Talk:Roland TR-808/Archive 1

In the Air Tonight

Thought that Phil didn't use an 808 on 'In the Air Tonight' but a forerunner, such as the CR78? Sounds more like a CR to me. Please confirm. Si

Yeah, that's a CR-78, no question.--feline1 23:58, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

"$20-$50" my (b)ass

Without providing a source, the article states that "it was easy to buy a used machine for prices as low as $20–$50 in the early 1980s". It might have been outshone by sample based machines, but the 808 wasn't a failure on the scale of the 303. I call bullshit until evidence is forthcoming. Melaena (talk) 21:07, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I call bull shit on that too. It's hard enough to find people who don't know what they have now, much less when it was new.-Cisco KiiD

The TR-808's price bottomed out to $200 in early 1986; I remember BAM magazine (a free 1980s and 1990s magazine about music in the San Francisco Bay Area) running ads from music stores were selling the 808 at that price. TB-303s were about $50 or $60 (I almost got one, but alas only had $35; I wish I had $20 more that day; I got its sister the 606 for $60 at the same store a few years later) Samboy (talk) 06:49, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

"One of the earliest drum machines?"

Exactly how short a period of time is appropriate for a particular technology to be in existence to still be considered "new," or "early?" Roland's own first machine was released in 1967, a full thirteen years before the 808. Perhaps when this article is 100 or so years old, the statement might be more accurate with perspective. I wouldn't consider that very early from today's perspective. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.109.185.149 (talk) 03:28, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, after taking a short break to check further, Wikipedia's own history article on drum machines shows they have been around since 1930, a full fifty years before the 808. The 808 was certainly not one of the earliest. In my opinion, that should be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.109.185.149 (talk) 03:38, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Ah! Missed that "key" word, "PROGRAMMABLE." That does make a big difference. Disregard! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.109.185.149 (talk) 03:41, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Roland CR-5000

Does anyone have the stuff to write up Roland CR-5000? JFW | T@lk 03:07, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

non-volatile memory does not need to be "maintained"

Outkast

Should there be a note about the reference to the 808 in "I Like The Way You Move" by Outkast? "Cuz' I know y'all wanted that 808/can you feel that b-a-s-s bass?" mmaybe a note next to their listing under notable artists?

if you started listed every song or artist that mentioned the 808 in a song it the list would be around a hundred pages —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.252.150.142 (talk) 17:52, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Introduced when?

The article begins with "introduced in late 1980", but the rest of the article report on usage before 1980. Probably that was meant "introduced in late 1970"? (Liberatore, 2006). 17:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Rubbish, it was introdcued in 1980.--feline1 14:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

According to this SOS article it was launched in 1981 - not really what I would call "late 1980s". http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1997_articles/may97/rolandtr808.html --78.54.17.31 (talk) 07:04, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Fancruft removal

The "list of notable artists" is way too long and contains numerous non-notable artists who don't even have wiki articles. Pruning required!--feline1 12:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Total removal is not really 'pruning'. Unless there is an acceptable way to list references in lyrics (there are a lot of them!), I suggest to remove then all.--breutje

There back! Ok, I suggest to create a separate page of "references to the TR-808 in modern music". Could be a simple ordered list. We should only accept musicians with a wikipedia page and link to that page. State title (tribue) or lyrics line. Comments? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.148.218.254 (talk) 13:04, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Cowbell sample?

Everything I read about either the TR-808 or cowbells mentions the 'unique' sound or the TR-808's cowbell, but I've never actually heard a sample or part of a song using it. Any suppliers? --Evan Seeds (talk)(contrib.) 04:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not "unique", it's just the sound of a pair of detuned square waves. You can hear it prominently at the start of, erm, Whitney Houston's "I WAnna Dance with Somebody".--feline1 14:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

It's a pretty unique approach. I can't think of any other drum machines that make use of that approach. 'detuned' is not really accurate either. Detuned is usually applied to oscillators that are less than a semitone apart which is not the case in this circuit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.102.10 (talk) 03:50, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Entires by Jagged 85 are inaccurate. I worked with Roland R&D from 1978 (*) and used the TR808 on record before YMO ,as acknowledged by Roland. Jagged85 has sourced dates from a youtube posting.

(*) Verification : http://summit.sfu.ca/item/7720 page 270. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.240.246.155 (talk) 16:35, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Hudson Hawk21

User:Hudson Hawk21, will you please stop re-inserting your edits, which have been rejected by several editors. The material is so badly written it is verging on comical, it doesn't conform to fundamental policies such as WP:VER and WP:NPOV, and there already are some lines about the importance of the TR808 in hip hop in earlier paragraphs - if you feel this material should be expanded, it should be done there, not added as some random new paragraph. I see on your user talk page that you have already been censured for making egregious edits in another article. If you persist in this behaviour, you will doubtless soon find yourself blocked from editing by an admin.--feline1 (talk) 17:13, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, I'd like to add that I'm pretty sure Hudson Hawk21 is in danger of violating the three revert rule, if he hasn't already. --Evan Seeds (talk)(contrib.) 17:16, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

This incorrigable user is continuing to vandalise as sockpuppet User:PRINCETON007. --feline1 (talk) 18:47, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

VST versions

It's noted several times in the article that there are hundreds of attempts to sample the TR-808 sound - isn't it even part of the General MIDI specification (program 26, IIRC)? Perhaps we should link to one such software emulation, maybe in VST or soundfont format? I'm putting this on talk rather than being bold as I don't actually know of any to link to...

Also, might be nice if someone who actually owns one of these beasts could make a recording and upload it. It's always better to hear these things in context (I would but I don't own one!) Onesecondglance (talk) 10:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

---

Hi - I would be happy to upload some samples from my 808. How should I do this? If some-one emails me at: jujuspacejazzAThotmail.com with some pointers on how to upload some audio - I'd love to contribute. Just recently had my beautiful banging baby fixed and would love to spread the sub love... Regards - dan.

Beck

From "Hollywood Freaks":

Looking like jail bait/Selling lots of real estate/Looking like a hot date/Banging like an 808

If you need more refs.

Any song lyrics would count as a primary source, which is discouraged on Wikipedia. What we need is a secondary source, that is, a verifiable reference that talks about the TR-808 being mentioned in song lyrics. --Dachannien^Talk_Contrib 22:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Sir Mix-A-Lot

There should be a reference in the Notes from the song "My Posse's On Broadway" ...cause the 808 kick drum makes the girlies get dumb... Dre in l.a. (talk) 04:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Notes concerning appearances of "808" in songs - too many?

Most of the recent edits to this article have been to add Yet Another Song that mentions the TR-808 in its lyrics. Is this necessary, and is it encyclopedic? How many is too many? --Dachannien^Talk_Contrib 15:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

it's fancruft crap and should be pruned.--feline1 (talk) 17:08, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

whew I thought it was just me. i think it's hilarious that the only actual citations in this entire article are lyrics. We definitely don't need more than say 4 of the most popular and I'll do it myself if I remember tomorrow - RamdomWolf 198.96.34.35 (talk) 18:30, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Selling price

The article currently states that the 808 sells today for more than its original RRP, but that is slightly misleading as it completely ignores the effect of inflation on the price. The RRP was ~$1000, which is worth over $2800 today due to inflation. Typical selling prices (sayeth ebay) are well under $2000, so the 808 is much more affordable today than it was in 1980. 81.105.145.149 (talk) 09:59, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Spelling Error?

In Notes, point 11 says "to much" (instead of "too") - the Notes section is referenced from elsewhere "reflist", I don't know how to locate and edit it.

I'd just like to point out something in the Popular Media section

It mentions Kanye West's 808s & Heartbreak as having the 808 because he supposedly used a TR-808. With proof (I guess you could call it that) of him using a 909, wouldn't it make much more sense for the 808 to reference the area code of where he recorded part of (and mostly IIRC) the album? He recording in Honolulu, Hawaii, and the area code there is 808. Just sayin'. 97.96.245.71 (talk) 18:35, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

But think about it. 808 would be a good refference to HI, but it's called 808's. Used in the plural. Usually when the term 808 is used in plural it refers to either the actual machine or the slang that it's used for which is "The 808 sound" like "Piratin around just lookin for that 808, a perfect hit list, you gon hear, watch and wait."-Lil Wayne, New Orleans Nightmare. On a side note, I find it funny how many artists refer to the 808 when half of them probably think it's a bass note and not a machine.75.130.154.226 (talk) 13:37, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Family Force 5 References an 808 in their song "Earthquake" from their album "Business Up Front/Party In The Back" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.110.72.50 (talk) 18:06, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

What is a Name Check?

The article mentions that Madonna "Name Checks" this drum machine. Name check is some ridiculous hipster term that means that she mentions it in a song. People reading this article shouldn't have to learn a new language to understand its content. Re-write that statement or get rid of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.25.50 (talk) 22:25, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

VCA clarification

VCA is a voltage controlled amplifier look up on WIKI please — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.240.12.196 (talk) 21:17, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

808 State

I gather that this article used to include a long list of songs whose lyrics mentioned the 808, and I understand why that was removed. But shouldn't there at least be a mention of the band 808 State, a fairly significant techno artist whose name refers to the 808? --DougOrleans (talk) 05:03, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Marching Anteaters

I observe that a recent edit to this article removed the long-standing note that the TR-808 was originally compared to “marching anteaters.” I have restored this reference, since it’s reliably sourced. In addition to the original 1982 Keyboard Magazine reference, I have found two recent reliable sources stating that the TR-808’s sound was compared to “marching anteaters.”

Some commentary from someone who remembers that era of electronic music:

Right now, a used TR-808 costs more than a brand new Dave Smith Instruments Tempest Drum Machine, but it was not always that way. By the time the TR-808 came out in 1981, people have been hearing the squelches of various unrealistic drum machines for years; Rock Your Baby from 1974 starts off with a Rhythm Ace drum machine — Rhythm Aces were around since the 1960s. Indeed, Roland themselves released the fully programmable DR-55 (well, OK, only the kick, snare, and rimshot were fully programmable, but still) two years before the TR-808.

Meanwhile, Roger Linn made the LM-1 a reality in 1980. It was fully programmable before the TR-808, had a swing function that the TR-808 didn’t have and...it had samples that sounded like real drums (it wasn’t a sampler: changing the drum sounds required opening up the unit and replacing some of its chips)! This is very tired and true today, but this was a really big deal in 1981. There’s a reason more of the hit records from that year (Human League, Dare; Rod Stewart Tonight I’m Yours, etc.) used the LM-1 and not the TR-808. While the TR-808 finally gave us a fully programmable analog drum machine, its sound was nothing new. The LM-1 sounded a lot more like a real drummer and was on all of the hit records; it was the drum machine to have.

It is true that there were hits in that era that used the TR-808; Sexual Healing, of course comes to mind, and Tangerine Dream used it in their album Exit, but they were the exception in an era where any song with a drum machine was using a LM-1. Pretty soon, Roger Linn reduced the price by 40% with the just as functional (if not more functional) Linn Drum; Oberheim got on the Eprom drum machine bandwagon with the DM-X (I will name just one notable use of this classic: Blue Monday), soon followed by the Emu Drumulator, the Sequential Circuits Tom, the Korg DDR-110 Super Drums. Even Roland quickly hopped on the Eprom/sampled drum machine bandwagon, first with sampled hi-hats in the TR-909, followed shortly with the entire kit sampled in the TR-707 and TR-727 drum machine. In the mid-1980s, the market was flooded with sampled drum machines.

Meanwhile, the TR-808’s price was dropping like a rock. The majority of people making music wanted a drum machine that sounded, well, like a drummer (there was, as I mentioned before, some exceptions: Phil Collins from Genesis used it a lot. And some of the low-budget urban dance music makers were using 808s, possibly because it was what they could afford (Planet Rock, Clear, etc.), but even here, the DM-X was used whenever possible: Grandmaster Flash The Message or Herbie Hancock Rockit). By 1986, the TR-808 was already discontinued and being sold for $200.

It was only after every drum machine on the market was using samples that the TR-808 started climbing in value. It was $200 in 1986; but it was $1000 by 1989 (I remember reading an article from noted music writer Craig Anderton in Electronic Musician that anyone paying that kind of money for a non-sampled drum machine was paying far too much, considering how much more flexible digital was), with the AcidHouse and House Music craze causing the TR-808 to be king of the dance floor. Indeed, a large number of the 1987 #1 dance hits were driven by the TR-808.

The point being, the TR-808 was not a very popular unit when it came out. It took years, after Roland made their one-way trip to making everything digital, for its sound to catch on. Samboy (talk) 05:50, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

The article The Roland TR-808 and the Tale of the Marching Anteaters makes a good case that no one has ever directly compared the TR-808 itself to marching anteaters, only general analogue drum machines at the time, and that all the other articles merely repeat this initially bogus claim. ZoeB (talk) 14:51, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

That journal looks peer reviewed (and this article is more recent than the comment I made above), so I’ve added it as a ref. The “marching anteaters” line comes from an era when no one would publish something so unflattering and refer to a specific make and model, and Milano doesn’t remember exactly what he was thinking of when he penned that line — but yes, Kurt Werner’s case that it probably wasn’t the 808 is compelling. Keyboard did not review the 808, but did post a review of its little sister, the 606, where — as I recall — they said it has a distinct “Peter Gabriel” and “Genesis” sound. I should ask Kurt Werner to dig up the review they made of the 606 to get the exact quotation. Samboy (talk) 17:06, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Roland TR-808/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ritchie333 (talk · contribs) 16:13, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Every now again, my watchlist flashes up a new article to review at WP:GAN where I think "ooh, I've got to do that one", and this is one of those. I can't see any immediate reason to quickfail this, so I'm happy to give this a full review. From the outset, however, I'm concerned that for such a groundbreaking instrument, the article may be a little short, though not by much. Also, I notice you're not using this source from Keyboard magazine (AFAIK), which is where I originally learned the basics of the '808. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:13, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

• Thanks for this great source; in all my googling I didn't discover it (I think an earlier version of the article cited it but it didn't have an online source). Popcornduff (talk) 14:12, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

I was fortunate enough to have bought the original book some time back :-) Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:29, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Lead

• introduced by the Roland Corporation in 1980 - are you sure it's "the" Roland Corporation?
  • No idea. To me it's much more natural, and sources including Sound on Sound refer to it as such. On the other hand the official site doesn't. Happy to go with whatever you prefer, though if I were king of the universe I'd go with "the" and reflect what I suspect is its natural use by real human beings. Popcornduff (talk) 14:18, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Well if sources don't agree, I guess we can go with the status quo Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:29, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

• The infobox says "MIDI in/out" - I think this is factually incorrect; the correct term on an 808 is DCB, although it's mostly forwards compatible with MIDI.
  •  Done Yeah, that's something left over from an old version I didn't think to question. Popcornduff (talk) 14:15, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
• one of the most influential musical inventions of recent decades - I don't really like "recent decades". Can we say "one of the most influential inventions of popular music" or something like that? Also, I think the lead should mention its importance to dance music generally (as the body does)
  •  Done Though I had to delete "popular music" from the previous sentence to avoid repetition... Popcornduff (talk) 14:15, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Development

• they were not programmable and offered only preset patterns, typically bossa nova rhythms - this claim does not appear to be in the source given
  • The bossa nova thing was there, but I've shuffled the cites around in this sentence to hopefully make it a bit clearer. Popcornduff (talk) 16:48, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
• creating his own rhythms and wiring the device through his organ's expression pedal to accent the percussion - the source also mentions that nobody else was doing this at the time, which may be worth dropping in
  •  Done Popcornduff (talk) 14:12, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
• hired Lewis to help design the first programmable drum machine, the CompuRhythm CR-68, launched in 1978 - isn't the CR-68 just a cut-down version of the CR-78, released at the same time and much better known (not least by Phil Collins).
  •  Done Yep, fixed. Popcornduff (talk) 14:12, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Design and sounds

• The Keyboard Magazine source I mentioned earlier goes into some depth about the user interface design of the 808 and why the front panel was designed the way it was. I think this would be useful to include
  •  Done Though I haven't incorporated the information about "step programming" as I'm not sure exactly what it means or why it was different from the CR-78. (Note that I haven't used physical versions of either machine, so feel free to clarify here...) Popcornduff (talk) 14:12, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
• The machine is particularly noted for its powerful bass drum sound, built from a combination of a bridged T-network sine oscillator, a low-pass filter, and a voltage-controlled amplifier - I can't get the archived copy of the Sound on Sound source here to load (though none of the information looks obviously wrong)
  • Works for me... maybe just a hiccup? Popcornduff (talk) 14:48, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Probably Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:29, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Impact and legacy

• It was first used by the Japanese electronic group Yellow Magic Orchestra, on their 1980 track "1000 Knives" - minor nitpick but the source mentions the band but not the song
  • Annoyingly, I can't find a reliable source that mentions both facts, even though it seems to be the perceived wisdom. Unless you have any other ideas I'm inclined to just remove this. Popcornduff (talk) 16:53, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
    • @Ritchie333: Any thoughts about what to do here? Just delete? Popcornduff (talk) 12:55, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

No, I found another source that had it, and added that. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:55, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

• Gaye was drawn to the instrument as he could use it to create music without other musicians or producers - it was a bit more than that, he'd fled just about everything and holed in Belgium of all places in complete isolation, and that's why the 808 appealed as he could do everything himself.
  • I'm aware of the full story, but I'm not sure this article is the place to discuss Gaye's emotional problems or explain why he wanted to work alone, only that the 808 meant he could. Having said that I won't object if you think it's worth including. Popcornduff (talk) 14:12, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
• and popularized the 808 as a tool of "futuristic" sounds - the source goes a little further, it says it's "a fundamental element of futuristic sound"
  •  Done Popcornduff (talk) 14:31, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
• I can't get the openculture.com source to load, and what makes it a reliable source in the first place?
  •  Done Yeah, looks dead. Replaced with BBC source. Popcornduff (talk) 14:44, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
• Nine Inch Nails used the 808 to create "doomy menace" on the single "Closer", making the sound ubiquitous on North American alternative rock radio stations - this doesn't appear to be in the source given
  • It's there: " The 808 sound hits saturation levels on alternative-rock radio stations in North America when Nine Inch Nails main man Trent Reznor exploits its potential for doomy menace on the industrial-strength hit Closer." Popcornduff (talk) 14:37, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Ah okay, if the rewriting of the source text isn't obvious I tend to ask to be on the safe side Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:29, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

• A picture of Kayne West would be useful in this section, given his own article has a picture of the 808. File:Kanye West in the Studio.jpg could be used, though there isn't an 808 in shot.
  • Nice idea.  Done Popcornduff (talk) 14:31, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
• The 808 continues to be used in popular music and samples of its sounds are common in modern music software. - sourced, but I can't help thinking that (AFAIK) Logic Pro X does not appear to have a stock 808 emulator (as in something with an absolutely identical UI to the original machine, similar in concept to Logic's Hammond organ emulation which is brilliant), that this isn't quite true.
  • I don't understand. 1) Why would a single DAW not coming with 808 samples mean they're not common generally in modern software? 2) Why do you need it to have a full 808-style UI? That's not what the source is talking about. Popcornduff (talk) 14:12, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

It's more a discussion point than anything else. As you say, you have a good source that states the general fact, and I think that will do. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:29, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Summary

This is a well-written, interesting and (mostly) factually accurate article, and once the above comments have been addressed, I think this will meet the GA criteria. I'll put the review on hold now. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:25, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for this amazingly quick and thorough review. (You've done this before, haven't you?) I'm a little tight for time over the next few days, but I'll start addressing your concerns sometime in the next week. I look forward to it! Popcornduff (talk) 14:11, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

OK, I've responded to your points as best I can right now. Let me know what you think or if I missed anything. Thanks again for your feedback so far. Popcornduff (talk) 16:54, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Maybe I spoke too soon - I keep spotting things in the article I thought I'd changed; I seem to have lost some edits somewhere, possibly via a browser fart or connection drop or something. It's late now so I'll double-check it all tomorrow. Popcornduff (talk) 17:23, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

@Ritchie333: OK, I might have missed something, but I think everything's in place now. Popcornduff (talk) 12:16, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

I think everything's done, so I'm going to pass the review now. Well done. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:34, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Bitchin'. And thanks again for your work. Popcornduff (talk) 12:46, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

768 Measures

The article stated that each pattern could be up to 768 measures long. This wasn't supported by the referenced article ("...with 32 programmable patterns, a maximum of 768 measures, and 16 sounds...") because it obviously isn't so. A measure is a bar and the "768 measures" figure has to do with the maximum length of a complete rhythm track, not a single pattern. Edited the sentence accordingly. LuisCarloz (talk) 06:53, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Tea story

@Jtldlm: Hey. Do you have a source for this edit? Thanks. Popcornduff (talk) 12:25, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

TR-808 editing

The reason why I edited the English wiki page for the TR-808 is simply because the current article is not true, according to what I heard from Tadao Kikumoto himself every time I meet him in person; he was the leader of the TR-808 R%D team. The current article is being mis-interpreted from Japanese peculiar collectivism way of describing things which is way too complicated to comprehend by most Westerners.

I've been trying to correct the article according to the real story by Tadao himself, which I also uploaded to the RC-808; Re-Create the 808 webpage as the webmaster. There are plenty of media around the world who are happy to know this real stories from us. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vectorcriterion (talk • contribs) 20:34, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I moved the above comment here from my talk page.

We can't include your additions unless you attribute them to a reliable source (see WP:RS). The source you used doesn't, at first look, appear to meet standards for reliable sources. Perhaps you can provide some more information about it so other people can discuss it and reach a consensus.

Additionally, your username is similar to the website you cite, indicating a possible conflict of interest. Popcornduff (talk) 20:44, 22 October 2019 (UTC)