrome) and thus began a new era for the T-Birds, Roller Games and the sport of Roller Derby.

There it is ... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Razor7 (talk • contribs) 21:35, August 20, 2007 (UTC).

That's an improvement, and I see you added it to the article, but be careful. Who really wrote that? Bob Sedillo, the current owner? Scott Stephens, the webmaster? Can I trust these people not to whitewash history? The T-Birds history as told by an anonymous author on the team's own promotional site can be challenged as being a rather biased source of information. You have to think like a journalist if you want material on here to have longevity: always attribute claims to sources, even when you know them to be true and accurate. If you can't find a more neutral source, then it's especially important to say "according to…" in the prose. Also, you can't copy material verbatim from some other site; you have to paraphrase, or it absolutely will be removed as a "copyvio". —mjb 01:04, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

You're right to question this, however I offer this retort. I was there. I saw and attended games in this time period, and a family friend of ours is a world famous skater so I know for a fact the above is true. An eyewitness account is the best source of material for any journalist and I am in fact a professional journalist.

The web site I sourced is not associated with birds or Roller Games. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.201.188.178 (talk) 18:39, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Here is a source that may put everything to rest: Go to Scott Stephens' Liquid Blue site. He was a member of the T-Birds in the late-1970s to early-1980s. He has team photos from every year that Roller Games (or Roller Games International) was in operation.

You'll find the photos at this site: http://www.liquidbluetour.com/photos/bandmembers/scott/T-BirdsTeamPhotos.htm

The last game in the Bill Griffiths/Roller Games era was 1993. It was also Ralphie Valladares' last year as a skater. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CookyMonzta (talk • contribs) 23:30, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. I added it to the external links section of the article, as it is something that would definitely be of help to a researcher in that they supply some evidence that there were teams that at least posed for photographs in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s. This is better than the laudatory and promotional hype that fills most pages you find when searching for Roller Games on the web.

So far we have a whole bunch of information in the article about how Roller Games existed up to 1975 and beyond, nearly all of which comes from Scott Stephens' site, which is not a very unbiased source and contains a lot of fluff. Any source that uses the word "legendary" is basically garbage, even if it has a lot of things you "know" to be true in it. If you want this article to have longevity on Wikipedia, you've got to think more critically and seek out more neutral, unaffiliated sources like newspapers. —mjb (talk) 04:58, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately there is one major problem with the 'neutrality' of media sources: There are many Web sites and many people who refuse to acknowledge Roller Games or its operation. As far as many were concerned, all of roller derby ended with the demise of Leo Seltzer's International Roller Derby League in 1973. Never mind the fact that, in the wake of its demise, some of its best skaters joined Griffiths' Roller Games leagues (the National Roller League, later to become the International Skating Conference), although for a short time. Never mind the fact that the 'entertainment' factor existed in both leagues, although Roller Games simply had more of it.

Regardless of that, many of Roller Games' very best, like Ralphie, Judy (Sowinski) and Ronnie (Rains), are in the Roller Derby Hall of Fame. Their exploits and contribution to all of roller derby could not be ignored.

Nevertheless, in my opinion, you're not likely to find very many 'unbiased' accounts regarding Roller Games after 1973, especially when so many considered the sport dead with the death of Seltzer's Roller Derby. Besides, the idea of 'neutrality' is an illusion when put to the test of probably the most irrefutable source out there: Eyewitness accounts, and the people who can corroborate those accounts. Except for videotape evidence (of which there is plenty), the spectators and the participants themselves are the ones who can give an account of the history of Roller Games beyond 1975. I'm not from California; but I assume the author of this topic is. Once more, news clippings don't tell the story like those who were actually a part of it. That includes Scott Stephens, who was a member of the T-Birds when all of roller derby was scaled down in the late-1970s. And he is not the only one with a front-row seat to its history.

I have no problem at all with Stephens using the word 'legendary' to describe the T-Birds. He skated for them! He is a witness to the activities of what was already a legendary team by the time he arrived in Roller Games in 1978. He had to know that he was skating among legends and legends in the making.

At the same time, I have no problem with anyone who uses the word 'legendary' to describe the San Francisco Bay (City) Bombers. Anyone who saw Ann Calvello, Joanie Weston and Charlie O'Connell in action would testify to that. In fact, for anyone who knows even a small part of its history, the Bombers and T-Birds will be the first 2 teams they mention, before anything else.

And what of the videotaped 'witnesses' to the continuation of Roller Games beyond 1975? As I said, there is plenty. There are clips all over YouTube featuring Roller Games teams between 1975 and 1988. The Roller Derby Foundation has videos from the late-1970s and early-1980s that featured Roller Games teams. Even ESPN televised matches on occasion, until 1986. The only difference, between the league before and after 1975, is that following the recession they did not skate or travel as often, and the crowds were smaller. But they still managed to field teams and hold matches and championships, year after year, until 1988. [I won't even get into the TV version in 1989, or the 3 matches they had, between 1990 and 1993.]

Bottom line: The guy who started this topic had it right. Unlike Leo Seltzer's Roller Derby in 1973, Bill Griffiths' Roller Games did not die a hard death in 1975. It survived, although on a much smaller scale. Even Dave Lipschultz and his IRSL couldn't restore Seltzer's Roller Derby league, or all of roller derby, to the glory it had before 1975; yet it lasted 11 seasons (1977-1987). It will have to start from the ground up once again; and surprisingly, it may be the women's flat-track leagues that lead the way.

A post script: Given what I have read, all over the Web and even in some books, about the history of roller derby and its 2 biggest leagues, it seems that, once Leo Seltzer shut down his Roller Derby in 1973, he pretty much had or wanted nothing else or nothing more to do with it. He sold much of the rights to Bill Griffiths to make that point obvious. If I'm not mistaken, I thought I read somewhere that the Bay Bombers were still in operation even after Roller Derby ceased operations; that is, between 1974 and 1977.

As for Bill Griffiths, if he indeed shut down a major part of his Roller Games organization in 1975, he obviously, and by evidence, did not shut it all down. If he played any role at all in the continued operation of its teams after 1975 (rather than leave the players to run things on their own), then by that account, his organization did not shut down operations completely, the way Leo Seltzer shut down his. From what I understand, Griffiths only shut down his Eastern operation (in effect, the Philadelphia/Eastern Warriors were disbanded) and his international operation. If I'm not mistaken, I thought I read somewhere that the T-Birds had to move to another offsite training facility because Griffiths closed down or sold their original training site.

Griffiths played a huge role, he was on the track every season for the championship series, and appeared on screen to discuss certain league controversies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.201.188.178 (talk) 15:18, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Citations needed

Geniac reverted anonymous contributions from 63.164.145.198 because of lack of citations, and also, I'm guessing, because the same IP address was responsible for blanking an unrelated article earlier in the day. Besides adding citations for anything potentially contentious that's in the article already, we need to adhere to higher standards going forward. Please, when adding new material, cite your sources! Thanks! —mjb (talk) 03:02, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Lawsuit pending

There is a breach-of-contract lawsuit in progress, filed in January by Bill Griffiths, Jr. against Bob Sedillo (Pegasus Music Group). There is much discussion about it at David Sams' Web site www.rollergames.com. When last I looked, word had it that it may go to trial this coming spring. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CookyMonzta (talk • contribs) 19:37, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Report: Bob Sedillo has died

There is word from the roller derby fan site RollerFans.com that Bob Sedillo passed away on 29 November 2009, the details of which are not yet known. As for the litigation, I am still oblivious to the details for which the Griffiths family brought their suit against Sedillo (with the exception of perhaps a possible breach of contract or a violation of the terms of the change in ownership of the T-Birds), or the damages they were seeking; but what I am aware of, as of late, was that the Griffiths family won their lawsuit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CookyMonzta (talk • contribs) 07:48, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect details in the lede.

"Roller Games was the name of a sports entertainment spectacle created in the early 1960s in Los Angeles, California[1] as a rival to the Jerry Seltzer-owned Roller Derby league, which had enjoyed a monopoly on the sport of roller derby — and its name — since its inception in 1935."

This suggests that there was no other leagues besides Leo/Jerry Seltzer's NRDL (National Roller Derby League) between 1935 and 1961 and that Roller Games (or National Skating Derby) was the first other league to play such a game.

There were other "outlaw" leagues before NSD formed in 1961. Most notably the International Roller Speedway league played games across the U.S. and around the world back in the 1950s. It wasn't called "Roller Derby" due to trademark issues, same as Roller Games. It'd take a bit more research to get the full skinny on when IRS started/finished, but this link suggests it was in action in 1953. Original research here: I know a skater who skated with the International Roller Speedway in between tours with Leo Seltzer's Roller Derby. In any case, it's not quite correct that there was a monopoly (other than on the name) before Roller Games came along.

Outlaw leagues tended to come and go (some of 'em dying before playing a single game). But there probably were a good ten or twenty of them during the life of NRDL/IRDL. You can sometimes find the programs on eBay. TimBRoy (talk) 01:43, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

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