Talk:Renaissance World Tour

Counting

I was wondering if since Verizon Ladies First Tour, On the Run Tour and On the Run II Tour are all co-headlining tours, should this tour be counted as her ninth (so we are counting the total number of tours she has done under her name) or should we disregard her co-headlining ones from the count and consider it her sixth solo concert tour? — Status (talk · contribs) 20:22, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

MOS:ACCESS violations

The current set up of the page violates MOS:ACCESS guidelines, which must be followed. The edit, as seen here, follows MOS:ACCESS guidelines, as well as follows MOS:DTAB requirements. Using the excuse of "other tour articles use this set up," which is not only a lie but also an unacceptable excuse, is not permitted. MOS guidelines are ever-changing, and we must adhere to them. 17:15, 2 February 2023 (UTC) livelikemusic (TALK!) 17:15, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

@IndianBio, Ojorojo, Sricsi, Ss112, and Status: Pinging some other users who I know edit music articles and I've seen across touring articles, etc, who hold a high regard as editors, to join a hopeful discussion. livelikemusic (TALK!) 17:38, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

[responding to ping] I'm surprised there are still arguments over this. The WikiProject Concerts page has included a Style subsection on WP:CONCERT TOUR#Tables for several years. Part of the problem may be that some editors are engaged in original research when they identify tour "legs" whenever there are dates on different continents. In preparing and reviewing several tour GAs, I've found that reliable sources do not consistently identify separate legs. WP articles should only use what reliable sources use; in the absence of officially designated legs, editors should not be inventing their own based on continents. Just because a venue in Egypt is in between a series of dates in Europe or one in Australia during several in Asia, does not mean that there is a separate African or Oceania leg.

Listing continents may be a holdover from earlier years when musicians traveling afar was seen as something special. Now, touring to areas once "off the beaten path" is routine. In other WP music articles, such as for singles, albums, and discographies, tables are not organized by continent and only list the country. If reliable sources actually identify and name legs, these may be organized by separate tables as shown in Live's edit link. Otherwise, it seems like unnecessary busy work and clutters the tables.

—Ojorojo (talk) 17:12, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Definitely agree with the above! That's something that's bothered me for a while and maybe the solution is to just have all of the dates in one table. If it's a tour that spans over multiple years, it would make sense to just have a separate table for each year. The Chromatica Ball for example lists 4 separate legs, which is just based off of the fact that she switched continents four times between shows. But for the promotional material for the tour, all the shows are just listed together and no legs are denoted at all. — Status (talk · contribs) 18:05, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

I think it comes down to certain users wanting to fluff articles with unnecessary information, based on how things used to be, and not what MOS calls for. I think a one-table merge is smart, but it will likely take great effort to make it stick. Like your example, Status, the Denim & Rhinestones Tour lists all dates in one table, and while there is some push back, it is a much neater, cleaner look in comparison to multiple tables, or even one table with ! colspan, which violates MOS terms. livelikemusic (TALK!) 01:50, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

For a majority of WP tour articles that don't have reliable sources that designate legs, a simple one-table layout is best. It's unfortunate that tour articles have attracted so much tendentious editing/sockpuppetry. However, as per WP:BURDEN, "Any material lacking an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source". So, it's not up to others to find and add reliable sources: the burden is upon the editors who want to add legs to prove that reliable sources (such as the artist's management or promoter as opposed to user generated-type websites) have actually designated them. It is much simpler to block an editor who repeatedly re-adds unsourced/unreliably sourced material under WP:Disruptive editing than for not following WP:ACCESSIBILITY. —Ojorojo (talk) 15:30, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

@Ojorojo and Status: There is now debate about whether the start_date and end_date should be used prior to the tour starting? This has always been the case (inclusion), and is now in-question? What does everyone think of this? livelikemusic (TALK!) 22:37, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Griffindaly has been citing WP:CRYSTAL, which seems to apply to article creation and not specifically about listing reliably-sourced future dates. The documentation at Template:Start date includes "This purpose of the {{start date}} template is to return the date (or date-time) that an event or entity started or was created, and to do so in a standard format." It uses the past tense, but that may be an oversight; Template:End date only states "This template ({{End date}}) returns a date, or date-time". If it were important, it seems that it should also include "do not use until the end date has passed" or similar. Depending on what Griffindaly has to say, perhaps the issue should be raised at Template talk:Start date. The constant back and forth in concert tour articles with no talk page discussion is definitely not the way to handle things. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:29, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

livelikemusic, Status: It's been a week and the editors who cited WP:CRYSTAL have not provided any further explanation. What they didn't include in their quotes from that policy is the wording that specifically allows for future events: "A schedule of future events may be appropriate if it can be verified. As an exception, even highly speculative articles about events that may or may not occur far in the future might be appropriate, where coverage in reliable sources is sufficient." In this case, a concert tour by a major artist that is scheduled to begin in two months with reports in multiple reliable sources should meet the requirements. Perhaps at some point, some of the issues raised so far can be addressed in the WP:CONCERT project page in order to more easily resolve some of the edit warring over seemingly routine issues. —Ojorojo (talk) 15:40, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Synopsis

Is no one gonna write a synopsis?? The tour is 3 nights in! Kamo0606 (talk) 18:59, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

I already wrote it but on the Spanish-speaking Wikipedia, with a brief production stage and clothing design section. References are already archived, I haven't done yet in English WP since I do not feel ready to properly translate 2806:2F0:7080:31EF:39A6:B340:3B93:2F00 (talk) 02:48, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. Please take your time with it. ❤️ Kamo0606 (talk) 03:59, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Tour dates

Who deletes the attendance and revenue columns of the tour dates section and why did you do that? How do we return the full tour dates table back? RegularboyA (talk) 21:32 14 May 2023 (UTC) RegularboyA (talk) 02:32, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2023

It needs changes on the number of attendance and revenue Charyarrow3 (talk) 15:47, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cocobb8 (💬 talk to me! • ✏️ my contributions) 16:13, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Attendance edit

total London attendance should be changed to 238,000 - Tottenham states this is the total attendance for the London shows at their stadium during her residency. source: https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/2023/june/beyonce-wraps-five-incredible-sold-out-nights-on-renaissance-world-tour/ Gots2bkidding (talk) 22:39, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Opening acts????

According to many sources, producer Arca opened the show in Barcelona. Should it be included somewhere in the article? Source: https://pitchfork.com/news/watch-arca-dj-beyonces-renaissance-tour-stop-in-barcelona/ Androptrnt (talk) 11:36, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

I was confused about the lack of information on opening acts in the article as well. In addition to Arca in Barcelona, DJ Khaled has opened the past two shows in Los Angeles. https://z100.iheart.com/content/2023-09-03-dj-khaled-opens-beyoncs-renaissance-tour-in-la-with-all-star-lineup/

Most tour pages on here have a column for opening acts in the tour date table. I believe this page should have the same. --Damage Ensues (talk) 23:11, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

when arca first opened i added that info in the synopsis section… including all the openers in the tour dates section is tricky because other than arca and khaled there hasn’t been much media coverage so i’m not sure if it would be possible to source all of the other DJs… Griffindaly (talk) 00:18, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 June 2023

Add a note in the 'Set list' section mentioning that Beyoncé skipped Love on Top and Rather Die Young at the second Warsaw show. Hearlparbor (talk) 20:24, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 20:33, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Anointed/Church Girl - Set List

The end of "Anointed" / beginning of "Church Girl" contains elements (the ascending scale) of "Ha Ya" by The Clark Sisters beyond what is sampled and interpolated in "Family Feud."

Live performance sample; Original song; Compare to the sample and interpolation in "Family Feud" 24.61.202.177 (talk) 20:04, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

More Possible Necessary Set List Edits

1. Shouldn't it be noted that the version of "Black Parade" performed is the Extended Version, or contains elements from it? "Cuff It" and "Break My Soul" are both noted as incorporating their respective remixes. Live performance; Extended version; Compare to orignal song

2. Shouldn't the "Pure/Honey" ballroom dance break outro include the elements it contains since all the other interludes do? Would ideally look something like:

"Pure/Honey" (contains elements of "Blow" and followed by ballroom dance break outro, containing elements of "Cuff It", "The Ha Dance", and "Summer Renaissance")

Not sure this is comprehensive (e.g., not sure where the trumpet sample comes from), so someone with a better knowledge of house and ballroom music should go through a live performance and make sure all included elements are updated. Still think it's inconsistent not to mention the elements included in the outro. 24.61.202.177 (talk) 22:17, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Listening tickets

Which dates are selling/sold "listening" tickets? "Listening" tickets have a restricted view of the stage. (Fran Bosh (talk) 15:03, 5 August 2023 (UTC))

East Rutherford onwards. This could be a possible reference if we're to include it but seems unnecessary; Eras Tour is selling same tickets under different name but has no mention of it on its page. 24.61.202.177 (talk) 22:35, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Linkage

The Renaissance World Tour should be linked to the highest grossing tours of all time pages as it is the 6th highest grossing tour of the 2020s decade thus far. Additionally in the commercial performance section it should be noted that Beyoncé holds the highest and second highest single date tour grosses for a female musician (touring data has the breakdown of statistics) and it should state the it is her highest grossing tour of her career. Pvalley955 (talk) 21:13, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2023

On the setlist topic, its referred as if on the “Renaissance interlude” the song DELRESTO(echo) wasn’t included. Wich has been played since its release week. 200.101.209.226 (talk) 20:49, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 06:37, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 August 2023

Change "BT Murrayfield" to "Scottish Gas Murrayfield" as title sponsor has changed. Croomp (talk) 18:44, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: venue information should refer to the name of the venue at the time the concert actually took place, regardless of whether it was later changed.

Griffindaly (talk) 19:41, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Repeated inappropriate removals by Ronherry

Hi Ronherry! As I suggested, it would be best to discuss removals on the talk page. Can you please explain why you have removed perfectly appropriate content from the lead and body of this Beyonce-related article? Just saying "copypasted" and "unreliable sources" (when these aren't true) is not sufficient when trying to start an edit war. Thanks! Bgkc4444 (talk) 09:29, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Well, if you calm down, you'll notice that the superfluous factoids that were supported by bad/unreliable sources have been removed while comprehensive prose supported by good/reliable sources have been restored (to my credit). You do not seem to care for WP:RS, but you should. It's compliance. And then, yes, the third paragraph of the older Lead seems to have been copied word-to-word from another article, which should not be the case. Renaissance tour is its own unique thing, and deserves its own prose summarizing its contents, and not some fancruft trying to imitate something else. Renaissance tour did not cause a wide Ticketmaster controversy/discourse except some website crashes nor the word "unprecedented" is mentioned anywhere in the article with regards to ticket sales, but somehow both Ticketmaster and "unprecedented ticket sales" found themselves in the lead, which is misleading and a case of WP:UNDUE. I wanted to revise/clean-up the whole article (every single section) for obscure sources and factoids to push it closer to WP:GA quality but decided to stick to the recently added content first. ℛonherry☘ 13:05, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

To summarize, please do not add bad/unreliable sources and make sure the lead stays concise while summarizing the article with due weightage. Regards. ℛonherry☘ 13:07, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Best regards to you too :)

As I don't want this conversation to descend into personal attacks as I have faced from you heavily in the past, I just want to remind you that civility is one of Wikipedia's pillars. Your accusations against me and telling me to "calm down" are highly inappropriate - please consider this a warning.

Will you please be able to show me which article the lead copied "word-to-word" from a different article? Searches on Wikipedia and Google offer no results. The valid lead that you removed doesn't say that it caused "a wide Ticketmaster controversy" - that's your interpretation of it. The lead said that it caused Ticketmaster to crash, which the article reports. I can't understand why any editor would want this positive information reported in the article to be removed from the lead.

If you removed content referenced with unreliable sources then of course they would be valid, but you are removing content referenced to sources such as the New York Times, USA Today and The Verge.

Now again, this is inappropriate, and of course I know you're well aware of this so I don't think I need to go into the importance of editing articles from a neutral point of view, whether we agree or disagree with the topic. This applies to every Wiki editor. Bgkc4444 (talk) 14:10, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not gonna address what I've already addressed. Clearly, there were no "inappropriate removals" but only removal of portions of the prose you added that did not comply with WP:RS. Do not try to deflect from the subject of this discussion. I'll repeat my point; please abstain from adding bad/unreliable sources/citations, please use professional/encyclopedic language, abide WP:PEACOCK, follow WP:ATTRIBUTION if you want to directly quote an author's exact same words (though minimally) and please make sure the lead stays concise while summarizing the article with due weightage. Not all information covered in an article becomes lead-worthy. Only the most notable/significant facts do. Hope this helps. ℛonherry☘ 15:31, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

You have never actually addressed my points so I hope you can engage in this discussion, instead of just trying to force a point of view in this article and refuse to discuss it. Again, please show me which article the lead copied "word-to-word" from a different article. Again, in what world are sources such as the New York Times, USA Today and The Verge so unreliable that content sourced to them should be removed? Thanks! Bgkc4444 (talk) 07:30, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

(a) From the Eras Tour, clearly, which you already knew. The same section titles, prose phrasings and style emerged on the RWT article right after they were originally added in the Eras article. (b) NYT, USA Today etc are all reliable sources; I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about "The Thrillist", "Zoe Report", "Essence" and "Verge Magazine" sources that you added; they're unreliable/bad sources. ℛonherry☘ 09:32, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

1. How is it "clearly" true when clearly the lead from this article was not "copypasted" "word-to-word" from the article about taylor swift's tour? That article's lead says "the tour had an impact evident in form of unprecedented demand, ticket sales, and venue records worldwide". The lead you deleted from this article said "Stadiums saw unprecedented demand for tickets, with millions joining online queues and the Ticketmaster site crashing." Please explain how this copy-pasting word-for-word?
2. Those section titles on this page have nothing to do with the section titles on that other article? The titles "pre-sale" and "general sale" were added (by someone else, might I add) when those two sales were opened (see here), not when it was added to a completely unrelated article that you were editing. Wikipedia is for everyone; not all articles are (or should be) written through the lens of a certain perception of musical artists.
3. If you think sources such as NYT and USA Today are reliable then why remove them from the article as you did here? Bgkc4444 (talk) 12:56, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

   1. Did you go through the edit histories of both the articles or not? The current lead of the Eras Tour is a new, highly condensed one. The previous RWT article lead was derivative of the previous Eras Tour article lead, which I fixed and you have a problem with.

   2. Even a while ago, you changed the title of the "Tributes" section as "Honors" just like the Eras Tour. No other tour article had a "Honors" section as seen with the Impact of the Eras Tour before this. The same with the prose under "Ticketing", another first-instance title copypasted to this article.

   3. Did you go through the edit history properly? I removed the poorly formatted NYT and USA Today sources and re-added them immediately with corrected parameters. You do not seem to care about good sourcing and reference parameters. ℛonherry☘ 14:38, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

   1. Yes, have you? Again, the lead you removed from this article was not "copypasted" "word-to-word" from the eras tour article. That is a fact. The diff from the time the lead was added to this article shows that. Please show me the diffs and text showing how the two leads were the same. It shouldn't be so hard to prove this point you've been trying to push for a while
   2. Please respond to my point and don't deflect
   3. Please stop assuming my intentions (WP:GF). Of course I went through the edit summaries, which is why I keep linking a diff showing the removals you made after you re-added certain bits of text. Even after you re-added those bits of text, you still removed content cited to reliable sources such as NYT and USA Today. That is a fact. Bgkc4444 (talk) 07:46, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

      No, I have already stated why your edits were reverted/overhauled. There's nothing further to say. You added fancruft and I removed it; easy as that. Your insistence in failing to understand that my edits on this article were only safeguarding a basic rule of Wikipedia (No misleading content or bad sources) tells me that you do not seem to care about the quality of the article but only intend to inject it with more fancruft and puffery. You want to drown me in your lawyering, but I do not encourage that. Twist this however you want. Regards. ℛonherry☘ 13:53, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

      It's not conducive to a productive discussion to repeatedly make disparaging claims about my edits (which I have shown are untrue using diffs and edit histories, instead of just repeatedly asserting my opinion) and then refuse to engage in a constructive discussion, instead of simply showing me the supposed wretched acts I've committed to this article. Bgkc4444 (talk) 12:49, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

      Wait what's the teaaaa the girls are fighting!!!!

      (Sorry I just had to comment this) WeNeverGoOutOfStyle (talk) 03:40, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Tour Gross

Touring Data just updated the tour gross for the Renaissance World Tour. It has grossed 461.2 million dollars drom 2.2 million tickets so far. 190.108.215.225 (talk) 18:11, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Stop fooling around official tour numbers.

The revenue changed, Why? 72.27.125.21 (talk) 20:35, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

River Deep-Mountain High

Why has "River Deep-Mountain High" been removed from the Opening section of the setlist when she performed the song at the majority of the tour's stops? Capricornsgroove (talk) 22:16, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

the best quality sources are those presenting the setlist for opening night, so that’s what’s being shown as the representative setlist. changes, such as the addition of the river deep mountain high cover, are described in the notes Griffindaly (talk) 22:21, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Black American Music

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 August 2023 and 18 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): 22angelique, Sabirdie (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Isha0323 (talk) 19:31, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 March 2024

Setlist "Energy" contains elements of "Milkshake" by Keils Lezomaj (talk) 22:21, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Jamedeus (talk) 01:02, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 April 2024

In the song “Black Parade” , there are elements of the song “Formation” which you can hear in the intro. 70.182.58.239 (talk) 00:21, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Staraction (talk | contribs) 04:20, 10 April 2024 (UTC)