Talk:Rodrigues starling

Reconstruction, relationships of Fregilupus etc

See Sturnia. For a reconstruction, it is presently most warranted to merge the body form of Fregilupus, Sturnia sinensis, Sturnia malabarica and perhaps Leucopsar (too highly arboreal?). The skull/beak must be taken as template (do not forget horny sheath) and the limb proportions too. Then adapt the generalized "Sturnia" (of the old definition) color pattern to the description of Tafforet. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 18:00, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I made this sketch based on your description and the skull image in the article.[1] How do you think I could improve it? I did not add a crest, since Julian Hume has left one out of his restoration.[2] The colouration was based on this:[3] FunkMonk (talk) 01:50, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Tafforet's full description

It's in the public domain, and pretty much all we know about the bird is from this, so why not quote it on the page in full? I'll add Alfred Newton's translation, I can't see any reason to object to it, but please do, if it's an issue. FunkMonk (talk) 20:59, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

I would link to Alfred Newton's original work instead to the citation in Cheke & Hume --Melly42 (talk) 22:38, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

The book doesn't give a citation beyond that it was by Newton, so I don't know where it was published... Perhaps he never actually published it? FunkMonk (talk) 23:21, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Newton cited Tafforet's original description in his article Additional evidence as to the Original fauna of Rodrigues Published in the Proceedings of the Zoological Society of London (1875) p 41: [4] --Melly42 (talk) 23:49, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, it doesn't seem to contain the translation, but there is a mention of a future publication by Milne-Edwards, but Newton of course couldn't cite it proactively, heheh... FunkMonk (talk) 23:59, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

I believe it is found in "Alfred Newton 1875 Additional Evidence as to the Original Fauna of Rodriguez". FunkMonk (talk) 14:05, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Good article?

Seems like this could be a good article, with some modifications? It seems very long for such a badly known bird, might there be synthesis in the text, of sources that do not particularly mention this species? FunkMonk (talk) 12:00, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, it would be good to rewrite the outdated section --Melly42 (talk) 13:34, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Which one? It seems to make clear that it is now seen as a starling, and then give an overview of the older classification history. FunkMonk (talk) 14:07, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, I don't know if the outdated template should stay in the article --Melly42 (talk) 16:53, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

• There's a bit too much information from sources that don't even mention the bird, I'll have to clean this up before a nomination. FunkMonk (talk) 21:25, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Binomial authority

It is somewhat strange that H. H. Slater has been removed as binomial authority (contra IUCN assessment) --Melly42 (talk) 06:16, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

He did not write the publication, so it does not seem he would count as the authority by modern standards. He is not credited in the relevant books (both versions of "Extinct Birds"). Günther and Newton credited him for inventing the name, but again, the publication is what counts. The name came from Slater's personal notes, but was therefore a nomen nudum until published by Günther and Newton, and therefore they are the authority. FunkMonk (talk) 06:32, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, Slater provided the name and the notes which were important for Günther's and Newton's description, so I think it is relevant to include Slater among the describers (at least for the genus authority) --Melly42 (talk) 07:31, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, in the prose at least, but per modern nomenclatural conventions, he doesn't count as the authority for the scientific name. The IUCN seem to be following Günther and Newton's 19th century whim, from before these conventions were even established. But all the modern books I have looked at credit only Günther and Newton as authority. There is a big difference between making up a name and publishing it, at least when it comes to the rules. For a very recent example (yesterday!) see Nasutoceratops. It was first named in a 2010 thesis where Lund was sole author, but it was not properly published until 2013, so that's what counts, and Sampson is now first author. FunkMonk (talk) 07:46, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

What do you say to the fact, that Günther & Newton state Slater as authority for Necropsar rodericanus in their paper Extinct Birds of Rodriguez (1879)? Source

I addressed that when I mentioned "Günther and Newton's 19th century whim". Authors cannot cite unpublished work as a taxonomic authority. But back inthose days, the standards were much less clear. But new standards work retroactively, however, which makes those old discrepancies invalid. FunkMonk (talk) 07:49, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Pvmoutside seems unwilling to discuss this. Yes, some bird websites may use the original, erroneous attribution, but the opinion of modern sources (Hume, Walters, and Fuller) should carry more weight than those. FunkMonk (talk) 12:12, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

• This recent paper[5] confirms that Slater's notes were never published, so it is against accepted practices to credit him rather than the authors of the paper. There is more detail about the situation in Hume 2014, where he credits "Günther & Newton, (ex Slater MS)" for the name. So not sure what Birdlife is on about. FunkMonk (talk) 02:03, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I fear that this is not entirely correct. ICZN 50.1.1. However, if it is clear from the contents that some person other than an author of the work is alone responsible both for the name or act and for satisfying the criteria of availability other than actual publication, then that other person is the author of the name or act. So, it all depends on the actual contents of Slater's notes. If these contained some traits used by Günther and Newton to distinguish the taxon, the correct attribution would be Slater per Günther & Newton, 1879.--MWAK (talk) 10:38, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Hard to say, though, as Slater's original notes aren't published for comparison, so we would need some authority to do this. FunkMonk (talk) 11:44, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

I have added vide Slater to the binomial authoriy, pending other users views. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:36, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

I think we need to follow how the sources do it, but they seem to disagree on it. FunkMonk (talk) 23:39, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Rodrigues starling/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sainsf (talk · contribs) 15:34, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I shall review your article. Of course, I know you are an excellent writer here, and this one too is very interesting. I would suggest the following improvements (which are not shortcomings) to enhance the quality so that it becomes a perfect GA:

Lead

• Mascarene island of Rodrigues I see this is located in the Republic of Mauritius. Could you please add the country's name just after Rodrigues for easy identification of the area?

Maybe a bit iffy here, the bird went extinct before any country had claimed the island, and the bones were found when the island was ruled by Britain, so it seems a bit retroactive to include it as part of Mautirius, which has little to do with this bird? It only became so relatively recently, 1968. FunkMonk (talk) 16:01, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't know that. It's OK as it is, then. Sainsf <^>_{Talk all words} 16:13, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• The bird was first reported by a sailor who was marooned on the island in 725–1726 In the next section you give the name of the sailor, but not that he is a sailor, and in the lead you say he is a sailor but do not add his name. I would suggest you wrote "French sailor Julien Tafforet" in both places.

Fixed.

• After reading "Extinction", I think you could add a bit to the lead like this : "Introduced rats, that caused a fall in the availability of food for the starling, were probably responsible for its extinction some time in the 18th century, first on mainland Rodrigues, and finally on Île Gombrani, its last refuge."

I think it was due to predation on eggs rather than lack of food, I'll add this. FunkMonk (talk) 16:05, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Taxonomy

• Do you really think marooned needs a link? It is rather a common English word.

.Removed.

• on Rodrigues 9-month ---> on Rodrigues for nine months.

Fixed. FunkMonk (talk) 15:56, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• "Starling" linked twice (see lead)

Removed. FunkMonk (talk) 15:56, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• These consisted of the cranium, mandible, sternum, coracoid, humerus, metacarpus, ulna, femur, tibia, and metatarus of several individuals this line appears to contain several terms difficult to be understood by the layman. Could we have some links here? Scientific description in the next line may also be linked.

Fixed first times, will add more. FunkMonk (talk) 15:56, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• thereby creating a junior synonym what does junior synonym mean?

Is a link enough? FunkMonk (talk) 16:33, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Link passerine and generic separation (perhaps to genetic divergence).

Linked to genus, as that is what generic refers to. FunkMonk (talk) 16:33, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Masauji Hachisuka is a redlink, so you should give his identity yourself. Same for Graham S. Cowles and Strahm.

I introduced the two first ones, and removed Strahm, he is inconsequential. But shouldn't the rest of the names mentioned have similar instructions as well? FunkMonk (talk) 16:33, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Good work. Even a link would have done, but adding the identity is better. Sainsf <^>_{Talk all words} 02:47, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

• and most authors find Tafforet's bird to be identical to the one described from subfossil remains I hope "most authors" does not sound vague.

"Modern authors" perhaps? FunkMonk (talk) 15:46, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Done. Sainsf <^>_{Talk all words} 16:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Description

• Description is very fine, but the last paragraph needs conversion templates.

Yep, will try, I'm very slow at those... FunkMonk (talk) 16:33, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• British and American English is used at different places. Though not a strict requirement for GAN, the issue of uniformity in the usage of English might be raised in FAC (for example at places you write colouration (BE) and in other places center(AE)).

Dang, must be leftovers from the old version of the article. Where for example, so I know what to look for? I tried to make it BE. FunkMonk (talk) 15:51, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

OK Mr. Blitzkrieg, you've already fixed it! :D Sainsf <^>_{Talk all words} 16:24, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

That's it. Looking forward to your comments. Sainsf <^>_{Talk all words} 15:34, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, I'll fix these issues soon. FunkMonk (talk) 15:45, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Great! You are awesomely fast! Let me reply in a couple of minutes, please wait. Sainsf <^>_{Talk all words} 16:11, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Four issues to go! Sainsf <^>_{Talk all words} 16:27, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I have to log out presently, I hope you will have all the issues resolved the next time I come. Sainsf <^>_{Talk all words} 16:32, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Seeing that you have resolved all these issues at a speed no less than a blitzkrieg, I reward your article with GA status. Congrats! Sainsf <^>_{Talk all words} 02:49, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

And blitzkrieg pass, thanks! FunkMonk (talk) 17:04, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

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File:Necropsar rodericanus.jpg

FunkMonk, is the description on this image wrong? I do not understand the difference between holotype and syntype. But it would be nice if we had consistency between the file description and the caption on the Main Page: Wikipedia:Today's featured article/April 3, 2020. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 22:01, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for pointing that out, I have now clarified it in my latest edit. I think the inconsistency arose because I was actually expanding this article before a lectotype was designated among the syntype bones in a 2014 article. Feel free to suggest if it still needs clarification. FunkMonk (talk) 22:38, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Main image

Congrats everyone on getting this article to Featured Article level, I very much enjoyed reading it. Thinking of this from a casual reader's perspective, I wonder if the current image (used in the taxobox and by extension as a header in mobile apps) is the most appropriate and if the restoration image (File:Rodrigues Starling.jpg) wouldn't be more appropriate as an illustration.--DarTar (talk) 23:42, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps for TFA, but I think it's a bit too late in the game to change it now, isn't the next TFA due in like ten minutes? But as for the main taxobox image, we should use the least speculative image we've got, which is the fossils themselves. FunkMonk (talk) 23:52, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

@FunkMonk: Not questioning this, but can you explain the rationale of we should use the least speculative image we've got? Is there any applicable guideline/policy? Given that the taxobox image is effectively used as a snippet on all link hovers and app cards and headers i.e. as the first thing casual readers will see when they are interested in reading more about the topic, prior to visiting the article, I feel this should be the best high-level illustration of the topic, not necessarily the most reliable scientific image related to the topic from the literature. In those contexts, in particular, the image is used without caption, which makes it harder to understand without context. I don't have access to Hume (2014) but if your adaption is close enough to the original I feel it would do a great job as a main image. My 2 cents. --DarTar (talk) 19:13, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Well, I guess that's a matter of philosophy. On Wikipedia, verifiability trumps everything else, and the specimens themselves are the facts when it comes to dealing with extinct animals that have left no complete remains. We did work out a guideline at the paleontology project that states skeletons should taker precedence over restorations in taxoboxes, for that reason. You can compare the image with Hume's illustrations of the bird here:[6][7] But since they are speculative, and even contradict each other in some ways (the second shows yellow on the rump and around the eye not mentioned in the old account), I wouldn't even use those as the main image. They are best guesses, yes, but they would also mislead the reader into thinking we know more than we do. Which is also why, even though I drew the image used in the article, and therefore am convinced it follows all the available sources, I'd prefer to show the fossils. FunkMonk (talk) 23:54, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

@FunkMonk: I can see that, thanks for the additional context.--DarTar (talk) 03:26, 7 April 2020 (UTC)