Talk:Raymond FitzGerald

1911 text is outdated!

Please note that the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition could not take advantage of the four volumes of Orpen which constituted the first serious in-depth historic analysis of the Norman invasion into Ireland. (A lot of research has been published since then too but nothing compares in its overall significance to this milestone by Goddard Orpen.) This means that the text taken from the Britannica is seriously outdated. I've just updated the discussion about his death. The original text assumed him to have died c. 1182 even if we know that he was still alive in 1185. The rest should be checked as well against current literature or preferably written from scratch. Raymond le Gros deserves a better article! --AFBorchert (talk) 23:13, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I have updated some of this but I have tons more that I can put in when I get a chance later, I have only touched on Roche's entries on Le Gros, and want to cover other sources such as nicholas Furlong, TW Moody and others.--Jaquesdemolay92 (talk) 09:38, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Le Gros?

This isn't a French epithet, it's an Anglo-Norman epithet. A literal translation would be "big", but compare to "der große" in German, or to usage of words for "big" as epithets in many other languages, such as "magnus" in Latin, "μέγας" in Greek, "stórr" in Old Norse, or "great" in English. It seems likely this epithet was not intended to be insulting, although Geraldus Cambrensis possibly alludes to a double meaning when he discusses Raymond's figure: "quanquam carnosa superfluitate ventre turgescens". 14.2.175.53 (talk) 00:38, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

A note on Raymond's epithet would be a good addition to the article. The thing is that we can't do it without a reliable secondary source that covers his epithet.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 01:40, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Longevity

How's it known that "He was certainly alive when John of England came to Ireland in 1185."?

Looking at The Annals of Ulster p. 200, Mac Carthaigh's Book p.70, The Annals of Boyle p.292 and The Annals of Loch Cé p.164-165, it can be supposed that some time between 1181 and 1183, someone variously named as "Remmon", "Remunn" and "Remund" was killed at Lismore, alongside Miles de Cogan, the sons of Robert FitzStephen and some other knights, as they rode for Waterford, but were intercepted by MacTire, king of Uí Mac Caille.

In The Annals of Clonmacnoise (a C17th English translation of a lost Irish chronicle) p.214, it's specified that this is "Raymond de la Grosse". This could very well be due to an erroneous supposition of the translator, but without evidence for Raymond's life beyond 1183, it may need to be considered. 14.2.175.53 (talk) 00:38, 17 January 2017 (UTC)