Talk:Rewari

Untitled

I have thorougly revised the Rewari page and made major changes in it spending two days in doing so. I hope this makes the page more informative. I have a vested interest in this as I was born sixty years ago in my ancestral village in Rewari off what is now NH8 though the highway did not exist then. I have never lived in Haryana but intend to return to live in my ancestral haveli. Rao Ravindra (talk) 15:42, 27 December 2008 (UTC)Rao Ravindra 28 December 2008

Plight of page on Rewari

I have been asked by moderator Sitush, to vent my grievances about Rewari page here. A year ago I had written about "Martial History" of the area on this page below, but there was no action from moderators and Martial History remained ambiguous here. Since last one year, I have been observing how frequent deletions by those who do not know about the town, basics of wikipedia or the area have been fiddling with the page taking it to sorrowful condition, what it is at present time. But I am hopeful it will improve slowly. Sitush objected to my editings yesterday and deleted them. I hope he answers here. Sudhirbh (talk) 04:46, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Industries

The information about the Rewari small scale tradional industries is very good. I suppose it should be organized a lot as per Wiki guidelines. Secondly, the paragraph is talking a lot in-depth about the metal work which goes out of scope of the Rewari article. Maybe, a second page Rewari Metal Page could be started which can be referenced from this page. thevikas (talk) 02:49, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Requires Immense Cleanup —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.163.190.226 (talk) 03:07, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

"Its history is told in the Indian epic Mahabharat."- From when is Mahabharata a historical record. And what has been specifically told about?

"The last Hindu king of India, a great warrior Samrat Hem Chandra Vikramaditya also called Hemu, belonged to Rewari." _ anyone who has penned the article has written as a non historical, non factual, praise ballad. Hemu was not the last hindu king of 'India'. He was not the last hindu ruler of the Pre-colonial Indian subcontinent. Nor have any ruler before the british ruled 'India' as such. All rulers until the Indian republic have only held small parts of the land and ruled it as such without the present day concept of India. This is characteristic of all articles written about India. 1. All articles will trace epics like Mahabharat and Ramayana as true historical records. 2. Display unflinching nationalistic (jingoistic eg: words like brave jats, courageous ahirs etc) praise 3. Assume the history of India as a monolithic doctrine without talking into account the actual 'histories' of the various regions and peoples of the land.

I would urge someone scholarly to write a historical,unbiased and not an overly sympathetic description of the city. This is not a Rewari praise page. This is supposed to be basic info on Rewari. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.163.190.226 (talk) 03:05, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Martial History

Martial history of Rewari is unnecessarily made disputed by some who are not even showing their identity. There is no confusion that this area remains the mine of soldiers since thousands of years. Whether it was 'War of 10 Kings' as mentioned in Rigved or in the times of Mahabharat when Lord Krishna had active support of 'Bhartas' on whose name the country got its name 'Bharatvarsh', the local populace actively participated in wars. During medieval period, when barbarism of Mughals was at its peak, first 'Sher Shah Suri' who was born in 'Narnaul', 50 Kms. from Rewari within Haryana, and later 'Hem Chandra Vikramaditya' a local from Rewari dared to challenge Mughals and had defeated Mughal king Humanyun as well as Akbar's forces and ruled from Delhi from 1540 to 1556. Rewari is proud of these two heros' achievements. If these facts are mentioned on the page of Rewari, why it should be called 'praising Rewari'.

Then during 1857 revolt, the local heros 'Rao Tula Ram' and 'Rao Gopal Dev' organised rebellion against Btitishers. Several people had lost lives in this revolt. At present time high percentage of people from this area are in the army and para-military forces.

The 'Rezangla War' of 1962 against Chinese was fought by 'Kumaon Regiment' of Indian army, in very difficult conditions in Ladhakh. Several locals were killed and a memorial for these brave soldiers is erected by 'Rezangla Shaurya Samiti' at Rewari-Dharuhera road. The wordings concerning that battle written on the page are in fact written on the memorial at 'Rezangla', so these should not be removed from the page and need to be displayed prominently.

So no editing should be done on hunches and facts should be verified before putting any tag. Sudhirbh (talk) 15:40, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

There are articles for specific people and for specific wars etc. There is no need to engage in puffery concerning those subjects in this article. India does seem to have an obsession with martial matters but nonetheless Wikipedia does not exist to promote this or that place or person. - Sitush (talk) 08:18, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, there is no puffery about my writings any where, though the sentences are loaded with facts. It is like too much info in one sentence without using adjectives or adverbs. Too many facts may look like puffery. Secondly, your statement that Indians have obsessions with martial matters may only be partially true, in the sense, that last 1000 years' history of India during foreign occupation is written mostly by foreigners, and is not true. It has to be corrected with facts, so the effort. Wikipedia has done a great service by providing opportunity to put the facts slowly in true perspective. Thirdly, I am not promoting any individual or event here, but creating awareness of the facts. If Hemu had won 22 battles continuously spanning entire North India from Punjab to Bengal without losing any, before acceeding to Delhi throan, we have to write it as it is. I do not think there is any promotion or puffery here. Present writings on martial history etc. are ambiguous and citation given by me is considered 'promotional'. Writings need correction. Please advise how to go about it. 117.198.120.171 (talk) 06:32, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Just picking on one point, the number of battles won by Hemu is completely irrelevant to this article. - Sitush (talk) 19:28, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

File:RAO TULA RAM.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Proposal to merge articles on Rewari (city) and district into a composite article to prevent mechanical deletion of info

A lot of info or data in Rewari (city) article are being deleted by some editors for the reason that it pertains to Rewari district, not Rewari (city). The same info or data are not added to Rewari district article by that editor. For example, the section on martial history has been edited or deleted by an editor or editors for the reason that it does not pertain to Rewari city. Anyone even slightly familiar with Indian history of 1962 war would not have done that as the Battle of Rezang La and the supreme sacrifice made there by Indian army men are deeply ingrained in Indian psyche and this battle pertains to Rewari as such irrespective of hair-splitting between city and district but some editors mechanically delete info without even a slight knowledge of the subject matter of the section.

Therefore I propose to merge both the articles into a composite article on Rewari to obviate such deletions.

Rao Ravindra (talk) 11:19, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Oppose merge - we do not merge districts into articles about their principal city. There are numerous precedents which demonstrate this to be the case & if you wish to make an ad hoc exception then you would probably need to refer it to a wider audience, eg: WT:IN. If there are issues with Rewari district then go fix that article - just because that may have problems does not justify including irrelevant content in Rewari. Blaming other editors for doing nothing wrong is poor form, as I noted on your own talk page earlier today. - Sitush (talk) 11:55, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Oppose. It makes little sense, and it's contrary to our conventions, to merge two such articles. Sitush is right. Drmies (talk) 15:19, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Oppose Rewari is a city in Rewari district. Former has ~100 000 people, latter ~900 000. Should we merge New York State and New York City because they share the same name? Because that city contains a much greater percentage of its subdivision's population than the case which you're proposing. I'm sure your additions were helpful; they just need to go on the right page.

Dubious etymology

The article currently says

During the Mahabharata period in ancient India, a king named Rewat had a daughter named Rewati. The father used to call her Rewa, and founded a city "Rewa Wadi" named after her. Wadi and wada mean a neighbourhood (small and big, respectively) in Hindi and many other Indian languages. When Rewa married Balram, elder brother of Krishna, the king donated the city “Rewa-Wadi” as dowry to her daughter. In the course of time, the name Rewa-Wadi became Rewari.

but then goes on to say that the city was founded by Nand Ram.

Aside from the obvious contradiction, the Nand Ram point is sourced to a book that appears to contain footnotes etc, whereas the main statement is sourced to a very poor website that gives no indication of its sources, contains clear puffery and seems possibly to be relying on the hopelessly unreliable Mahabharata. It is not unknown for official websites in India to make up history and I have even been told that these things are sometimes unofficial additions within the official webspace. So, I would like to see some decent sources for the above quoted statement, please. - Sitush (talk) 13:53, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Since there has been no response to the above, despite numerous other edits to the article in the intervening time, I have just removed the section to which I referred. - Sitush (talk) 15:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

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Artist From Rewari

Shiva Dahiya is a Main Artist From Rewari 2409:4051:2E06:1E91:68E4:7C89:64BA:33F0 (talk) 01:04, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Recent changes

Rao akshay singh, there are multiple issues with the changes made by you with these edits.

First, the government documents – e.g. the State gazetteers cited by you – are not WP:HISTRS. So you need to replace them with scholarly sources. Similarly, this non-scholarly source needs to be replaced.

Second, this is a translated copy of a 17th/18th-century primary source. So you need to replace it with a secondary source.

Third, Shodganga is generally not considered a WP:HISTRS (see WP:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_290#Shodhganga_at_INFLIBNET) unless you can show that the thesis cited by you is recommended/suggested by some scholarly source. So please try to replace it with a better source.

Fourth, you didn't cite page numbers in some of the references provided by you. So please cite the page numbers properly.

Fifth, some of the names/details added by you seem unsourced.

Once you fix the issues mentioned by me, please propose the changes here and we will add them under the Medieval subsection, provided they meet the relevant policies of this project. Thanks. - NitinMlk (talk) 20:40, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Issue 1.

Replacement of Unscholarly source -

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=p69GMA226bgC&pg=PA50&dq=nand+sagar+rewari&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi0k6Tch_n3AhXCRmwGHWGuC6gQ6AF6BAgLEAM#v=onepage&q=nand%20sagar%20rewari&f=false

Replacement of both Gazetteer sources -

Rao Ruda singh - https://books.google.co.in/books?id=xzI-AAAAMAAJ&q=rao+ruda+Singh&dq=rao+ruda+Singh&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiWjqqLh_n3AhWbT2wGHTbcDvMQ6AF6BAgHEAM

Rao Ganga Bhishan -

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=2RKTigrrP1cC&pg=PA17&dq=ganga+bishan+14000&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjBneyHifn3AhUTRmwGHW2pAuMQ6AF6BAgMEAM#v=onepage&q=ganga%20bishan%2014000&f=false

Issue 2. I haven't used this source anywhere !!

Issue 3. Shodhganga is just an online repository of thesis and research paper. The thesis which I have cited is a scholarly work published under guidance of S K Manak HOD, department of history, PGRC, Rewari. His work was citied in "The Panjab past and present Volume 32"

Issue 4. Missing page numbers of the reference provided by me -

Since these references were from a single thesis source I am just mentioning page numbers here not the link

Rao gujarmal - page 32

Rao Ram Singh Bahadur II - page 34 &35

Issue 5. Some names unsourced -

Source for chronological order -

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=xzI-AAAAMAAJ&dq=rao+ruda+Singh&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Family+tree Rao akshay singh (talk) 22:14, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Rao akshay singh, please see WP:BRD and stop adding poorly sourced content in the article. Your present edit is nearly as problematic as the previous ones.

Issue 1: This source is authored by an army officer and published by a non-scholarly publisher. So it is not WP:HISTRS. The other source just mentions an Ahir zamindar of Haryana without giving any detail about his zamindari or his ruling dynasty. So you need to find a source which mentions that he belonged to the ruling dynasty of the Rewari estate. The third source provided by you is authored by the K. C. Yadav when he was only a postgraduate and is published by a Rao Tula Ram Smarak Samiti, which is not only a non-scholarly publisher but also seem like a caste organisation of Yadavs. So all three sources are inappropriate in different ways and the issue is not resolved.

Issue 2: No, you clearly used that translated primary source (without even providing any page number) to support the following detail of this edit: Rao Shahbaz Singh Bahadur - His reign witnessed major revolt against Aurangzeb. Please note that you also cited page no. 173 of Phadke's book, although there is no such detail on that page. And with your latest edit, you again added that detail with the same sources. So the issue is not resolved.

Issue 3: I know what Shodhganga is, but have you checked the the discussion link provided by me? So the unpublished thesis is cited only once and that too in a chapter authored by his guide. Maybe we can use it for uncontroversial facts, but you will need a scholarly source for WP:POV-related content.

Anyway, you used the thesis and this source to support the following claims: Rao gujarmal Singh Bahadur - He was most illustrious Ruler of Rewari and brought districts like Hansi, Hissar, Fatehabad under his control. He erected forts at Gokalgarh, Gurawara, Srinagar, Ramgarh etc and contribute massively to Ahirwal Architecture. Now please provide quotations from the cited sources which support the following claims: "most illustrious Ruler of Rewari"; brought Fatehabad district under his control; erected forts at Srinagar, Ramgarh; "and contribute massively to Ahirwal Architecture".

Issue 5: As I have already mentioned, this source "provided by you is authored by the K. C. Yadav when he was only a postgraduate and is published by a Rao Tula Ram Smarak Samiti, which is not only a non-scholarly publisher but also seem like a caste organisation of Yadavs." So you need a scholarly source for the chronology.

Finally, this article is about Rewari. So the details of the Rewari estate and its Ahir rulers belong here. But the past of those rulers doesn't belong here. Note that the Rewari state was formed during the rule of Aurangzeb. Here is the relevant quotation from page no. 154 of a scholarly source cited by you:

Similarly Hathi Singh Badgujar, a resident of village Dahana (modern Badshahpur), employed a band of Rajputs to carry on raid in the neighbouring area.¹⁹¹ Aurangzeb decided to deal with this problem diplomatically. He befriended Rao Nand Ram, an influential Ahir leader of village Bolani near Rewari, who helped him in capturing Hāthī Singh forcing him to surrender to the emperor. In token of his services the emperor granted Rao Nand Ram the jagir of Rewari along with its surrounding area. This was the beginning of the Rao estate of Rewari.

Before Aurangzeb granted the jagir of Rewari, he and his ancestors were head of a village named Bolani, which is some kilometres away from Rewari and is not relevant to this article. So the details relevant to this article should start with Rao Nand Ram.

Finally, as I mentioned earlier, please propose your changes here after fixing the issues mentioned by me in this and the previous post, rather than adding the poorly sourced content in the article directly. Also, please summarise the details in a paragraph or two, rather than using the bullet format, as other than Nand Ram and his two sons, namely Bal Krishna and Rao Gujarmal, there is hardly any coverage of other rulers of the estate. - NitinMlk (talk) 23:25, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=p69GMA226bgC&pg=PA50 This source has not been used by me anywhere😡 why are you asking me to replace it.

KC Yadav was renowned historian, all his initial works are consistent with his later works. Rao Tula ram smarak samiti is just a publisher here, but the author is a scholar.

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=QJNHAAAAMAAJ. This source on Rao gujarmal says exactly what I have mentioned, so What do you want me to show me when it already written in this reference. - Rao akshay singh (talk) 07:32, 26 May 2022 (UTC) redacted personal attacks – please follow WP:TALK#TOPIC. - NitinMlk (talk)

@Rao akshay singh: Maintain WP:CIVILITY and talk on the subject matter. Ad hominem attacks will get you into trouble. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:17, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Please give a counter argument of what I have replied earlier, where did I use that source which you asked me to replace?? And does the thesis say something other than what I had mentioned?? If not, then why are you so desperate to keep the chronology out of this page?? Rao akshay singh (talk) 17:28, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

First, I was asked on my talk page to crosscheck your edits. Before that request, I had neither ever edited this article nor even watchlisted it. So I would not have even noticed your edits without that post.

Second, you should not panic. As I have already mentioned, the details of the Rewari estate and its Ahir rulers belong to this article and will be added to it sooner or later. All we need is to properly source and summarise them.

Third, the source of the historian H. A. Phadke is available online: [1]. Its page numbers 173 and 154 succinctly describe the Rewari estate's origin, rise, fall, important rulers, etc. So you should summarise the relevant content from those pages in your own words (to avoid WP:COPYVIO) and propose the changes here. That will resolve all issues and we won't even need any other source.

Fourth, as far as the chronology is concerned, the estate came into existence during the Aurangzeb's rule and Nand Ram was its first ruler. So I have no issues with adding the chronology if you can provide reliable source(s) for it. If we don't have even their basic details, like the period of reign, then we can summarise the names of lesser-known rulers in a sentence.

Finally, although you didn't resolve the multiple issues raised by me in my previous posts, I am responding to the few points made by you in your latest post:

a) You mentioned that this source "has not been used by me anywhere", but you clearly cited it in your latest edit for the following details: Rao Nandram Singh Bahadur - He was a good administrator and commissioned large number of ponds and palaces thus contributing greatly to Ahirwal Style of Architecture.

b) As I have already explained, the author (K. C. Yadav) was not a historian then: he was only a postgraduate. And the caste organisations are anything but reliable about historical claims about their own caste.

c) If this "source on Rao gujarmal says exactly what" you "have mentioned", then you should be able to provide the relevant quotations which support the details mentioned by me earlier. So please provide them here so that others can croscheck them. - NitinMlk (talk) 20:17, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

First of all, I never wanted to tell this but I belong to a branch of Raos of Rewari. And it's me who knows more about Rewari than H A Phadke. I know which reference is right or which is wrong and which reference has half baked research.

1. You pointed out in one of your replies that the thesis by laxmi Narayan mentions that " Aurangzeb conferred jagir of Rewari to Rao Nandram then how, Rao Ruda singh was was the king when he was actually at bolni, which is about 12 km south of Rewari?" I can explain this. Actually Rewari was under Rao Ruda singh but Rewari had a brick fort at that time, and he commissioned a stone fort at bolni and shifted his residence to a more secure fort with better defences. Riyasat Rewari was taken away from the family many time only to be restored to their hier later on. It was taken away from Rao Shahbaz Singh due to his role in satnami movement but the state was restored to his son Rao Nandram. Some historians write partial history by just stating that "Rewari was conferred to Rao nandram by Aurangzeb" but they have left out the whole scenario that it was conferred to nandram by ceasing it from his father. References which mention that Rao Ruda Singh established the state in 1555 are historically true. This is why I have used multiple references, because none of them is wholly correct. I have chosen reference based on what was written correct in which reference.

2. You said I used Ma'asir al Umar reference and I said I didn't use. By mistake I used wrong link in the reference and thays how Ma'asir al Umar came up here. And I realized it just now that I had pasted wrong link here. Satnami revolt is well known part of history, so it is easy to get another reference for this part.

3. On Rao gujarmal - In the thesis I have mentioned, Page numbers 28 to 32 deals with history of Rao Gujarmal. This thesis has used KC Yadav, Abhirakuldipika, and govt. Archives as primary source. I am pasting exact lines here.-

"His Jagir now comprised important towns of Rewari, jhajjar, dadri, bhiwani, hansi, hissar, kanaud and narnaul." (Page 28 & 29)

"During his tenure the power of this family reached it's pinnacle". (Page 32). That's why I mentioned his as most illustrious Ruler of this dynasty.

"He erected forts at Gurawara and Gokalgarh" & " he erected mud forts at Ramgarh, jeetpur, Srinagar" (page 32)

4. The reference I had provided has exact chronology. I can even give there regnal dates from the primary sources at Rewari, but since none of the scholar has mentioned them in their books, I have nothing to give as reference, and that's why I didn't not write years of their tenures. Rao akshay singh (talk) 08:54, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

If you are related to the erstwhile ruling family in question, then you should see WP:COI. And you are not considered as a reliable source on this project. So your personal knowledge doesn't count. Dr. H. A. Phadke – a former professor of History at Kurukshetra University – is the reliable source here.

Now coming to the three points mentioned by you:

1. I neither mentioned the quoted text that you have attributed to me nor cited the thesis for the estate's origin-related details. I actually provided a quotation from page no. 154 of Phadke's book for that purpose. Ruda Singh was this dynasty's first ruler in the area close to Rewari, but he governed the nearby Bolni village. If you think he actually ruled Rewari, then please proivde a reliable source. Similarly, as explained on the page nos. 1 & 2 of the Yadav's source provided by you, his son Ram Singh built a fort at Bolni and the Mughal emperor Akbar appointed him Faujdar of the sarkar of Rewari in the Suba of Delhi. Ram Singh's son was Shahbaz Singh who died fighting against a daring robber of great notoriety. But none of them founded the Rewari estate. So, as I have already mentioned, "the details relevant to this article should start with Rao Nand Ram."

2. You cited that source by mistake. So you should be able to provide a source which mentions that the Rewari Riyasat was taken away from Rao Shahbaz Singh due to his role in satnami movement, as claimed by you in the point 1.

3. I asked you to provide quotations from the cited sources which support the following claims added by you with this edit: "most illustrious Ruler of Rewari"; brought Fatehabad district under his control; erected forts at Srinagar & Ramgarh; "and contribute massively to Ahirwal Architecture".

a) The quotation provided by you doesn't mention Fatehabad district.

b) The source states that the power of this family reached its pinnacle, which is very different from being the "most illustrious Ruler of Rewari", as that means he was the most illustrious ruler in the entire Rewari history, rather than being one in his own family.

c) You didn't provide the relevant quotation for the following: "and contribute massively to Ahirwal Architecture".

4. I have already mentioned the reason for the unsuitability of the provided source. But maybe we can summarise the lesser-known rulers in a short paragraph using it, although I will try to find a scholarly source for that purpose. - NitinMlk (talk) 22:17, 28 May 2022 (UTC)