Talk:Reichskommissariat Ukraine

Untitled

Die Angaben über die deutsche Verwaltungsgliederung der Ukraine, soweit sie den Generalbezirk Nikolayewsk betreffen, sind unzutreffend (wrong). N., eine Kleinstadt 200km nördlich Wolgograd am linken, östlichen Ufer der Wolga, liegt weit von der Ukraine entfernt in Russland (früher Russische Sowjetrepublik.), Ich vermute, hier ist die Großstadt Nikolajew mit der Kleinstadt Nikolayewsk verwechselt worden. Nikolajew liegt auf dem linken, östlichen Ufer des Südlichen Bug, also außerhalb am Rande des rumänischen Interessengebietes, 20km oberhalb des Dnjepr-Bug-Liman, der gemeinsamen Mündung der beiden Flüsse in das Schwarze Meer.

Sorry, don't speak German. As this is the English Wiki, could someone that the following on line translation is correct:

The data concerning the German administrative arrangement of the Ukraine, as far as they concern the general district Nikolayewsk, are unfounded (wrong). N., a town 200km north Wolgograd on the left, eastern bank of the Volga, lies far far away from the Ukraine in Russia (in former times Russian Soviet republic), I assumes, here the large city Nikolajew with the town Nikolayewsk was confounded. Nikolajew is appropriate for southern nose, thus outside at the edge of the Romanian sphere of interest, on the left, eastern bank 20km above the Dnjepr nose Liman, the common delta of the two rivers into the black sea.

Folks at 137 11:23, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Much like the article on reichscomisariat Ostland this article wildly exaggerates the SS' influence which afer april 41 became completely negligeble following the creation of Arbeitsberiechsost which gave the regional komissares absolute powers over all forces in their jurisdiction including much of the SS let alone the police. It is time that articles concerned with Nazi germany reflected advanced scholarship rather than misconceptions about the "mighty" SS popular in the 1950's. I refer specifically to Martin Dean's book Collaboration in the Holocaust the articles by Eric Haberer and, with some qulifications, the work done by Wendy Lower and last but least the long published (1973) book by Deitrich Orlow THe Nazi Party Organisation 1933-1945 and even earlier works by Pete Hutenberger which first demolished the silly myth of the mighty SS. I shall later correct this antiquated fallacies

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I'll try to rewrite this article. Taivaansusi 09:57, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

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Information on the new map. I created this based on text descriptions of the territorial divisions of RKU and an administrative map of the raions of Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1940. There are some areas that are debatable due to certain Kreisgebiete only consisting of parts of raions (e.g. Hegewald in Shitomer).

XrysD 13:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Realm's Commissionerate of Ukraine

Isn't the translation of Reichskommissariat Ukraine into English as Realm's Commissionerate of Ukraine?

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 23:22, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Might be, but the German version remains better. That English version sounds archaic and clumsy. Direct English language translations don't always work and German titles such as Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, u-boat are acceptable. English is a friendly language and will adopt suitable foreign terms.... see List of German expressions in English. Folks at 137 (talk) 07:11, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Hello Folks at 137

I agree that the German term is completely acceptable in English articles. What I am suggesting is with regards to the "Info-box" in the corner, and the translated Name(s),

Reichskommissariat Ukraine (de) (German)

Райхскомісаріат Україна (uk) (Ukrainian)

Ukraine Reich Commission (English)

The item is question is the (previously) proposed English translation of the Ukraine Reich Commission. This translation is incorrect. A Commission has a Commissioner (also known as a Commissar). The Commissionership of a Commissioner is also termed a Commissionerate. The correct term here would be the Realm's Commissionerate of Ukraine. ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 17:15, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I see what you're commenting on. I stick to my comment that to me, as a native English speaker, "Realm's Commissionerate" reads badly, however it's derived. Word by word: although "reich" in isolation means "realm" or similar, I understand that as part of a compound noun, it's better translated as "national" (see List of German expressions in English). As a native English speaker living in an English speaking country and with connections in other English speaking countries, I've never heard the words "commissionerate" or "commissionship" or "commissiar" (or should this be "commissar". They're certainly not in normal use and my copy of the Concise Oxford Dictionary doesn't include them.

"Reich" can be seen as a word now absorbed into English, with specific reference to the Third Reich, which in the context of this article, is spot-on. I'd be less bothered by the logical translation of the term "Reichscommissariat", than by a correct representation of the actual nature of the entity. Perhaps "Reich Government" or "Reich Authority". Just a thought. "Realm's Commissionerate" is, IMO, nonsense and reads like a computer mis-translation. IMHO, but I would support a call for opinions from one of the German interest projects. Regards, Folks at 137 (talk) 20:45, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Hello Folks at 137.

How the translation "Realm's Commissionerate" sounds to you, is not the issue. The issue here is what the translation of "Reichskommissariat" (German) into English actually is.

Commissionership (4 dictionary results)

http://dictionary.reference.com/

(related word)

Commissioner

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/commissionership

a government official or representative in charge of a department or district: the police commissioner; the commissioner of a colony.

commissioner (noun), commissionership (noun), subcommissioner (noun), subcommissionership (noun).

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

And "commissionerate"!? "Realm" is usually specific to a monarchy and is usually used in formal or archaic senses. No wish to argue - I'll see if there's a consensus among people better informed than me. I've dropped invitations/calls to arms at some relevant talk pages. Hope it's useful Folks at 137 (talk) 09:28, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

BTW, had a look at the dictionary links you provided. "Commissionership" is not defined as itself: the 4 hits are definitions of "commissioner", a word in common use with >1 meaning. This is repeated on other dictionary sites: a commissioner is a member of a commission, not a "commissionership". If "Commissionership" has a meaning then it's probably "the post of commissioner" not his physical department - anyway, you don't propose to use it, so I'll back off that one. Folks at 137 (talk) 10:21, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Hello Folks at 137.

I am proposing that the Reichskommissariat is the jurisdiction that is run by a Reichskommissar. In other words, the Realm's Commissionerate is the Colony of the Greater German Reich, which is run by the Realm's Commissar (i.e, Realm's Commissioner). I am proposing the very thing that you are dismissing. The translation from German to English supports my assertion (i.e., a Commissionership that is run by a Commissioner). Look at it this way, the Reichskommissariat is a Province and the Reichskommissar is it's Colonial Governor. ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 11:24, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Your first sentence is not disputed. My contention is that "Realm" is an incorrect word in this context and that "Commissionerate" is not an English word - irrespective of its derivation. But I will, as always, go with the consensus of opinion. Folks at 137 (talk) 12:48, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand how saying that a Reichskommissariat is a jurisdiction or a colony or a province would lead to the English term "commissionerate". As the article says, a Reichskommissariat is an office, an organisation, an administration, in this particular case for an occupied territory; it is headed by a Reichskommissar. Neither "commissionerate" nor "commissionary" (as wrongly claimed in Reichskommissar) are English words. The term "realm" is an unnecessary archaism where "Reich" works perfectly well. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:44, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Hello Michael Bednack.

The word Commissionerate is an English word. It is used in the Republic of India to designate a group of Police Precincts (i.e., a Commissionerate) run by a Police Commissioner (you see ... a Commissionerate (a Jurisdiction, a District) is run by a Commissioner).

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=Commissionerate&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 02:51, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm fine with Reich. I would tend to translate "Reich" by "empire", but you don't actually do that. But "commission" seems queer to me. The commissariat (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/commissariat) is not a commission in charge of administrative duties, but the administrative unit itself. "Province" might do (sounds a bit too integrated, though, and not sufficiently colonial), as might the literal "commissariat", as possibly might (by analogy) "prefecture". G Purevdorj (talk) 19:17, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Kaiserreich, Caesar(s)realm, Emperor(s)realm, Emperorrealm ... Empire.

Königreich, King(s)realm ... Kingdom

Österreich, Österrealm, Easternrealm, Austuria ... Austria

Bischofreich, Bischofrealm, Bishoprealm ... Bishopric

Reich is Realm.

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 02:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

We should be basing this, not on what 'we' think is right, but on authoritative sources e.g. a recognised, authoritative English history of the Third Reich. My 1,300-page German-to-English only dictionary (Langenscheidt Muret-Sanders Großwörterbuch Deutsch-Englisch, 2004) gives the translation of Reich as in das deutsche Reich as "the (German) Reich", backing the argument that "Reich" in this context is an accepted English word. It gives Kommissariat as "commissionership" when used in the sense of an office (Amt) and "commissioner's office" when used in the sense of an authority (Behörde). My English dictionary (The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English, 1995) has both "Reich", in the sense of the Third Reich, and "commissariat" in the sense of a government department in the USSR before 1946. It does not have "commissionership" or "commissionerate" at all. My proposal is that we leave the table as is until we find an authoritative source that we can quote as a reference, although I would also support a change to "Ukraine Reich Commissariat" based on the above findings. --Bermicourt (talk) 10:52, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Reich should be left as it stands, as per Bermicourt above (and common sense, really — it's not just any realm we are dealing with here, and Reich as an English expression has indeed come to mean the Third Reich only, very specifically). For Kommissariat we should stick to the English term most commonly used, and not to a supposedly "more fitting" translation that sounds nothing short of bizarre. The only thing "commissionership" applies to is the function or office of the commissioner himself, neither his departement, his jurisdiction or even the area under his authority. The term "commission" on the other hand is, for me at least, an assembly (task force) or the act of being installed in an office. The only thing I've found in WW2 literature that is not German (retaining the German term is the most common solution, really, but apparently we are really looking for an English version here) is Commissariat, which is also common usage for Soviet commissariats (well, look at that, even I am using it right now). In that sense, I second Bermicourt's translation "Ukraine Reich Commissariat" and fully concur with him in every possible respect. Trigaranus (talk) 11:33, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Since the original Name of the Administrative District was the Reichskommissariat Ukraine how about the Reichs Commissariat of Ukraine? At least that preserves the word order of the German-to-English translation in question (e.g., the word order, Königreich England to Kingdom of England). ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 14:43, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Realm's Commissionerate ... Governorate ... Province (State, in the USA)

The terms Realm's Commissionerate ... Governorate ... Province (State, in the USA) all refer to the same thing, an Administrative Jurisdiction that is run by an Administrator. Please refer to the Wikipedia article on Governorate.

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 03:05, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Additional note,

Goverornate(s) of the Russian Empire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Governorates_of_the_Russian_Empire

The term Governorate directly translates to Province. As well, the term Russian Empire translates to Russische Kaiserreich, or Russische Tsarreich (depending on whether one prefers Kaiserreich, or Tsarreich). ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 03:19, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Just googled "commissionerate" and it is in wide official use - but only in India, as far as I can see. It still does not figure on any dictionary site and I'm unaware of its use anywhere else in the English speaking world. Certainly not in the UK, where we do have commissioners (eg Metropolitan Police) or in the US (AFAIK). The criticism that it doesn't sound right was dismissed - wrongly, IMO, as an awkward, inaccessible usage will simply be dismissed and will not enlighten readers. The latter is the purpose of wiki.

The justification for "reich = realm" does have historic support, but it's not unusual for words to have multiple uses or meanings. "Realm" implies a certain type of state to do with royalty - "reich" has been used more widely, by states led by Kaisers, the Weimar Republic and by a fascist dictatorship. Neither of the latter two could be described in English by "realm". Folks at 137 (talk) 17:21, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Hello Folks at 137.

First off, a Governorate is run by a Governor, and a Commissionerate is run by a Commissioner. I firmly believe that the intelligence-level of the average Wikipedia reader is high enough that they will be able "to follow" that.

Secondly, the usage of the word Reich as a Realm is a very ancient vein-of-thought,

In the past...

Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation (888-1806)

Kaisertum Österreich (1804-1867)

Kaiserliche und Konigliche Österreich-Ungarn (1867-1918)

Deutsches Kaiserreich (1871-1918)

Königreich Island (1918-1944)

In todays Kingdoms in Europe...

Vereinigtes Königreich Großbritannien und Nordirland

Königreich der Niederlande

Königreich Belgien

Königreich Spanien

Königreich Dänemark

Königreich Norwegen

Königreich Schweden

In the structure of the word Kingdom ...

(English): Kingdom, King(s)realm

(German): Königreich

(Dutch): Koninkrijk

(Danish): Kongerige

(Norwegian): Kongeriket

(Swedish): Konungariket

(Icelandic): Konungsríkið

so, ... Realm, Reich, Rijk, Rige, Riket, Ríkið, ... it is pretty clear! As well in the Kingdom of Sweden (i.e., Konungariket Sverige) the word Realm shows up twice (as Riket, and then Rige).

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 02:42, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Are you asserting that the Third Reich was a kingdom? As in all your examples? Folks at 137 (talk) 07:59, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Are you asserting that the Commonwealth and Protectorate (1649-1660) was a monarchy? ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 14:35, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives!, that list looks more impressive than it is: the first four would be rendered as "empire" in English, as you well know, the rest as "kingdoms". And the morpheme -dom in kingdom is certainly not related or translatable in any way as "realm". It's an old abstract noun formation, the equivalent of German -tum, not of German -reich. As for the usage within the context of Germany, the official name of the German state 1918-1945 (apart from the addition of "Gross-") had been inherited from its direct (imperial) predecessor, the "Deutsches Reich" or "German Empire" (1871-1918). So if you want to be pedantic about it to the degree of doing away with the English term "Reich" (which is as clear as one can be, restricted to the Nazi Third Reich, and thereby even less ambiguous (!) than the German usage), then translate it correctly into "Empire" or "Imperial", and not to "realm". It's the German Empire we're talking about, not the German Realm! Trigaranus (talk) 11:48, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Hello Trigaranus.

The German word Reich translates as the English word Realm. A Lord's Realm translates ... Lord(s)realm ... Herr(s)reich ... Herrreich. Now this is imcomplete, however. The suffix -reich (-realm), -tum (-dom), -schaft (-ship) must be chosen between to get the "right-fit" when it comes to its Rank (i.e., its Feudal Rank). Since a Herr (Lord) is near the bottom of the "Feudal-Pyramid" he gets "the shaft!" (a joke eh), and gets the -schaft (-ship) suffix. In other words a Herrschaft (Lordship) is run by a Herr (Lord). So a Lord's Realm is known as a Lordship in English and a Herrschaft in German.

All four of the countries below were Realms (i.e., Reich(s)). But what kind of Realms are they? They are Emperor's Realms (i.e., an Empire).

Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation (888-1806)

Kaisertum Österreich (1804-1867)

Kaiserliche und Konigliche Österreich-Ungarn (1867-1918)

Deutsches Kaiserreich (1871-1918)

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsches_Kaiserreich

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 14:30, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

As has been noted above, while "Reich" does translate as "Realm," it is familiar enough to English speakers that the original German should be retained. I agree with Folks at 137 that "commissionerate" is clumsy and obtuse. It's not included in any dictionary I have (for ease of verification, Dictionary.com has no results for the word, neither does Merriam-Webster). Parsecboy (talk) 13:48, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Kommissariat in English is commissariat - the OED particularly notes this translation as correct for the German and Russian term used in this context. The OED does not list "commissionerate", and I strongly suspect its usage is limited to the Indian topic.

As for translating Reich: without context this would be translated to kingdom or realm, but when the Reich in question is this particular Reich, then the English term is Reich: Shirer's seminal work is not titled "The Rise and Fall of the Third Kingdom" or "The Rise and Fall of the Third Realm" - he chose the word that he knew his readers understand. Good translation is context-dependent and cannot be achieved by simple word-by-word lookup.

For the compound term, I have normally seen it in English language works in its fully untranslated form Reichskommissariat, just as Reichsgau, Gleichschaltung, Wehrmacht and Obergruppenführer are the usual terms used untranslated as loanwords in English-language publications in this particular historical context.

If no agreement can be found, proceed with whatever form of the term is used predominantly in the listed English-language sources for the article. Knepflerle (talk) 15:22, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Consensus on translation...?

Before it all gets out of hand: Would it be a compromise we'd all be happy with if we went and translated it Reichs Commissariat (of) Ukraine? Yea or nay? Trigaranus (talk) 21:30, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

That should be Reich not Reichs. The 's' (Fugen-s ) is added in German when two words are joined together to form a single word. It should not be added in English, even with foreign/loan words. --Boson (talk) 21:51, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Maybe you all should take a look at Reichskommissariat. If you are going to change something here you will have to change also the other articles.

And secondly we should use terms used in scholar works. I just checked Wendy Lower's book "Nazi Empire-building and the Holocaust in Ukraine" from 2005 and she writes "The Reich Commissariat Ukraine" as well as "Reich Commissariat Norway" etc. Närking (talk) 22:01, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I also checked Karel C. Berkhoff's "Harvest of Despair" from 2004 and he writes "Reichskommissariat Ukraine". Martin Dean writes the same in his "Collaboration in the Holocaust" from 2000. And I suggest we also keep it that way. Närking (talk) 22:20, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Richard J Evans in "The Third Reich at War" (p.188),refers to "Reich Commissariat of the Ukraine". I think the choice is to stick with the German usage or to find English terms (native & borrowed, including Reich) that best reflect the original nature and intent. For me, "colony" reflects the exploitative and repressive nature of Nazi occupation, but I know that the word may not be a good cultural fit (at least it's easy to understand). To be honest, I'm unsure that an English translation in the infobox is much help, when the nature of the administration could be correctly explained in the text. Folks at 137 (talk) 22:46, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

It seems clear that English sources either use the term untranslated or "Reich Commissariat Ukraine" / "Reich Commissariat of the Ukraine". Frankly, I don't see much added value in such a translation and would prefer the untranslated term. If we must have a translation, "Reich Commissariat Ukraine" seems the best sourced and most concise term. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 00:51, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, you know fellers, the only reason why I suggested anything like this is because virtually anything is better than "Realm's Commissionerate". I seriously doubt a translation is necessary, given that the term already is in common usage in the UK/US in its German form. I am more than happy with leaving it untranslated (it's not that the German term is a book of seven seals for an English speaker). Trigaranus (talk) 04:34, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

A Reichskommissar is a Realm's Commissar (i.e., a Realm's Commissioner). A Governorate is run by a Governor ... so, a Realm's Commissionerate (i.e., a Reichskommissariat) would be run by a Realm's Commissioner.

Additionally, a Reichsstatthalter is a Realm's Steadholder. A Stead-holder ...Place-holder ... Lieu-tenant. The term Imperial would be incorrect, as that is Kaiserliche.

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 05:19, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Why not "realm"?! Please, read the above contributions. At least two editors have given good reasons why not and none have supported it. "Realm", in English, implies monarchy of some sort and "reich" moved beyond that as soon as the word was applied, by Germans, to non-monarchical states, if not before. It has connotations that are not appropriate to this context and therefore, here, "realm" is a miss-translation. And probably unnecessary. Folks at 137 (talk) 08:10, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Hello Folks at 137.

Realm (i.e., Reich) does not have to be a Monarchy. In the same vein-of-thought, Free State, and Commonwealth do not have to be a Republic. ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 11:31, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Reichskommissariat Ukraine to Reichs Commissariat of Ukraine?

Since the original Name of the Administrative District was the Reichskommissariat Ukraine how about the Reichs Commissariat of Ukraine? At least that preserves the word order of the German-to-English translation in question (e.g., the word order, Königreich England to Kingdom of England). ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 02:11, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I would say: leave the article name untranslated. Translate it in parentheses and as a redirect. And please Reich, not Reichs. See Reich Chancellery etc. --Boson (talk) 06:29, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Hello Boson.

That is Realm's Chancellery ... the 's in English has a common purpose with the Fugen-s (i.e., Fugenlaut http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugenlaut ) in German. ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 11:36, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

The Fugen-s can be translated in one of two ways - as 's (with the apostrophe) or by deletion, which leaves the two nouns in apposition with the first specifying the meaning of the second. In the few instances where this term is ever translated, the latter is the common method employed. Obvious parallels are seen in native English phrases such as town hall and county council.

Leaving the s dangling and untranslated leaves the phrase unhappily in limbo between languages. Knepflerle (talk) 12:18, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. For a reader to get to this article probably implies a more than casual or serendipitous interest, therefore a willingness to use the German term. This whole group of articles, however, needs attention to its interlinking, presentation and referencing. Folks at 137 (talk) 08:16, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, leave the article untranslated. Redirects for Reich Commissariat Ukraine would be good idea though. And the same goes for Reichskommissariat Norwegen, Reichskommissariat Niederlande etc. Närking (talk) 08:21, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Now done. Knepflerle (talk) 12:09, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Since other editors are already "correcting things" in the Reichskommissariat articles ... why not enter the English word ... of ... to complete the job?

Reichs Commissariat of the Netherlands

Reichs Commissariat of Norway

Reichs Commissariat of Eastland

Reichs Commissariat of Ukraine

Reichs Commissariat of the Caucasus

Reichs Commissariat of Moscow

This preserves the common word order in the German-to-English translation. ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 11:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

May the don remain in comfortable repose in his armchair - I have made those redirects for you. Knepflerle (talk) 12:09, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Hello Knepflerle.

Thank you very much for kindly explaining the "ins-and-outs" of German- to-English translation ... I appreciate the kindness very much indeed. I own a copy of

Das Grosse Flaggenbuch, Ottfried Neubecker, (1992, Faksimile)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Das+Grosse+Flaggenbuch%2C+Ottfried+Neubecker&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Ottfried Neubecker was a was interesting man, and could he ever explain complicated Flags. I am also studying the Proto-Indo-European language, in particular the Germanic Language branch, (i.e., English, Dutch, German, Danish, Norwegian, Swedish, Icelandic, etc.). If I could ask you one further opinion on translations ...

If

Königreich England translates to Kingdom of England

Then

Reichskommissariat Ukraine translates to Reich Commissariat of Ukraine

why would the English word of not be inserted here?

Take care, and best wishes ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 20:32, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I added the English word of to the English Name ... to see what the response would be.

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 12:15, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

If we are going to add prepositions etc., I think it would be normal to use "for" when talking about the administration of a dependent territory. Also, since we are not talking only about Ukraine proper, and especially not the modern sovereign state, "the Ukraine" would probably be more appropriate historically. So that would make it "Reich Commissariat for the Ukraine". This is also what I found most frequently when I searched for the exact terms on Google books (seaching for the four alternatives: with of/for with/without the. --Boson (talk) 14:10, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Hello Boson.

Since we are talking about a translation from the German language to the English language the translation in the end should look a little bit English. The English language uses the word of (and not the word for) in terms like Colony of, Province of, Protectorate of, in the adminstration of Dependent Territories, so the logical choice here would be Reich Commissariat of ... wouldn't you say eh? ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 18:36, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Most hits in Google Books and among my own books are Reich Commissariat Ukraine without any prepositions. The same goes for Reich Commissariat Ostland etc. Närking (talk) 14:34, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, sorry, I should have made it clear that I was only looking at versions with a preposition. I would prefer no preposition (and the full English translation should occur only twice: following the German, once in the first line and once in the infobox). Redirects to the German name should probably be provided for the versions with and without of and for and with and without 'the'. When this has been sorted out, the text probably needs revising overall to avoid words like "Reichscommissar". --Boson (talk) 14:58, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Hello everyone here.

I can live with the English Name of Reich Commissariat Ukraine. What I am asking is the following...

If

Königreich England translates to Kingdom of England

Then

Reichskommissariat Ukraine translates to Reich Commissariat of Ukraine

why would the English word of not be inserted here?

In other words what is wrong with

Reich Commissariat of the Netherlands

Reich Commissariat of Norway

Reich Commissariat of Ostland

Reich Commissariat of Ukraine

Reich Commissariat of the Caucasus

Reich Commissariat of Moscow

well ... what?

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 17:46, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Protektorat Böhmen und Mähren translates to Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia

Since Protektorat Böhmen und Mähren translates to Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia ... then Reichskommissariat Ukraine translates to Reich Commissariat of Ukraine. (Relates issues Großdeutsches Reich, Deutsches Reich, and Deutsches Kaiserreich).

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 00:59, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

You keep basing your line of argument on other examples on Wikipedia. Whilst not invalid, the argument is not decisive as translation is not a science and there are frequent exceptions. Even Wikipedia has not fully agreed all translation conventions. If you want to pursue this, may I suggest you find authoritative sources to back your case rather than seeking to wear us all down by attrition! :) --Bermicourt (talk) 14:52, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Hello Bermicourt.

What I am asking is the following...

If

Königreich England translates to Kingdom of England

Then

Reichskommissariat Ukraine translates to Reich Commissariat of Ukraine

why would the English word of not be inserted here?

Would you care to express an opinion on this?

Additional Note:

The Wikipedia article on German East Africa has the following text,

Schutzgebiet Deutsch-Ostafrika

Protectorate of German East Africa

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 02:09, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

If I may, I will respond to your earlier reply here.

This case is not quite that simple, though reasonable people may take different positions.

Firstly, on the question of principle that you raise Since we are talking about a translation from the German language to the English language the translation in the end should look a little bit English..

Indeed, but when translating culturally bound terms, it is usual for the "translation" to be precisely that: only a bit like English. So we use a calque or "through translation", translating literally word for word. This stresses that we are talking about a foreign and/or historical concept and is particularly appropriate when added as an explanation of the original foreign term.

Secondly, on the question of Reichskommissariat . . . in particular:

This was primarily a designation of an administrative unit, or "civil sevice department", and the word is used in this way in the official German designations

• Reichskommissariat für die Behandlung feindlichen Vermögens‎
• Reichskommissariat für die Festigung deutschen Volkstums
• Reichskommissariat für Aufbauarbeiten
• Reichskommissariat für die Überwachung der öffentlichen Ordnung
• Reichskommissariat für die besetzten rheinischen Gebiete
• Reichkommissariat für die besetzten niederländischen Gebiete
• Reichkommissariat für die besetzten norwegischen Gebiete
• Reichkommissariat für die Ukraine.

When the area of authority is in fact a territory, the meaning of "administrative unit" is blurred and may, by extension, come to refer to the territory itself, but this is still different from the use of "protectorate".

--Boson (talk) 13:11, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Hello Boson.

Thank you for your kind reply, I appreciate it alot. You have put alot of work into it, and it shows.

With regards to the addition of the English word of into the term Reich Commissariat Ukraine ... if you want delete it.

I am studying the Proto-Indo-European Language and its descendents (i.e., Us!). I'll tell you this ... the Germanic language branch (i.e., English, Dutch, German, Danish, Norwegian, Swedish, Faroese, Icelandic, etc.) ... has definite patterns and,

Königreich England to Königreich für England

Schutzgebiet Deustch-Ostafrika to Schutzgebeit für Deutsch-Ostafrika

just is not apart of this pattern (i.e., a Reichskommissariat is an Administrative Unit ... not a collection-of-clerks in an Office).

Take care and best wishes ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 13:45, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

the first 3 sources do not mention Reichskommissariat Ukraine

do any of the others? specifically the word Ukrainse is not found in any of the sources. I suggest we clarify, source, or rename. Darkstar1st (talk) 16:04, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Dubious quote from a dubious source

"We are a master race, which must remember that the lowliest German worker is racially and biologically a thousand times more valuable than the population here." attributed to Erich Koch. Not even the German article attributes such a source to him. So unless you can find what he said in German, please take that canard out of the article. --196.215.157.155 (talk) 17:59, 4 February 2015 (UTC)