Talk:Redones

Riedones

Hi @Alcaios:,

Since 1968 and the discovery of the first epigraphy mentionning this people, we know that they writted their own name Riedones and most publications since use this graphy with a "i". See for instance Rouanet-Lisenfelt et alii, 1980, La civilisation des Riedones, Pape, 1995, La Bretagne romaine or Berretrot, 2004, Riedones (the first two explicitely saying Riedones should be used, see the notes in the articles in French).

The old graphy Redones without the "i" is still used quite often but I think that Wikipedia should use the "right" form. What do you think?

Cheers, VIGNERON * ^discut. 18:39, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi VIGNERON, in fact I originally intended to move the article to Rēdones (with the accent) based on etymology and attested forms, but Riedones is a good compromise. I've reverted the move. Alcaios (talk) 19:00, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

@Alcaios: thanks, that's good! Cheers, VIGNERON * ^discut. 19:11, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

@VIGNERON: – sorry, I forgot that we had this discussion. After doing some deeper research, the original form is rendered Rēdones, which became Riedones after diphtongaison. Linguist Pierre-Yves Lambert indeed writes: "La découverte de la forme Riedones, sur une inscription de Rennes, a semblé livrer "la vraie forme" de ce nom de peuple, et plusieurs historiens ont abandonné l'usage de Redones pour Riedones ... En fait, il ne parait pas nécessaire de renoncer a la forme traditionnelle Redones, que supposait avoir un -ē- (de *reid- "aller en char"); mais l'évolution ē > ie est tout à fait isolée, et l'on hésite à la prendre en compte (plus tard, c'est le e bref accentue qui devient -ie- en français ancien)." Furthermore, the -ie- diphthong is absent from the name of their chief town, Redonas > Rennes. Alcaios (talk) 14:49, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@Alcaios: no problem. Yes, Lambert "prefers" the "traditional" form, I disagree with this choice which is a minority opinion, almost all specialists of this civilisation use the form Riedones (which is the only known written form from that time). I don't think it's really a linguist/historian opposition, it's more a gallic/gallo-roman opposition (the gallic word is just a reconsituted hypothesis). Anyway, both forms are correct, I just still think - like the specialists (Rouanet-Lisenfelt and Pape, to cite only the two more important) - that Riedones is "more" correct. Plus, it is the more common nowadays. Cheers, VIGNERON * ^discut. 15:45, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@VIGNERON: – I have added Rouanet-Lisenfelt and Pape to the article. Alcaios (talk) 16:18, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@VIGNERON: and @Alcaios:, maybe I should have waited with the move until you had some consensus here. It can be moved back should there be a majority or a consensus for "Riedones".--Berig (talk) 16:24, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I apologized since I had forgotten about this discussion – I have given the arguments in favour of Redones (perhaps Rēdones) here and in the article. Alcaios (talk) 16:39, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@VIGNERON: and @Alcaios: Which form is the most common in English-language literature?--Berig (talk) 16:53, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@Berig: to be fair, both forms are correct and "Redones" is still very common and probably most common. See the Google Ngram for instance. I would prefer "Riedones" but I won't fight for it. Cheers, VIGNERON * ^discut. 17:29, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@VIGNERON:, Thanks! Judging by the Google Ngram, you kindly provided "Redones" should be the form that most English-speakers expect to find on English Wikipedia. Note that Riedones can also be found just as quickly through a redirect and is listed in bold in the beginning of the lede.--Berig (talk) 17:47, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@VIGNERON:, @Berig:: I've just moved Riedones alongside Redones in the article. It now reads: The Redones or Riedones (Gaulish: Rēdones; also Rhedones)... Regards, Alcaios (talk) 17:54, 16 January 2021 (UTC)