Talk:Ritual of oak and mistletoe

Introduced link

I linked Animal sacrifice to this article. -- Wi2g 23:58, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Single source

This article draws from a single source. Green's reputation notwithstanding, the article should be expanded to include other sources. (From editorial tags.) --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 04:04, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

I should be able to add some additional perspectives from Jean-Louis Brunaux's Les Druides : des philosophes chez les barbares and possibly from something by Christian Goudineau. I'll try to remember to do this when I have my books in front of me. Q·L·1968 ☿ 17:14, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, I've done my best for starters, but I think that this article is now actually shorter than when I began, having commented out some not particularly relevant effusions. I'm sure Miranda Green was making a serious point, and set out to do it thoroughly, but there's no need for Wikipedia to detail all of her argumentation. The point was that Pliny's account need not be dismissed as implausible prima facie. But did anyone seriously argue that it was? Maybe I ought to get her book out of the library. I suspect Brunaux has a good deal more to say about this ritual as well; no doubt Piggott does too... Q·L·1968 ☿ 04:46, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Removed material

The following material was removed for being irrelevant, unsubstantiated, or for merely repeating Pliny's report:

Pliny was primarily interested in natural history [ ... ] Yet Pliny specifically associates druids with oak trees. Oaks were held sacred by both druids and Celts alike. [ ... ] oak was used to construct the great Iron Age multi-ring timber structure at Navan Fort in County Armagh. The Poole Logboat and the Corlea Trackway were both made of oak in the Iron Age.

Central to Pliny’s statement is the sanctity of the mistletoe, both as a healing agent and as an aid to fertility. Both these concerns are emphasised in Celtic religious expression.

Mistletoe has been reported by archaeologists as having been thought beneficial to sufferers of insomnia, and conditions attributable as high blood pressure and malignancies. (By archaologists?!?)

Moreover, mistletoe may have possessed important symbolism for the Celts [ ... ] if such an identification be correct, it may be that the faces depicted in this pre-Roman art are those of priests or gods.

In Pliny’s comments, three other points of significance concern banqueting, the moon and bull-sacrifice. All three are familiar to the repertoire of Celtic religion. [ ... ] the Hallstatt chieftain’s tomb at Hochdorf was furnished with a set of nine drinking horns and a nine-piece dinner service, for the otherworld Banquet, as well as a huge cauldron of mead. Certain shrines exhibit abundant evidence of ceremonial banquets:

Pliny makes allusions to the moon on its sixth day, a waxing crescent moon, as an instrument of healing: here again there is corroborative evidence in that

--Jorge Stolfi (talk) 05:21, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

---

>>>removed: "The sickle, if made of gold, would be difficult to cut with, though a gilt sickle made of a stronger metal might have been used." Is this an actual part of ms green's observations or someone else's? I think not, and that isn't clear. At any rate, a person familiar with mistletoe would laugh at this notion, since the plant is a fragile green herb which parasitizes the branches of oak and is easily broken off with fingers, no need for any sharp implement and certainly nothing sharper or stronger than gold is needed. This was a CEREMONY. So this statement is ludicrous, misleading,fallacious, not historically accurate, unfounded and unnecessary to include. Besides apparently someone else's words and not ms green's. So I removed it. 67.42.151.202 (talk) 11:24, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

You're right to be suspicious. The observation was actually Stuart Piggott's, but it's my fault for not having summarized his point clearer. I've been meaning to cite/explain that point better. He's talking about the idea that gold is so soft it wouldn't cut much of anything, fragile or not. It's not a huge deal, but it might be worth mentioning since the golden sickle is such a central image in this ceremony. Q·L·1968 ☿ 16:50, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I would like to add more suspition to that. Gold has nothing to do with any of the symbolism, although I still do not have any sources to confirm my thesis. It was probably a silver sickle, because it was a moon ritual, all clothes were white, as everything else was moon related. So there is probably a mistake, even if it comes from Plinius himself. Regards.Dimasgomez (talk) 21:54, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Where did the ritual take place?

The original article stated that the practice occurred in Gaul; but I have seen claims elsewhere that the name "druid" was exclusively used in Britain, and druids were not attested in other parts of the Celtic world. I have removed the reference to Gaul pending verification of this point. --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 05:21, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

No no, the druids are well-attested in Gaul. For example, the only druid whose name has been preserved (Diviciacus) was an Æduan; also, their central gathering place was supposed to have been a forest in the territory of the Carnutes (i.e. somewhere more or less near modern-day Chartres). The terminology may be confusing here: whenever ancient writers talk about "Celts", they're referring to inhabitants of the European continent (i.e. the Celts of Gaul, the Iberian peninsula, Eastern Europe, northern Italy, etc.) or of Galatia—but not of the British Isles (who might be Britanni, Scoti, Picti, etc.). It's only since Edward Lhuyd that the term 'Celtic' has been extended to Britain and Ireland (originally in a philological sense). So although druids were present in Britain (witness Mona...), if ancient authors are talking about druids in a "Celtic" context, they probably mean Gaul and not Britain. (I'd have to look back at Pliny for the exact context of this quote...) Q·L·1968 ☿ 17:42, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Forest benefit

24.50.151.151 (talk) 15:13, 28 December 2014 (UTC) results from the rich nutrients in mistletoe leaves, similar to maple being rich. http://www.sott.net/article/290551-Mistletoe-The-vampire-of-the-forest So the ritual was acknowledging fertility?