Talk:Rogan josh

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The two sections of the article present some what contradictory information. Someone with knowledge about the topic should fix it (Aryabhatt (talk) 18:11, 25 April 2012 (UTC)).

I removed the reference to the horse called Rogan Josh because this page is about the dish. If details of the horse warrant an article, the standard place to put it is in its own article, eg. Rogan Josh (horse), and then put a disambiguation tag on this page. Remy B 05:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

'Roghan' (روغن)means 'oil' in Persian and Urdu, and that seems a more likely origin for the first part of the name, given that red in Hindi & Urdu is 'Lal', and in Persian 'surkh' or 'qermez'. Sikandarji 08:04, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

......The rogan part alludes to the fat that features in the final dish, this is fat rendered from the lamb (actually goat or chimaera). Josh alludes to warming, as the spices used are said to have a 'warming effect' though this is spiritual rather than corporal. The dish can be made with onions/garlic or without when it is substituted with asafoetida instead, depending on religion of cooks and/or consumers. It has no tomato or fruit, just meat, yoghurt and spices, which include fennel seed (not aniseed which is not common in India) and dry ginger rather than fresh root ginger. It contains Kashmiri chillies, the true variety is medium hot, unlike the 'so-called Kashmiri chillies' which are non-pungent and wrinkled, these are grown in Karnataka and known as Byadgi chillies. Nearly all so-called Kashmiri chillies are of this type. .....Waaza 26 Jan 2007

Madhur Jaffrey's recipe and many others found on the internet omit the tomatoes. Google searches for "rogan josh tomato" and "rogan josh -tomato" suggest that tomatoes are not often included (27k vs 393k hits). Does anyone know what the story is on this? (Jaffrey's recipe is quite tasty, btw, although she tends to tone down the heat.) Steve Dunham 00:21, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Move to wikibooks cookbooks

the Recipe is more likely preferred on http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cookbook and a link to it from here —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.90.101.99 (talk) 09:56, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I suggest tomatoes are not part of this dish as these vegetables are seasonal in Kashmir, and only available in season. I also suggest fresh root ginger is not typical, for basically the same reason. Dried ginger and fennel powder are typical ingredients in Kashmiri cooking. Waaza 02 08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.5.39 (talk) 00:21, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

So something can't be an important ingredient in a particular dish... because it's seasonal? Eh? You know that basically applied to almost any fresh fruit or vegetable before the advent of vacuum packing and refrigeration, right? Especially in warmer regions? That would basically mean any dish which features a certain fruit or vegetable as a signature ingredient now needs to be redefined in terms of everything EXCEPT that, because there would have been some part of the year where they wouldn't have been available, same as tomatoes only appearing in summer... 80.189.14.215 (talk) 19:30, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

tomatoes

I second the fact that tomatoes aren't generally part of the recipe. I'll see if I can lay my hands on my fam's version later. I think that when we make lamb using tomatoes, it's usually called tomater meat. Also, I'm not sure what the wiki-policy is about including recipes with articles about dishes (and I'm not about to look it up right now), but I bet the suggestion about moving it to wikibooks is the right idea. Hopefully I'll find some time to put some work in on this soon. — gogobera (talk) 05:51, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Well obviously in antiquity it didn't, as tomatoes are an American fruit, but Indian cuisine has widely adopted the tomato and potato. I just bought a jar of rogan josh sauce from the store and it had tomatoes. (very effing good by the way). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.70.113 (talk) 00:59, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Don't forget the coconuts... not sure, but I have a feeling they're not native to India / Pakistan & environs either. 80.189.14.215 (talk) 19:31, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Tomatoes

I am in full agreement that tomatoes are not part of rogan josh. In kashmir tomatoes cooked with meat or vice-versa irrespective of the spices, coloring or cooking time is simply called "tomato-meat" or in kashmiri language "Ruwangan-maaz" and not rogan josh. Rogan josh is a classical kashmiri dish that even kashmiri households can't master to the degree that has been perfected by the kashmiri chefs "Waza's". As for my source of the above stated info-Kashmiri culture.

I too have succumbed to a tinned preparation from a UK store, I was delighted that I will enjoy kashmiri food but in vain when I read the ingredients highlighted tomatoes. And it didn't even taste like the kashmiri tomato-meat, not to mention rogan josh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aby005 (talk • contribs) 20:17, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Wait... if you generally cook meat with tomatoes together, and put them into a Rogan Josh curry, does that therefore mean that tomatoes ARE a valid part of the recipe? Merely not a *defining* part of that particular dish, UNLESS it's the sole Kashmiri representative within a wider range of dishes which themselves are short on the toms? I'm not 100% certain what you're trying to say here. But I don't think I've ever had one, whether cooked from a jar or in a restaurant (or, heck, following a recipe), which wasn't fairly heavy with them. It actually seems to be one of the defining features on some broader-pantheon restaurant menus.

Also when you say "tinned" I hope you mean "made largely from scratch but with the aid of a glass jar of cooking sauce" (which, note well, doesn't contain any meat of its own). There are few things nastier than tin-can curry, except MAYBE dog food (and, certainly, tinned meatballs!)... 80.189.14.215 (talk) 19:25, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

I know this was a long time ago, but I have no idea why you made this edit [1] since nothing the OP said came close to suggesting tomatoes are always cooked with meat when both are available. AFAICT, the OP was simply saying that while tomatoes are sometimes cooked with meat in Kashmiri cuisine, it's never part of, or called rogan josh. Instead it's simply called something akin to tomato-meat. In fact, the OP didn't really give any indication how common these 2 pairings are other then the fact it's common enough that there is a name and there are variants on the theme. This doesn't seem to be a particularly improbable claim. Plenty of recipes end up being fairly different from those where they originated from. Bolognese sauce is an obvious example. And just because an ingredient is used in some cuisine doesn't mean it's used in all dishes. Baked beans and sausages may be a part of British cuisine, but it doesn't mean sausage rolls normally contain baked beans. Nil Einne (talk) 18:16, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Rogan Josh, gee, gravy juice

Why do a lot if Indians say that clarified butter means Gee not rogan josh? And why do they say that rogan josh means gravy juice? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MironGainz (talk • contribs) 11:24, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Definition incorrect

It may be that the term comes from the verb jušidan (جوشيدن) meaning "to boil". It is not correct to say that "Rogan josh thus means cooked in oil at intense heat". "Boil" and "intense heat" are not the same.Royalcourtier (talk) 06:27, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Etymology

There are three or four competing etymologies for this dish. Clearly some of these must be folk etymology, but all of them are given in printed sources, so I have tried to reflect this in the article, including the sources. (Some books in the past few years seem to have simply copied their information from Wikipedia).

A few texts also claim the name is just derived from "ratanjot" or "ratan jot", i.e. dried alkanet, the main colouring agent used in the past. Svejk74 (talk) 15:39, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Roghan, Roughan, روغن in Farsi and Urdu

It just means oil/fat in farsi and urdu and can specifically refer to butter in Farsi — Preceding unsigned comment added by HussaynKhariq (talk • contribs) 11:55, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Etymology should be local not western

It may be tempting for users who are not fluent in Indo- Iranian languages to look for pronunciation similarities and assume that Rogan is similar to rouge in French meaning red and Josh is similar to juice, but anyone who is familiar with the geographical and historical origin of this Kashmiri dish would refer to the local language in which Rogan means oil or grease and josh means to boil. There are many other dishes with similar names such as Kalleh Joosh. Roghan Joosh is about braising meat in oil and then boiling it and the name literally outlines the cooking process. HereContribute (talk) 22:24, 12 November 2023 (UTC)