Talk:Republic of Pirates

Redirect

Can someone who knows how please create a redirect linking Pirate Republic here? Spartan198 (talk) 10:30, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

 Done--DThomsen8 (talk) 15:18, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Religion: Puritan

Is there any verification for this? I find it hard to believe that a Pirate Republic would follow any form of belief that is close to puritanism. 24.68.6.7 (talk) 00:49, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Turks and Caicos Islands

There were also many pirate hideouts in the modern- day Turks and Caicos Islands. Can this be included as part of the Republic of Pirates? NorfolkIsland123 (talk) 22:01, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

As far as I understand, the pirate hideouts in the Turks and Caicos Islands were separate from the Pirate Republic, and not a part of it. Wiki the Octopus (talk) 16:40, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

The Jolly Roger

An edit war has been attempted on this page regarding the Jolly Roger in the Infobox. I'm stopping that now. This is a talk page section for a discussion of the Jolly Roger. Since the flag had remained on this page for years, it will remain until a consensus is made. RobotGoggles (talk) 03:08, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Do you Support or Oppose the inclusion of the Jolly Roger in the Infobox?

• Support - While I will grant that the Jolly Roger was not adopted by any committee or formal government to become the Republic's flag, every pirate flag was a "jolly roger". The skull and crossbones Jolly Roger is the most iconic and most recognizable, being used by several pirates during this time. Furthermore, the Republic lacked any formal government at all, there was no governing body to decide which flag was to be adopted. Instead, every pirate used their own for their own brand. Every one of these though, had a similar motif. Bones on a black background. This is the crux of my argument to maintain the Jolly Roger in the Infobox. Not only is this the most recognizable symbol of the Republic, not only was it historical and used by several pirates of the time, but it is symbolic of all the Jolly Rogers used by pirate captains at the time. There is no solid reasoning for why it should be removed. RobotGoggles (talk) 03:08, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - The "jolly roger" was something used by individual pirates on a personal basis as a symbol of identification for their ship and crew. The flag was not a symbol representing the Republic of Pirates as an entity, it was just used within it. This article is about the Republic of Pirates as the stronghold on Nassau, not an article about pirates in a general sense. Even if the skull-and-crossbones flag is symbolic of all of the different jolly rogers used in the time period and area, that does not mean that the jolly roger in general is a symbol that represented the Republic of Pirates in the same way that, say, the Flag of the United States represents the USA as a political entity. The flag section of the infobox exists to show the flag of the entity in question; the jolly roger was not the flag of the Republic of Pirates, it simply existed in it. Di (they-them) (talk) 03:31, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

This misses the point. If you were sailing in the Caribbean during this time period and saw this flag, you'd recognize it as a flag associated with the pirates in Nassau. Specific pirates had their own flags, but this simplified version was recognizable to everyone. That's the point of a flag, and it's why this flag should remain on this Infobox. The Jolly Roger was specific to these pirates at this time period, of this specific Republic. That's more than enough cause for inclusion. RobotGoggles (talk) 04:24, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

@RobotGoggles: A flag being associated with a region does not mean that it is the flag of that region. If you were to drive through the Southeastern US, you would see many houses flying a modern Confederate flag, and it would be very recognizable as a symbol associated with the people of the Southeastern US, but that does not mean that it is the flag of the Southeastern US. Despite there being flags associated with the Southeastern US and its people, there is no flag on the infobox for the page Southeastern United States. The same could be said for the page of the Northeastern United States and the Doug flag. The flag infobox exists to display the flag of the entity in question, not a flag that exists within it. Di (they-them) (talk) 19:50, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

This wasn't a region. It was a certifiable state. That's the difference. RobotGoggles (talk) 15:45, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

@RobotGoggles: The Republic of Pirates was not a state in any way. As it says in the very first sentence of the article, it was a stronghold of a loose confederacy of pirates, and not state or republic in any formal sense. You should read the article that you're talking about before trying to make assertions about it. Di (they-them) (talk) 20:34, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Excuse me? I have read the article. A loose confederacy is still a state, even if it doesn't fit our current definition of nation-state. Next you'll tell me that the Confederate States of America wasn't a state just because it was a loose confederation. Confederate states are still states, especially when they have a capital (Nassau) RobotGoggles (talk) 20:44, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

@RobotGoggles: The CSA was a state, not a loose confederation. It was not loose, it was an established government. This article itself explicitly says, and I quote, "Although not a state or republic in a formal sense, it was governed by its own informal 'Code of Conduct'." This is not a government and not a state. And regardless of that, it being a state wouldn't change the fact that the flag is not appropriate to use as a representation of the region in the same manner as a national flag. Di (they-them) (talk) 21:39, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

This is not "in the same manner as a national flag". It is merely a flag. The most symbolic flag of the Republic. The template for the country infobox doesn't say that the flag must be the national flag, in fact, the infox has a long laundry list of different symbol options. Not only that, but the template allows for custom symbols of countries that don't have flags, especially ancient countries that didn't symbolize themselves with flags. The Jolly Roger represents the Republic of Pirates. That's just a fact. The infobox template does not require official national flags, and since there was no "official" national flag, this flag, as a symbol, belongs in the article. There's a reason the flag has been on the article for years without removal. I'll return your obstinate rudeness back at you. Perhaps you should actually READ Template:Infobox country before commenting on what is proper and what is not. RobotGoggles (talk) 21:51, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

@RobotGoggles: No need for rudeness, I was never rude towards you. And in what way does the Jolly Roger specifically represent the Republic of Pirates? It is a flag that was used by pirates, not used to represent the territory itself. As I said, it was a flag used in the area, not the flag of the area. Show a Jolly Roger to ten people who study the golden age of piracy, and none will tell you that it is the flag of the Republic of Pirates. Including it as such is misleading and incorrect. You can claim that it represents the territory by association, but association is not the same as being directly representative. If you wish to include such information, please provide a citation that it is the flag of the territory.Di (they-them) (talk) 22:00, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

You do realize that in this thread, you accused me of not reading this article? You were extremely rude, you can't just condescend to me like that and then pretend like you were never rude towards me. Beyond rude, I was merely defending the inclusion of a flag on one Wikipedia article. The flag represents the Republic in the same way that the Stars and Cross represent the Confederate States of America. It wasn't the official flag, and in fact, the Confederate States of America article features the offical Bonny Blue Flag. Unfortunately though, the Pirates never decided on a unified flag, and the Jolly Roger is a representation, a simplification of all of them.. Without a flag in the infobox, we are left with absolutely no symbolism, only a map, and it's not even a map of the Republic, it's just a map of modern-day Bahamas. The flag is representative enough to stand as a symbol of the Republic. Are you going to tell me I should go and read the Jolly Roger article or something? RobotGoggles (talk) 06:26, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - For disclosure reasons, I was lured here via the Wikipedia Discord chat, but nevertheless have a knowledge in maritime affairs. A ship ensign is not equitable to a state's flag. Naval ensigns have existed for a long time (see White Ensign which existed during the same period), and naval flags are not used on shore unless related to the naval institution itself. Provide a source that the Jolly Roger flag was flown on land and represented a state, instead of the ships they were flown on. Seloloving (talk) 23:35, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I understand that it is not the same, but nowhere in Template:Infobox country does it say that the flag must be the official state flag of the country. It's just one option out of many. A naval ensign can be used as a symbol of a state, especially when it's the only symbol of that state. Your point about a reliable source is fair enough, but if it's sources we're looking for, then we should put a Template:Citation needed in the infobox instead of removing the flag wholesale. As a pirate Republic, most of the governing was by pirates on their ships, not in Nassau itself. The island was merely their base of operations, not their sole territory. RobotGoggles (talk) 06:26, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

• Weak support: I'm no enthusiast for sticking flags on everything. That said, in the context of stickng flags on everything, this looks...fine? The big consideration for me for something like this is what readers expect, and I believe readers will expect to see this. RobotGoggles' opening argument is convincing to me, and more or less a longer way of stating my own thought: this is the 'expected'/'default' position and I see no good reason to ditch it. All that said, the discussion above looks like it could do with turning down the heat a bit. Vaticidalprophet 06:54, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support. Oppose using it in the context of {{infobox country}} unless, at the very least, a source can be found connecting it to this topic in some fashion. Putting it there definitely gives the impression that it's an official flag. (Honestly perhaps the underlying issue is that we should not be using {{infobox country}} at all; while it is referred to as the "republic of pirates" I don't think many sources really consider it a country. If we weren't using that infobox we could possibly use the Jolly Roger or some other image of piracy from that era and location as a lead image without the implications that are causing problems here.) Striking my previous opinion after serching through The Republic of Pirates: Being the True and Surprising Story of the Caribbean Pirates and the Man Who Brought Them Down, which is probably the definitive book on this topic. While of course they weren't a formal country and therefore lacked a formal flag, Woodard does describe them as using it to represent loyalty to the Republic of Pirates: Vane, who had Jacobite sympathies, could not have been pleased when he read King George’s proclamation. He was furious when he saw his less-committed colleagues celebrating atop the fort beneath the newly raised British flag. Vane’s faction rallied to the main square, which soon filled with hundreds of armed and angry men. They rushed the walls of the adjacent fort, evicted the revelers within, and pulled the Union Jack down from the flagpole. In its place they hoisted a flag that left no ambiguity about their allegiance: “the Black Flag with the Death’s Head in it.” He also describes some other pirate forts flying the flag to indicate their allegiance. I think that that's sufficient to include it in the infobox. --Aquillion (talk) 23:00, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Africans and Irishmen?

"Africans and Irishmen could be equal members of the crew"

Why list these two groups together as if they otherwise shared equal status? Africans were enslaved in the Caribbean (including by Irishmen), and their status as slaves was enshrined in race laws. There were no laws in the Anglo-Caribbean targeting "Irishmen" - there were laws that discriminated against Catholics, but they applied equally to English Catholics and all white Catholics in English possessions. And of course this line is unsourced.

Come on, there is a problem on this encyclopedia with Irish content of this kind seeping its way into articles on colonialism and related subjects. In light of the fact that there's an Irish slaves myth circulating on the internet, centered in the Caribbean, more care should be taken here (and I'm very familiar with this subject, and was one of the editors who contributed to the ISM article).Jonathan f1 (talk) 09:07, 19 May 2022 (UTC)