Talk:Richard Llewellyn

Untitled

Richard's date of birth is often given as 1907.

• http://www.npg.org.uk/live/search/person.asp?LinkID=mp55705

• http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-Llewelly.html

• http://www.kids.net.au/encyclopedia-wiki/ri/Richard_Llewellyn

Ogg 20:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Wasn't this also the name of the guy who kind of hosted The People's Court (with Judge Wapner) way back when? Isaac Crumm 05:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Nationality

Irvine22 appears to be on a campaign to make Welsh people born in England English, rather like a previous campaign on Irish people born in England. In this case it is inappropriate to categorise the author as English of Welsh descent. The fact that he claimed to have been born of Wales is a clue, aside from the undisputed fact that his parents were Welsh. A quick internet search shows this and there are others. The category should be removed. And not for the first time, Irvine22 you are in breach of WP:BRD I suggest you self revert. --Snowded ^TALK 23:31, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, he claimed to have born in Wales, not "of" it. That was a false claim, as the article currently notes. Writers do sometimes self-fictionalize. Llewelleyn's self-identification as Welsh is therefore problematic. Patrick O'Brian is another writer who fictionalized a "romantic" Celtic heritage for himself. Wikipedia shouldn't perpetuate these porkies. We must be in the business of fact.Irvine22 (talk) 00:25, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

The one thing which is pretty clear is that he does not identify as English, so adding English person of Welsh descent is a nonsense. The fact that he made a fase statement about his place of birth is notable and included. It does not support categorizing him as English --Snowded ^TALK 01:08, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, I see he is currently categorized as a "Person from Hendon", where he was in fact born. Hendon's in England, or it was the last I checked. In fact, the category "English People of Welsh descent" is full of people in the exact same position as Llewellyn (and as yourself - full disclosure). To whit: people born in England to Welsh parents. The problem with giving decisive weight to "self-identification" in these matters is that it asks us to take people at their word about their own backgrounds. And people - even (especially?) notable people - do tend to fantasize, embellish and dramatize their backgrounds, as is the case here. Irvine22 (talk) 01:23, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

And of course Joanna Lumley is Indian not English on those grounds. Place of birth does not determine nationality, it is one possible factor. WIkipedia policy on this is very clear. You have no material other than your own views on birth place to support the proposition that he is English --Snowded ^TALK 10:59, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that Lumley has made false statements about her birthplace, as Llewellyn did? And Wikipedia policy is not clear - except in so far as it makes clear there is no consensus around these matters. Irvine22 (talk) 14:36, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

(i) Place of Birth does not determine nationality (ii) you have nothing which says that Llewellyn identified as English (iii) whether he lied or not about his birthplace is not relevant to his ethnicity given my first point (iv) This is just like your games on Irish people born in England that got you close to another block. I suspect the next one will be permanent. If you have any evidence that Llewellyn identified as English then bring it here. Otherwise assume that you do not have agreement to change and that responding to your tedious games is not a requirement. --Snowded ^TALK 14:46, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

(i) Place of birth is a major determinant of nationality in the citizenship and nationality laws of most countries (ii) Llewellyn's false statements about his birthplace render him an unreliable source on these matters, leading us to give greater weight to other indicators such as actual place of birth (iii) ethnicity is not the same thing as nationality (iv) irrelevant to the present discussion, except your assertion that Llewellyn's self-identification should be dispositive, which cannot serve accuracy and verifiability as we have established Llewellyn as an unreliable source. Wikipedia should not perpetuate his self-fictionalization. Irvine22 (talk) 15:20, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

(out) BTW it's rather apt that the ersatz-Welsh film How Green Was My Valley (film) should have been based on a book by an ersatz-Welshman! Irvine22 (talk) 15:28, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

The nationality on his passport would presumably have been British. Since he served in the Welsh Guards, his self identification as Welsh seems fairly secure. He was born in England and his novel "How Green Was My Valley" was drafted in India. All of these are notable and worthy of inclusion - there is no need to insist on one category at the expense of the others. By the way, he was apparently born Richard Herbert Vivian Lloyd. AJRG (talk) 06:24, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely, he may happily inhabit several categories reflecting his peripatetic career and overlapping identities. Irvine22 (talk) 06:42, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

You are fooling no one with these games Irvine. Place of birth is a factor in citizenship, but as you well know is not in the case of nationality within the British Isles. You either have to produce some citation from a reliable source which says he is English or give up. --Snowded ^TALK 07:16, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

He potentially belongs in British citizens, Welsh people, People born in England, People who lived in India and even (a little artificially) in Welsh people born in England. Just not in English people, still less in English people of Welsh descent. AJRG (talk) 07:59, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Those are good suggestions, but many are not currently existing categories and he would be the only inhabitant. I have added him to "British people" and "Eilat", for now. Irvine22 (talk) 16:31, 20 March 2010 (UTC) I also added him to the "List of British People who lived or were born in India", where he sits alongside Joanna Lumley, by a happy coincidence. Irvine22 (talk) 16:38, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I have amended the categories - why would he be in the category Eilat? I have amended him to show Welsh novelist. The BBC note him as Welsh, as does Britannica - here. Daicaregos (talk) 09:07, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

(out) Unfortunately the link you provided perpetuates the falsehood that he was born in Wales. When people have been deceptive about their birthplaces (or birthdates for that matter) those inaccuracies do tend to be uncritically regurgitated - even by Britannica. We must be rigorous in extirpating them from Wikipedia.Irvine22 (talk) 08:06, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Because he lived in Eilat. Irvine22 (talk) 04:22, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Its not notable, you have been pointed to guidelines on this before --Snowded ^TALK 05:44, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

If it's not notable, why is it noted in the article? Irvine22 (talk) 07:38, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

"noted" and "notable" do not mean the same thing --Snowded ^TALK 08:17, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, "noted" would be the completed act of noting something that is notable. The fact that Llewelleyn lived in Eilat is therefore notable and noted. Irvine22 (talk) 16:30, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Read the guidelines Irvine --Snowded ^TALK 16:51, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Parents

The University of Texas gives his father's name as William Llewellyn Lloyd and a number of less reliable sources give his mother's name as Sarah Anne. If this is correct, there is a record of a marriage between a William Llewellyn Lloyd and a Sarah Anne Thomas, indexed at 1903 Apr-Jun Paddington Greater London, London, Middlesex Volume 1a Page 97, which fits with Richard Llewellyn's place and date of birth. Of interest is the fact that the marriage is indexed under both Lloyd and Llewellyn-Lloyd (William has two entries on the same page of the register). AJRG (talk) 12:23, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

This note on Hyphenated names in the General Register Office (GRO) index of births, marriages and deaths suggests that such surnames are normally indexed twice. AJRG (talk) 12:46, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Names

Richard Llewellyn used several different names. Archives Wales gives Lloyd, Richard Herbert Vivian, Lloyd, Richard David Vivian Llewellyn, Llewellyn Lloyd, Richard David Vivian and Llewellyn Lloyd, Richard Dafydd Vivian. To add confusion, the original copyright for How Green Was My Valley is in the name of Richard Vivian Llewellyn Lloyd. AJRG (talk) 16:39, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Richard Herbert Vivian Lloyd appears to be his birth name. Assuming the date and place of birth are correct, he's listed in the Index of Births as Richard Herbert V Lloyd Jan-Mar 1907 Hendon (1837-1947) Middlesex Volume 3a Page 279. AJRG (talk) 16:43, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Richard Dafydd Vivian Llewellyn Lloyd is apparently how he autographed books, and how he's listed in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. AJRG (talk) 16:52, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Other than Archives Wales, the only reliable sources I've found for Richard David Vivian Llewellyn Lloyd are BBC Wales (who seem to have been over-zealous in translating from Welsh) and A general analytical bibliography of the regional novelists of the British Isles (1800-1950) by Lucien Leclaire, Société d'Éditions Les Belles Lettres, 95 Boulevard Raspail - Paris 1954. AJRG (talk) 16:59, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

The BBC Wales documentary, as I recall, found him to be a bit of a fantasist, in the nicest possible way. He claimed to have been born in Wales, and it was a shock to a lot of people to find out he wasn't. That's one reason it took them so long to realise he wasn't using his birth name. Deb (talk) 17:54, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh yes, [that] will have been the one. Deb (talk) 11:59, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

If anyone has access to Gale's Contemporary Authors (reference books or online), they apparently have a biography of Richard Llewellyn... AJRG (talk) 19:04, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

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