Talk:Rockefeller Center/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: JohnWickTwo (talk · contribs) 14:04, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

This may take a day or two to prepare. In the meantime, it might be useful to hear how you are organizing the two sister articles for this page and the article for Construction of Rockefeller Center which you are also editing. JohnWickTwo (talk) 14:04, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

@Epicgenius: Let me know when you are ready and I can type in my handwritten notes. JohnWickTwo (talk) 16:06, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

@JohnWickTwo: Of course. I was just waiting for you to add some notes before I replied to them. epicgenius (talk) 16:07, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Set up preliminary outline for assessment:

0 Lede

First a general comments before starting the lede since I am finding the writing quality of the article to be in general a notch above the average at Wikipedia. Therefore, some of my comments will include stylistic and optional comments amid the technical comments. Also note that John Jr and Sr had almost identical names and it is needed that the article be checked that the appellation always be present from top to bottom in this article. In the lede info first sentence consider the wording "51st Streets facing Fifth Avenue in New York City", even though you mention between 5th and 6th two sentences later. The wording "to John D. Rockefeller Jr., who was the main person behind the complex's construction" to "to the Center's principal developer John D. Rockefeller Jr." Your infobox imbedded maps may be a little overdone; do readers need to see NJ to the west, or is lower Manhattan a more useful map to use here. JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

I fixed the 51st Street sentence. The article has also been checked for the mentions of the Rockefellers, but John Rockefeller Sr. isn't mentioned anywhere.

Regarding the maps, this is an issue with the {{Location map United States New York City}} itself. It is not possible to show the entirety of NYC, facing northward, without showing NJ. {{Location map United States Lower Manhattan}} Manhattan only covers below 14th Street, I think. epicgenius (talk) 18:05, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

1 History

Since you are also editing the Construction of Rockefeller Center article you should keep an eye out for redundancy here. Otherwise there will be two parallel accounts of the construction which will only confuse readers. Trim as much as possible since this is currently a fairly long section. Keep an eye on the somewhat large number of redlinks (too many) for construction companies, etc, which no longer exist. JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Actually, during the creation of the construction article, I split it off from this article. I trimmed it to about a quarter of what is in the construction article. I also eliminated two red links, although this should be fine per WP:REDLINK. epicgenius (talk) 18:05, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

If you have created a main article for Construction then you may want to trim even further as you cover all this in the Construction article. Please check the images in this section again since one of them is appearing with the negative template showing on the edges and it actually looks a small bit slanted. JohnWickTwo (talk) 03:40, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

I trimmed the info even more, although I can't remove more info, or else there would be a loss of important context.

That's how the image appears. I swapped it out. epicgenius (talk) 02:07, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

1.1 Context

Many redlinks. JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

I tried to remedy some of them. I removed the links that are unlikely to become articles. epicgenius (talk) 22:53, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Sounds good. It would be useful if you could fit in somewhere that the elderly John Sr had passed away in 1937, and that John Jr had assumed the main role in the family several years before 1937. This explains why John Sr is not in this article and why John Jr is prominent. JohnWickTwo (talk) 03:40, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Should mention that John Sr was retired by 1930 and therefore was not a participant. You mention the 'Rockefeller family' so many times that it almost looks like a omission if you do not deal with Senior somewhere, anywhere, in the article to indicate that he was no longer effectively on the scene. JohnWickTwo (talk) 20:48, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

I clarified that Sr. wasn't involved. The retirement is kind of a tangent though. epicgenius (talk) 02:07, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

1.2 Updated project

You say 'quickly', though the month and year should be added in this first sentence. JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Clarified. epicgenius (talk) 18:05, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

1.2.1 Planning

Your final sentence states: "which restricted the height that the street-side exterior walls of New York City buildings could rise before they needed to incorporate setbacks that recessed the buildings' exterior walls away from the streets." Consider alternate wording "which required setbacks to all high street-side exterior walls of New York City buildings in order to increase sunlight for city streets." Mentioned of the architects and why Art Deco was a dominant motif might be mentioned here also. JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

I changed the wording in that final sentence, and merged the context and updated project sections.

I'm not sure how to mention the architects. The sources also don't mention why Art Deco was used. I think on the Chrysler Building article might give a little explanation: the 1916 Zoning Law ...led to the construction of Art Deco structures in New York City with significant setbacks, large volumes, and striking silhouettes that were often elaborately decorated. epicgenius (talk) 18:05, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

You could also mention that one of the architects had a reputation as an Art Deco specialist in Raymond Hood. Also, this is the Goldberger quote which article I have linked in my comments at the bottom of this assessment page. This sentence from his article should be worked into your article as useful somewhere, either here or in a later section: "More importantly, Rockefeller Center is balanced between the old and the new. Its architects—a team consisting of Corbett. Harrison & MacMurray, Hood & Fouilhoux. and Reinhard & Hofmeister—were neither reactionaries nor at the cutting edge of the modern movement. Raymond Hood had completed the Daily News building on East 42d Street in 1930 and its strong verticals influenced the center buildings in the direction of modernism, but both Flood and Harvey Wiley Corbett had been trained at the Ecole des Beaux‐Arts in Paris, and this conservative education tempered their avant‐garde tendencies." A useful quote if you can make it fit. JohnWickTwo (talk) 03:40, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

You use the phrase: "The principal architect was Raymond Hood". This would look more useful as "The principal architect, a student of the Art Deco movement in architecture, was Raymond Hood". JohnWickTwo (talk) 20:48, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Done, with some changes. epicgenius (talk) 02:07, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

1.2.2 Construction

You state: "because of Hitler's invasion of the Netherlands at the time". This can be shortened to "because of WWII". JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Done. epicgenius (talk) 18:05, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

The following phrase appears "but Rockefeller ruled this out in 1934 after being advised of Adolf Hitler's Nazi march toward totalitarianism,", which should be shortened to "but Rockefeller ruled this out in 1934 after noting national socialist extremism,", or something like that. On Wikicommons you state that your own photo of 50 Rockefeller was shot with a 5mm (five mm) lens which looks like an error typo. JohnWickTwo (talk) 03:40, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

I fixed the phrase.

The 5 mm is in the metadata, so I can't edit it. Even then, the 5mm refers to the focal length, "the distance over which initially collimated (parallel) rays are brought to a focus". epicgenius (talk) 19:50, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Once you mention 'national socialism', as you have done, you pretty much indicate the entire group at once including Goering, Himmler, Goebbels, etc. You can drop the link and mention of Adolf as redundant. Separately regarding metadata, a 5mm lens is a extreme-fish-eye lens used only for special effects; it is far more likely that it was a 35mm lens. If you put it on Village Pump someone will fix it. JohnWickTwo (talk) 20:48, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

I fixed the national socialism issue.

I used a really small portable camera to take these pictures. The focal length is 5.0 (W) - 25.0 (T) mm (35mm film equivalent: 28 (W) - 140 (T) mm), according to the manufacturer. It's very unlikely that this is incorrect, but even if I raised this on VP, this would be more of a Commons issue. epicgenius (talk) 02:07, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

1.3 World War II era

Same comment to shorten this text: "because of WWII". JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Done. epicgenius (talk) 18:05, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

1.4 Expansion

Wording from "Esso" to "Esso, now Exxon,...". Where did St Nicholas end up? JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Done Esso.

According to the article on St. Nicholas Collegiate Reformed Protestant Dutch Church, the church was just demolished. epicgenius (talk) 18:05, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

The usual language for something like this is to say that the church members were absorbed into the other functioning Reformed churches operating in NYC at that time. JohnWickTwo (talk) 03:40, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Done. epicgenius (talk) 02:07, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

1.5 Later years

The cinema at Rockefeller was also a major Hollywood venue for opening new major films. Consider merging your two fragments on the Rainbow Room and the new relocation of the Rockefeller Family; add where the Family is currently located. JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

I added a detail on the family's current location and combined the info on the Rainbow Room. epicgenius (talk) 22:53, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

2 Buildings

You do mention Art Deco and International Style here, but not the architects. Did this have anything to do with the Rockefeller interest in MoMA and other similar family interests. JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

@JohnWickTwo: Regarding the architectural influences - not that I could tell. And regarding the architects, this is covered at the beginning of the article: the "Associated Architects" intentionally muddled their identities up. 22:53, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

2.1 Landmark buildings

If its a landmark, then readers need to know more about the architect. JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

I clarified. epicgenius (talk) 22:53, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

2.1.1 Radio City

Caption for photo should indicate from where, which corner, the reader is looking at the building. The FedEx truck does not give this information. Redlinks again, do you really need these; are they notably important. JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Image locations done.

I think these links might be sufficiently notable that the articles may be created in the near future. epicgenius (talk) 22:53, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

2.1.2 International complex

Should reader be told briefly what takes place at La Maison Francaise and at the companion British Empire Building. JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

There's already an explanation. These are retail buildings, which host retail outlets. epicgenius (talk) 22:53, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

2.1.3 Other buildings

2.2 Later buildings

3 Other architectural elements

Could you give the date on which the tree is installed and lighted each year, and when it comes down. I believe its the same from year to year. JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

I researched the dates and they vary from year to year, but happen usually around the same general time. epicgenius (talk) 22:53, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Optionally it might be nice to add to the image caption that the tree is usually lighted sometime around Thanksgiving each year. JohnWickTwo (talk) 03:40, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Done. epicgenius (talk) 02:07, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

3.1 Lower Plaza

You do say its lower level, though you could still add the phrase 'below ground level' in several places for readers who have never visited the Center. 'The Prometheus statue is below ground level', or, 'The rink which is located below ground level'. The clarity would be useful here for readers who have never visited NYC. In 1962 John D needs to say Jr here. Also including the entire Creed look overdone. One suggestion is to quote the first one and link the rest, or put them on the biography page instead, but not here at full length. The IM Pei quote at the end is very useful. Why did he think it was "the most successful open space"? JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

I clarified the lower level as below ground.

Regarding the quote, I agree it's overdone. I just randomly picked two principles and threw out the rest. Whoever wants to see the rest of the creed can Google it, or look at the reference.

I also clarified Pei's reasoning. epicgenius (talk) 22:53, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Could you include the quote from one of the two books you cite for the IM Pei comment. It would be useful to see as a quote of no more than one or two sentences. JohnWickTwo (talk) 03:40, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that's all he says about the Plaza. The full sentence is "The Rockefeller Center Plaza [...] is perhaps the most successful open space in the United States, perhaps in the world for that matter". It's in his article "Open Space" (1970). epicgenius (talk) 19:50, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

The quote I was talking about is from your cite for Adler (p170) and Balfour (p223) just before the 'Rockefeller Plaza' section. There is so little on Urban Planning in this article, that a 1-2 sentence quote from either Adler or Balfour would add a lot. If you do not have Adler or Balfour in your library then you might be able to search it on Google Books. Otherwise, just tell me that you do not have access to these citation quotes. JohnWickTwo (talk) 20:48, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

@JohnWickTwo: In regards to Adams, she only wrote about a portion of the original quote. Balfour, which I had to read in person, had a longer portion of the quote, but it was still only one sentence. epicgenius (talk) 02:07, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

3.2 Rockefeller Plaza

That's an awfully dark photo. Any options? JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

I uploaded a photo. epicgenius (talk) 22:53, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

3.3 Rooftop gardens

Caption to photo should indicate "...as viewed from ...". JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Done. epicgenius (talk) 22:53, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

3.4 Underground concourse

Awfully dark image again. Possibly one of the retailers would have a nice photo in the public domain? JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

No such luck, though I took some photos. I'm cleaning them up now. However, I should note that the concourse is even darker in person because the lights are probably 40 watts or something... epicgenius (talk) 22:53, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm a little surprised by this since most retail chains usually have marketing photos that they are more the happy to share with anyone who wants to use them for free. I do not have the list of retailers there, and possibly you could mention 2-3 well-known retailers if you have this list. Everyone appreciates your taking this photo for Wikipedia under adverse lighting conditions though it is awfully dark (maybe make it a little bigger). JohnWickTwo (talk) 20:48, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm reluctant to include well-known retailers because this edges into WP:NOTDIRECTORY. There isn't any single large retailer, but almost all of them are big names like Banana Republic. epicgenius (talk) 02:07, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

3.5 Pre-existing buildings

Take the 'see Construction' link you use and shadow link it under your word 'construction' which occurs just before your parenthesis here. JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Done. epicgenius (talk) 22:53, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

It looks even better if you hide the text under your word construction and use no parenthesis at all when I tried this. You can decide this either way. JohnWickTwo (talk) 03:40, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

I think that's what I did. These buildings exist as a result of two tenants who refused to sell their rights to Rockefeller during construction. epicgenius (talk) 19:50, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

4 Art

4.1 Statues

4.1.1 Atlas

4.1.2 Prometheus

4.2 Man at the Crossroads

Nice section on Rivera. JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

5 Critical review

Consider bring more on IM Pei's views here as well. It would be nice to included some modern architect's views (cf Paul Goldberger; this links his 1970s article on the Center here [1]) on New York City as a whole being famous for its Art Deco motifs, and how Rockefeller Center fits into all that. Try to find reliable sources for this since there are quite a few architects who have appreciated this aspect of the NY City skyline and Rockefeller Centers important contribution to this tradition. For consistency with other Wikipedia articles, I would suggest organizing the negative aesthetic appraisals together in one place toward the end of this section, and putting the IM Pei comments, or something similar at the very top of this section. JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

The section goes like this: early negative reactions, early positive reactions, later reactions. Most of the early reactions were negative for their lack of creativity, and came from architects of all stripes.

I added more critical reviews. epicgenius (talk) 19:50, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Added reviews are very useful. You use the opening phrase here as "In its earliest years, Rockefeller Center had mixed reviews from architectural critics.", which might look better with chronology emphasized as "At the time of its opening in the early 1930s, Rockefeller Center at first received a largely mixed and uninspired reception from architectural critics". JohnWickTwo (talk) 20:48, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Done, with modification. epicgenius (talk) 02:07, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

6 References

Not sure that there is consistency in the use of caps and non-caps throughout the reference section. Is there some rhyme or reason for the mixed used of cap titles and regular titles throughout the reference section. JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

I decapitalized the titles. The all-caps were the original titles of these articles as filled out by VisualEditor. epicgenius (talk) 19:50, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

When you are finished with the added comments above which I have made, then let me know and I would like to do one more full read through. The architecture and urban planning material is useful to add more about in this article. JohnWickTwo (talk) 03:40, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

@JohnWickTwo: I have responded to all the comments that you have made. epicgenius (talk) 19:50, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

You have responded promptly and usefully. My few added comments above are mostly about your missing an 'Urban Design' section which is increasingly important for articles like this one on Wikipedia. Not that you necessarily need such a separate section, though adding the Adler or the Balfour quote might be useful. I have already done a full read through of all your previous revisions, and after you finish addressing the ones which I have just added, I would like to then make the final assessment either later today or tomorrow. JohnWickTwo (talk) 20:48, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for doing this review. I have finished or responded to all of your comments. I'm not sure what you mean about an "urban design" section, since the designs of Rockefeller Center were covered in more detail in the Construction article. epicgenius (talk) 02:07, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Closing assessment

The editor submitting this article for assessment writes better than average for Wikipedia, and has been diligent and prompt in making useful and informative changes. There is a parallel article currently being developed by the submitting editor on Construction for Rockefeller Center and either it or this article here, if it ever goes toward featured article status, should eventually include an Urban design section which would deal with community issues and the effect of Rockefeller Center on the immediate streets and avenues of NYC which surround it. The images in the current article are quite useful and informative, and the article seems to check all of the assessment boxes. The article is promoted and makes a useful addition to the family of articles at Wikipedia which cover NYC. JohnWickTwo (talk) 03:04, 20 February 2018 (UTC)