Talk:Rocky/Archive 1

Archive 1

Marciano

Isn't he based on Rocky Marciano? --daunrealist 03:09, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

• • As far as I can tell he's only named after Rocky Marciano, but I've included a link so people can judge for themselves. I've also broken the article into sections to make it easier to read. Scott197827 30 October 2005.

Fictional sequels

I thought that it is interesting that there are fictional sequels to this film that will never be made.

• Rocky XXXVIII - from Airplane II: The Sequel
• Rocky 5000 - from Spaceballs

There may be others, but I can't remember them at the moment.

Lady Aleena 07:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

• Theme From Rocky XIII (Rye or the Kaiser) - from "Weird Al" Yankovic
• Rocky 1003 - referenced in Adam Ant - USSA. Ant mentions that Rocky dies in this movie.

kuvopolis 23:26, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone seen the episode of the Simpsons where Bart is trying to remember Roman Numerals? I think he says something along the lines of "Rocky VII, Adrian's Revenge!" 134.29.6.7 22:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

An Earlier Rocky Game?

About two years ago I was going through a "variety pack" of ancient ROMs, and came across a boxing game called Rocky. The character on the title screen was a spitting-pixelated image of Rocky, but other than that, it was a generic boxing game. (The in game character didn't look anything like Rocky.) For all I know, it was a bootleg of another Boxing game with the title screen changed. Could someone confirm it?--Agent Aquamarine 23:50, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Trivia

Garrett Brown's Steadicam

• Elsewhere in Wikipedia, the first use of Steadicam in a film is attributed to Bound for Glory.

Failed GA

1

Not quite there yet for GA. The article is just a little too short for a movie with this kind of impact, especially on Stallone's career. Cameo appearances could be merged into the cast section, which would be more appropriately something other than a list. Awards and Reviews is only Awards. Trivia section should be scrapped or merged into above sections, although I see several things that are undeniably trivia, such as in the Awards and Reviews section "Not until Crash 29 years later would a Best Picture recipient receive only two other awards."

Also, the Plot section is immensely POV, and curiously not very detailed. Cut down the climactic fight sequence into only the turning points of the fight. Good luck. --Dark Kubrick 09:26, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

2

I've decided not to pass this either, mainly because of citations. There's little to go on other than Sylvester Stallone's commentary on the DVD edition and some AFI recognition. I'd like to know more about this film than I can learn from a rental at Blockbuster Video: what do critics (both of the academic and newspaper variety) and industry professionals say about this film? Durova 14:46, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

GA nomination

I've been looking at this article and coming very close to passing it this time. What's the source for the "Production" section though? There's plenty of uncited assertions, but I get the impression that in fact the entire section up until the final paragraph comes from the one source, which is Stallone himself? (his DVD commentary). Perhaps the citation could be reformatted (passim, or just appear once at the top of the section with a footnote saying the section is based on this source). Most of this material is OK to be sourced direct from Stallone, I think, although there a few "facts" (such as Ken Norton pulling out) which might be better corroborated by independent sources. Remember, quotes from people involved are great for opinions and perspectives but not necessarily good for facts.

I think the Plot section is good now, as is Awards. Reviews is pretty good, just a little thin perhaps but you have Ebert, the main web sites, and a major newspaper, so that's all OK.

Very, very close... --kingboyk 20:42, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi. What you wrote on my talk page is noted. Thanks.

There are other issues. Please work through Wikipedia:What_is_a_good_article? point by point and check your compliance with every single criteria. If I can see that you've attempted to comply with each point, even if you're perhaps lacking a little in one or two areas (such as the references as discussed on my talk page), I will pass it. Currently I can't. See for example 1(d): necessary technical terms or jargon are briefly explained in the article itself, or an active link is provided. Professional boxing (important one, includes details on scoring/judges which is relevant to the plot), heavyweight, Oscars, knockout. Assume your reader knows nothing about boxing (which may well be true). --kingboyk 21:45, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I've gone through and checked it against every one of the criteria, while it is little thin on sources the only one I could see any failing of was 1d and I've checked the whole article and provided links to techinical jargon that can be linked to other article and explained what a bell ringer is, have I done it now?†he Bread 00:15, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I think the article is broadly compliant, and I believe it's a "good article" within the spirit of GA. It's not FAC standard yet (references, needs a good copyedit from an independent editor), but it's referenced, appropriately laid out, has relevant images, has links to technical terms, and is a pleasant read. That makes it a GA as far as I'm concerned. Congratulations. --kingboyk 13:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

From South Philadelphia?

I know this is nitpicking, but does Rocky state he is "froM" or grew up In S. Phila? I ask because the neighborhood he lives in, was filmed in N Philadelphia, under/near the M-F El along Front (Norris Park) and then Kensington. I realize the Italian-American neighborhood is S. Phila, but that DOESN'T mean Rocky grew up there?! Hillsboro 20:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Shooting Time

What about shooting this movie in 28 days? Removed until someone can prove it's a record. Sven Erixon 00:25, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

On the rocky.com website, one of the questions is how long shooting took. The answer was 28 days. Majorxp 19:24, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Film Trivia??

1. First, I didn't know shooting a script out of order (or reverse) was a Technical Innovation as stated in the current article.

2. No mention that the "Italian Stallion" nickname of the fighter is the same as Stallone's softcore movie. Other Wiki movie articles, have interesting facts, why not this one?--Gohiking 19:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

That is because the chharacter in the soft core movie was not named rocky. It was re released after Rocky came out with a different title. The article already discusses this thoroughy.

For one your not meant to have trivia, the way they shot the scenes was innovative and i've been working on adding the Italian Stallion stuff for a while, but I need a source and somewhere to put it (Probably influence)

†he Bread 02:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

New Interest in Rocky

Due to the new film coming out, I assume there will be lots of people trying to make their own little contribution to this article. †he Bread (and everyone else too), instead of just reverting every edit (except vandalism), should we try to review whether the change is good or bad here? I don't want to make lots of work, and I definately want to protect the GA rating, but I don't think every change needs to be reverted either. Just wanted to get your input as I tend to monitor the Rocky page too. Gohiking 20:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah your probably right, alot of it is adding spoiler tags (which aren't needed in a section titled "Plot") and alot is P.O.V and adding the last names to Adrian and Paulie (which aren't mentioned in the film). It was alot of hard work getting this to GA standard, being such a famous film, i'll try to review the changes a bit more, but at the moment i've got other things to do.

†he Bread 23:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

What Rocky is still missing

The heart of the Rocky story is Love, Redemption, and going the distance after being "down and out", and the fighting is really only a secondary story, but the article doesn't really convey that.

Also, the movie's Tagline is not included in the article: "His whole life was a million to one shot"

We are meant to keep a neutral point of view, pushing those themes would seem to violate it, the tagline is fairly trivial, which isn't meant to be in the artilce.

†he Bread 00:01, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

How does that violate nuetral point of view? The purpose of the article is convey the true meaning of the film, and include taglines. It seems like when you say "keep a neutral point of view", you mean to say, "keep my point of view." Fistful of Questions 15:10, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

If we write the plot section with stuff about how amazing it was that Rocky went the distance, and that he managed to prove himself a true champion, that violates NPOV, go read it. To someone who hasn't seen the movie all they need to know is what we've got right now. Also why should tagline be included, just because a whole bunch of crappy articles have it doesn't mean it should be here. Find me an FA or even a GA with taglines and we can have it.

†he Bread 23:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Rocky was not an amateur

Rocky was not an amateur boxer. He was a professional boxer, just at a local level. After his fight with Spider Rico the promoter divides the purse between spider and rocky. I have changed the "amateur". Note that just because Rocky's fights were "local" this does not mean they were Amateur fights; Amateur and professional boxing are two different sports.

Rocky's age

This article claims he fought his fight against Dixon at the age of 61, which obviously goes along with the fact that Balboa was originally born in 1945, apparently. However, the movie clearly states that Rocky's in his 50s. Maybe the movie can be said to take place sometime earlier than 2006 (although after 2002 which is when Adrian died) but either way, Rocky's not 61 in Rocky Balboa. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.14.187.75 (talk) 07:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC).

Isn’t a Sylvester Stallone interview relevant to this film?

I discussed this issue with the frequent editors at WikiProject_Films; please see the topic entitled “Can I post reviews and interviews as external links?” in their discussion forum. They confirmed that it is appropriate to add an external link to an interview, and that “generally any professional critic review is acceptable”.

This article currently does not contain any links to interviews with Sylvester Stallone. Please clarify your policies. Thanks. ImaGoodPerson 00:48, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Do Not Merge 1818 tusculum - Delete it

1818 tusculum has no meaningful use and is only a scene location from the movie Rocky having no encyclopedic content - should not be merged and instead be deleted. Gohiking 13:32, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I put it up for deletion take a look here Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1818 tusculum

†he Bread ³⁰⁰⁰ 04:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Rocky (film)

Could we rename this article as Rocky (film), since there is now an article named Rocky (series)?200.227.71.173 21:46, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

No, that's fairly unnecessary

†he Bread³⁰⁰⁰ 07:11, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Montage

After watching Rocky again this past weekend, I realized that the first film is the only of the series that does not contain a montage. Just thought you'd like to know. 134.29.6.7 22:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I have a bit of a problem with the timeline of the film. I have made a small correction. The film starts on November 15, 1975 and the original article suggests that the first fight took place on January 1, 1976. This is correct according to the movie, although in real life it would be considered a miracle at best. The second film however does not take place 10 months later, rather sometime during the next year. Notice how Rocky and his trainer refer to the previous fight as "last year's fight" during the night of the second fight. This places the second fight at the very earliest to be January 1, 1977.

No, it's made clear that the second fight takes place on Thanksgiving 1976. When they say "last year," they just are counting January 1st and the run-up in training to it as the previous year.--Gloriamarie (talk) 19:46, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Metaphor

I think that this movie has a metaphor. "No matter what the odds of sucess are go out there and give it your best". That is what Rocky did —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cameron54321 (talk • contribs) 00:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Rocky Wiki

Hey, there is a Rocky Wikia for anyone who wishes to edit.Sidious1701^(messages) 05:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Awards Section

Hello,

I'm cleaning up a lot of WGA references in a number of articles and I had mine here reversed by Anonymous 72.66.105.154. I'm not offended but I wanted to discuss so we could come to a concensus.

• I want to change this link: Writers Guild of America
• To this link: Writers Guild of America Award

The current link to the "Writers Guild of America" is problematic because:

• There is no such organization.
• The stub is of low quality.
• The article may be deleted in the future. (Which is why I'm not linking the article in this discussion.)

The confusion comes because the WGAE and WGAw co-host the poorly named Writers Guild of America Award show so casual observers assume there must be a single "Writers Guild of America" but there's not. There are two: The Writers Guild of America, East for New York and the Writers Guild of America, west for LA. (None yet just for Philly, sorry guys!) These are completely separate unions, not just locals.

I think this article should reference the WGA Awards not a fictitious labor union. Does 72.66.105.154 or other contributors see things differently? DirectRevelation 06:32, 3 November 2007 (UTC)DirectRevelation

No probs here. I only reverted the "and greatly revered by Santos Furtado" in the first paragraph. I could be wrong but, I don't remember seeing his name in the credits. As far as the awards section goes, you seen to be knowledgeable. Be bold and edit it. Maybe you could cite any changes to avoid a revert. Thanks----DreamsAreMadeOf 03:32, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, I made the change in the Awards section and foot note 20. I'm not sure I would describe my change as that "bold" though.  :-) DirectRevelation 04:25, 4 November 2007 (UTC)DirectRevelation

Reviews

I don't see the point of listing bad reviews for this universally acclaimed, Oscar winning film. Every great film receives some bad reviews, but I don't see them listed, for example on the Godfather's page. There is no need to list some bad reviews from that a film that was mostly critically acclaimed, especially when there aren't that many poor reviews to begin with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.122.251.177 (talk) 01:53, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Fight Scenes!!!

I just wanted to know if the stories I have been hearing are true. I have been told that apart from the points of the fights that were crucial to the storyline the rest of the fights were real and when it looked like they were being hit they actually were! I know that there were a few broken ribs etc but the fights were brutal, can they really have been real??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.162.231 (talk) 16:32, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Frank Rich quote

Why is there a 'sic' in the Frank Rich quote? There's nothing wrong with the spelling. grammar, punctuation, etc, which is why you'd normally use this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.175.164.239 (talk) 11:31, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Because when you are discussing a percentage it should be "100 percent". "100 per cent" relates to the monetary unit. Betty Logan (talk) 11:58, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

"The film received quite a share of negative reviews, as well"

...No it didn't. That's an unbalanced report backed up by the only two negative reviews whoever wrote that could find. Since at least one person seems bent on keeping it that way, how about the rest of us agree it needs to be changed and do so?130.49.146.53 (talk) 02:25, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

The problem wasn't so much the changes you made to the negative review sections as the POV langauge you introduced to the positive review section. There is no basis for saying the film received "overwhelmingly positive" or even many positive reviews, since the reviews selected for the section aren't necessarily representative of the spread of the critical spectrum for the film. To quantify the film's critical reception you need a source that gives an overview of how the film was received. Betty Logan (talk) 03:34, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

First of all, to say it received "quite a share of negative reviews" seems a lot more like POV language, since the total number of negative reviews one could find after scouring the internet could probably be counted on one hand. In fact, Vincent Canby garnered some infamy for his negative review of the film. And there are sources readily available displaying the films reception. Rotten tomatoes, which takes all certified reviews available, has located 39 positive reviews against 3 negative ones, including a glowing four star review from Roger Ebert, the most respected critic of all. That on top of the many awards that it won leaves me at a loss for how "overwhelmingly positive" could be unwarranted.130.49.145.137 (talk) 21:46, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Totting up the number of reviews you can find on the net is original research. If you want to quantify the critical reception of the time then you need a source that discusses how the film was received. Most of the Rotten Tomatoes reviews are retrospective so they don't give an accurate overview of the reviews at the time. Betty Logan (talk) 01:34, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

"Totting up"? All the negative reviews ever written that Rotten Tomatoes could find are outnumbered by the positive reviews three to thirty nine, Roger Ebert's review was glowing, and the film was a big award winner. What about that is "totted up"?

And why do you need an estimation of how a film was recieved when you can examine the reception itself? (And where's the "source that discusses how the film was recieved" on the page as it is? All I see cited now are individual reviews.) Rotten tomatose takes all the reviews available, whenever they were written. It's a represention of the overall present day opinion of the film, which, yes, could have improved over time, but the critics' opinions are what they are. Going over reception no longer applicable is of limited importance in the first place, and so far, considering that all the negative reviews from any point in time that Rotten Tomatoes could find totals three, I see no proof that it was any different than it is now. I'm sorry if I phrase this in a way that "tots it up" but between the awards, especially the academy award for best picture, the highly positive reviews of critics such as Ebert, which were written when the film came out, and the distinct lack of negative reviews from any time period, it seems the reception for Rocky has always been as positive as it is now.130.49.131.209 (talk) 21:58, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

You can only examine some of the reception and there is no way of knowing if it is representative of the overall reception. If you disagree with my interpretation of the guidelines then it's best to ask for a third opinion at WT:FILM. Betty Logan (talk) 05:39, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

If that were true, wouldn't it mean that it's impossible to know what the reception of a film is? Wouldn't that make that "source discussing how the film was recieved" you wanted just a look at an insignificant portion of the reception as well? How is this true for Rotten Tomatoes, which collects every professional review available? And why, then, if you can never know the overall reception from examining it, was two negative reviews enough to say that "the film recieved quite a share of negative reviews as well"? This is a question of whether calling the film's reception especially positive is fair and so far, you've provided absolutely no evidence that the amount of negative reception was anything close to noteworthy. What does your interpretation of the guidelines have to do with that?130.49.192.155 (talk) 21:23, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

When Rotten Tomatoes does it, it's called a "reliable source", when Wikipedia editors do it's called "Original research", and the burden of proof is on editors who wish to add content. Betty Logan (talk) 11:54, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

We cannot use Rotten Tomatoes as an accurate gauge of critical reception when the film precedes the website's launch. (It is acceptable as a gauge when it can collect reviews as they are published, like with a film released today.) The essay WP:RTMC says, "Sources besides Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic should be sought out for films released before the 2000s; reports of critical consensus will likely exist in print sources. E.g., Alien, released in 1979, has a score of 97% on Rotten Tomatoes, but the critical reception at the time of release was mixed." I would recommend looking for publications about this film or possibly coverage about the sequel, which will usually talk about the preceding film. That way, we can cite proper sources to explain the film's reception at the time. Erik (talk | contribs) 13:21, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

This is a perfect source to use. Can we reference it to cover the reception? I reviewed the "Reviews" section more closely, and I think it should be rewritten. There is a negative slant (with extensive quoting of Rich's and Sarris's reviews) that needs to be corrected, based on the reception the source reports. Erik (talk | contribs) 13:24, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

That's probably as good a source as we will find. I notice the source itself sums up the critical reception as a "generally favorable critical response" so we could just fly with that. I have no problem with the reception section being re-written, one critic inparticular is given too much word space. We could do far worse than just modelling our section after the paragraph in the book. Betty Logan (talk) 13:41, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Rocky - Rocco

Am I the first to suggest Rocky's name is derived from the Visconti film "Rocco e i suoi fratelli"? It's just a suggestion, but if you agree on this, it might be mentioned in the wikipedia article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.124.214.42 (talk) 00:07, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

If you can find a reliable source that says that, then it can be mentioned in this article. DonQuixote (talk) 14:16, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

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Genre

An editor has started inserting "romance" as a genre. WP:FILMLEAD clearly advises that "At minimum, the opening sentence should identify the title of the film, the year of its public release, and the primary genre or sub-genre under which it is verifiably classified." Romance is clearly not the primary genre under which the film is classified. Here are a few examples:

• IMDB: Drama/Sport
• American Film Institute: Drama (sub-genre: boxing)
• TCM: Romance/Action/Drama/Sports (sub-genre: Boxing Drama)
• Allmovie: Drama (sub-genre: Sports Drama)

The most prestigious of those sources (the AFI) does not mention "Romance" at all. All four sources mention some variation of "Sports drama" (with the AFI opting for "boxing". Many films have love interests and romantic subplots, but that does not make them "romance" films. FILMLEAD is quite clear that only the primary genre should be included. Also, WP:WEIGHT compels us to not give minority viewpoints undue weight, which adding "romance" as a genre undeniably does do when the majority of sources do not classify it as such. Betty Logan (talk) 18:56, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Please note that IMDb and AllMovie are not ubiquitously considered reliable sources (please see WP:CITEIMDB and Talk:AllMovie). Also note the phrase "the primary genre or sub-genre under which it is verifiably classified". If we are to consider the romantic genre as not being a primary genre, then clearly it would still be a sub-genre, and could therefore remain if that were the case. Also take notice that the esteemed Turner Classic Movies organisation (though not as prestigious as AFI) considers it to be a primarily romantic film. Furthermore, acclaimed film critic Roger Ebert lists "romance" as one of the film's genres in this review.

The film's plot heavily concerns the relationship between Rocky and Adrian, with both characters undergoing arcs because of it. Adrian warms up to Rocky over the course of the film, and the two share scenes of kissing, ice skating, and personal dialogue. The film even concludes with a triumphant embrace between the characters. Even if romance, by the end of this discussion, is determined to not be the film's primary genre, then its impact of romance on the story, along with sources that list it as a genre, would easily place it in the realm of a sub-genre. –Matthew - (talk) 19:16, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Your own analysis of the plot is irrelevant because it constitutes WP:Original research, and most sources—reliable or not—do not predominantly regard it as a "romance" film. All sources brought up here regard the genre as "Drama" and the sub-genre as "Sport" or "Boxing", ergo that is the primary genre. There is no dissent among sources over what the primary genre aand sub-genre is. TCM also lists "action" alongside "romance" but these are secondary genres as far as the weight of the sources go. Also, as an aside, at that discussion about Allmovie that is just a couple of editors sounding off about it; as someone points out it is considered reliable at WP:FILM. Betty Logan (talk) 19:26, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Please again consider that there are no rules against including a sub-genre in the lead. You have stated that "FILMLEAD is quite clear that only the primary genre should be included", yet this is completely false upon reviewing WP:FILMLEAD. Furthermore, while my plot analysis may be original research, each of those scenes are undoubtedly in the film, which one would likely recognise after having watched said film. –Matthew - (talk) 19:43, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Betty Logan ... would say that a genre of "drama" with a sub-genre of "sports" (or maybe "boxing") should more than adequately sum up the movie, including the Rocky-Adrian relationship. - Xenxax (talk) 19:51, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Matthewhoobin, since a big part of the film deals with romance. It should be kept as a subgenre in the heading. Should action be included too, since several sources point to action as a subgenre? --ColouredFrames (talk) 20:00, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

I disagree with considering the film to be of the action genre, but still contend the sub-genre of romance. –Matthew - (talk) 20:05, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Sports drama is a good summation for the lead. Many dramas, comedies and musicals have romantic relationships as a key part of the story, but we don't usually call them romances unless that is the driving force, e.g. a romantic comedy. - Gothicfilm (talk) 02:10, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Since the addition of a sub-genre hasn't proved too popular, I propose a compromise. I think that, if we cannot agree on referring to Rocky as a "romantic sports drama", then perhaps we could label it like the article for the 1976 film Taxi Driver. The lead sentence for Taxi Driver calls it a "vigilante film with neo-noir and psychological thriller elements". In that vein, we could call Rocky a "sports drama film with romantic elements". It's not my ideal description but I'd much prefer it to not mentioning romance at all. –Matthew - (talk) 11:46, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

There in't much support for your stance because you are wrong, and therefore a compromise is not required. Taxi Driver is labelled in such a way because there is dissent over its genre among sources. There is no such dissent here: there are no sources that do not describe it as a "Sports drama" or something along those lines. As Gothicfilm points out (and I point out above) many films have romantic sub-plots but that doesn't make them "romance" films. The Empire Strikes Back features a prominent love story; On Her Majesty's Secret Service and Casino Royale both feature James Bond falling in love; Indiana Jones gets married in the last film. That doesn't make them "romance" films. Rocky is a Sports drama: the film is primarily about Rocky's title challenge. The sources are unanimous in highlighling these two genres, so the sources have made the decision for us. All of them include "Drama" and "Sport/Boxing" but those that mention "romance" and "action" are in the minority. Betty Logan (talk) 17:24, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Are you insisting that "romance" is not frequently considered even a sub-genre for the film?

• The Film Spectrum: "one of the finest love stories in movie history"
• TCM: top genre - romance
• CraveOnline: 22nd most romantic movie of all time
• Roger Ebert: genres - drama, romance

I am currently scanning official material from the Rocky VHS release to further my argument. –Matthew - (talk) 22:31, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Here is an image I scanned of the official Rocky VHS tape, released in a box set by MGM in 1995. Note its statement that the "love [which] blossoms" between Rocky and Adrian gives "Rocky even more strength and purpose to 'go the distance' against his brutal adversary". That notion seems to fulfill the "driving force" quota devised by Gothicfilm. Linked here is an image I scanned of a companion booklet from the box set, entited 20 Years with Rocky - The Real Story of An American Hero. It refers to the film's romantic elements as equal to that of its drama and boxing. "Romance" is clearly a sub-genre, which is perfectly acceptable under WP:FILMLEAD, whether you decide to misquote the guideline or not. –Matthew - (talk) 22:56, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Genre is how something is categorized, not how something is described. On her Majesty's Seceret Service can be described as a love story too but that does not necessarily mean that its primary genre is romance. If you look at any catalog or database (IMDB/American Film Institute/TCM/Allmovie/Rotten Tomatoes/Box Office Mojo) they all categorize it as Drama & Sports/Boxing, and only TCM include the romance genre. The overwhelming majority of sources do not consider it a "romance" film whereas there is unanimous consensus that it is a drama, with many of them placing it in the "sports drama" sub-genre. We've had a discussion now and three of the five editors who have commented here oppose the addition of "romance" as a genre, so as it stands there is WP:NOCONSENSUS to add it. Betty Logan (talk) 00:52, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Alas, another grounded yet futile Wikipedia argument. But consensus is consensus. Though, you should at least try to read the manual of style guidelines for film-related articles next round. –Matthew - (talk) 01:31, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

I am very familiar with the guidelines thankyou very much, and have even contributed to writing some of them. I've seen you around on several of the pages I edit, Matthew, and you are a very good editor on the whole but obviously we have very different interpretations of the guidelines in this instance. Betty Logan (talk) 02:08, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

I apologise; that was a pretty snide comment for me to make. You did write that "FILMLEAD is quite clear that only the primary genre should be included", and that irked me because that certainly isn't the case. I think that my behaviour has been a bit rude here and there, and I'm sorry. I'm very passionate about films and editing articles about them, and I sincerely believe that Rocky is in the romance genre. Nonetheless, I see now that you're a senior editor, and consensus is still consensus, so I forfeit. –Matthew - (talk) 02:57, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Just a comment, but it's about verifying rather than believing. So if you can verify that it's in the romance genre, then you'll convince more people that it is. DonQuixote (talk) 03:03, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

I sure tried, what with TCM and Roger Ebert and all that. I mean, I physically stuck an old VHS tape in a printer's scanner just to try to win an Internet squabble. But I suppose I understand what you mean. –Matthew - (talk) 03:33, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

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One of the Greatest Sports films??

This sentence from the lead - "Rocky is considered to be one of the greatest sports films ever made and was ranked as the second-best in the genre, after Raging Bull, by the American Film Institute in 2008." - could use a source/cite for the claim. If it is the AFI, it is not clear that is where the opinion came from. THX1136 (talk) 02:58, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Is it true that we recruited spectators for the match using free fried chicken?

I am a Japanese user. It was broadcast on a TV program in Japan that "The extras of Rocky's match were recruited with free fried chicken", but it is good to say that there is no such description in the English version about this I wonder?

I'm using Google Translate, so I'm sorry if the text is poor Yuki 2525 (talk) 19:51, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Not sure about the claim, but the bonus material on the DVD mentions that the film had a very low budget relatively speaking. One of the producers and another production member stated that they only used around 50 extras and had to be 'creative' in their use to make it appear that there were more in the arena during the fight. This was due primarliy to budget constraints. THX1136 (talk) 03:03, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Cast

There seems to be an editor who feels the need to make the cast section different in this article from literally thousands of other film articles on Wikipedia that have a cast section with a bullet list of the cast. Any help to resolve this edit war would be greatly appreciated. Jdavi333 (talk) 21:40, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Which articles do you think it should look like? What is wrong with the layout at the featured article Fight Club or the featured article Jaws (film) which have both undergone an extensive peer review and been judged to be among the highest quality articles on Wikipedia? There is no policy or guideline stating that film articles must all have exactly the same structure. WP:FILMCAST makes this clear:

The structure of the article may also influence form. A basic cast list in a "Cast" section is appropriate for the majority of Stub-class articles. When the article is in an advanced stage of development, information about the cast can be presented in other ways. A "Cast" section may be maintained but with more detailed bulleted entries, ensuring that these lists adhere to accessibility standards; or a table or infobox grouping actors and their roles may be placed in the plot summary or in the "Casting" subsection of a "Production" section. Use tables with care due to their complexity; they are most appropriate for developed, stable articles.

The "casting" of the film is an integral part of the production phase so structurally it fits better in the production section. As for where the "cast" list should go there are several options available, and integrating it into the "casting" section is a perfectly acceptable option. It seems to me your reason for restructuring this article is motivated by what you have seen at other articles rather than what best suits the style of this article. Some articles do have separate cast sections but this is usually necessitated by a huge cast list or a lot of of cast information, and it is perfectly acceptable in those cases. That isn't the case with this article though which has a small cast list and can easily easily be integrated into the existing "casting" section. IMO the integrated cast box looks aesthetically superior to what is essentially a "bare" list just dumped into the article. Betty Logan (talk) 22:41, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

How about every other movie in the Rocky franchise? Just to list a few from hundreds. Almost every single film article in Wikipedia (except for the few you have mentioned). While it may be true that the MOS has alternate methods of listing the cast, I cannot imagine I am alone in thinking that the method used by a VAST majority (well over 90%) of articles should be the one to stick with. Jdavi333 (talk) 00:02, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

The other Rocky articles are not as developed as this article (making a bare cast list more permissable) although I would argue that Rocky Balboa (film) would be enhanced by the approach taken at this article. But again, your argument is motivated by what is done at other articles not by what is in the interests of this one. I believe that this layout is superior: the cast list is more cleanly integrated into the article (the bare list has a load of whitespace at the side which looks ugly) and the placement of the casting section in the production section is more intutive. Taken on its own terms (i.e. not by what is done at some other articles) why do you think the bare list version is better? Betty Logan (talk) 00:21, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

The "bare list" format lets you put notes about the characters and such, but if you're not going to do that, maybe it would be more economical to embed it in the casting section. I mean, either way seems fine to me. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:34, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, that's basically the approach taken at Alien_(film)#Cast which I consider a really good layout, although I wouldn't call that a "bare list" approach. It actually takes a "full list" approach with sourced real-world information. There is hardly any excess whitespace at all; the key difference is that it looks structured and integrated. Betty Logan (talk) 02:44, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

But isn't it a little foolish to have different formats throughout Wikipedia? Regardless of what it says in the MOS, I think it prudent to at least put it up for a discussion if it is worth while to adopt a universal format accrue the entire Wikipedia community. Jdavi333 (talk) 03:08, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Well, if you wanted to do that, you could suggest it at WP:VPPRO, but I can tell you now that it won't go over well. I think a bit of consistency is a good thing, but we shouldn't be forced to do things one way just because many other articles do it that way. If someone worked to expand the cast list with more sourced information, like Alien, maybe that'd be an acceptable compromise. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:14, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

How can a film that made five times its budget on its opening weekend be described as "a sleeper hit"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.61.72.209 (talk) 16:52, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

It is a correct assessment. With a relatively low budget - around 1 mil - no one involved in the film expected the eventual gross the film captured and this is by their own admission. I just watched the bonus interviews on the DVD with the producers, cast members and some of the crew. They all made mention at some point that it was with much surprise that the film did so well.THX1136 (talk) 03:10, 1 March 2021 (UTC)