Talk:Raven Saunders

Tokyo 2020

Saunders is noted as the first athlete to perform a political gesture on the podium against IOC Rule 50.[1] Adding it here as it got international attention, but I am not sure it's sufficiently notable. The gesture is less obvious compared to taking of a knee or a raised fist. Solipsism 101 (talk) 18:43, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

@Solipsism 101 I think it's generally notable. I've seen coverage from most major media outlets including the NYT, WaPo, and The Guardian. Philipnelson99 (talk) 19:17, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Reportedly,the gesture netted 1.8 billion social media impressions as well. 2605:A601:AF91:4800:28A0:8334:823D:1E38 (talk) 06:20, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Pronouns?

watching the 2024 US trials, I noticed the commentators working hard to use they/them pronouns when referring to Raven. A google search for [“raven saunders” pronouns] returns a preview of this wiki article that includes a sentence about Raven’s pronouns being they/them, but I don’t see that in the current article, which uses she/her throughout. I’m not seeing anything on the talk page either, but I’m using mobile (which I’m not used to), so maybe I’m missing something? Seems like the pronouns here need an update. Matthall.research (talk) 01:57, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I just think we need to write in English. Using "they" to a singular person in at minimum absurd. 85.139.180.16 (talk) 10:53, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

You’re welcome to think that, but MOS:GIDINFO endorses the entirely reasonable viewpoint that individuals who choose to use them/their as pronouns should be referred to as such. I’m sure there is some robust and not at all extremely tiresome debate still being pushed by those who disagree with this, but the reality of things is that sorry, this ship sailed some time ago. Mike (talk) 12:13, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

As Mike said above, MOS:GIDINFO very clearly says that singular they/them pronouns are acceptable, and I don't think we should attempt to revert that on the article, as some people are doing. Raven Sauders uses they/them: [2], [3]. win8x (talking | spying) 12:48, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Let me ask a question, as English is not my native language but I learned it at school and am willing to learn more. Now when I read, "They were the silver medalist", it appears to me as a plural and I wonder, who they were – Raven Saunders and somebody else? Reading on, I realize that this is a different they, not the usual plural pronoun. But then, shouldn't the verb be in the singular, "They was the silver medalist"? I admit that this sounds strange at first, but it does refer to one person only (one medalist, to be precise), so why should it be the plural "were"? I didn't find an answer on MOS:GIDINFO either, so I'd be grateful for an explanation (or a change).—Jochen64 (talk) 00:08, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The pronouns SHOULD be singular - "she." But, when women try to think their men, they like to think they are multi-sex. Plural sex. But, she is not. She is a she. 76.10.227.201 (talk) 00:48, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

You failed to answer the question. Editthefrog (talk) 04:12, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Please don't try to educate others on English grammar when you don't know the proper form of their/there/they're to use. 136.27.135.3 (talk) 17:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

User:Jochen64: So, as a native English speaker I'd say that "They were the silver medallist" is in the singular because it's medallist, not medallist_s_. It's been a perfectly acceptable and normal thing in English for a very long time to refer to someone whose gender you are uncertain of as "they", for instance if you've not met them and they have a name with doesn't strongly imply gender - for instance Cameron, Blake, Leslie/Lesley, or indeed Speaker of the House of Commons Lindsay Hoyle. It's far ruder to refer to someone by the incorrect gendered pronoun than it is to refer to them as "they" -- women with more gender-neutral names get particularly irked at people assuming they're "he". "Hi, I'm here to see Lindsay Hoyle - do you know if they're in?", for instance. You might them find that the person you're talking to who knows Lindsay is in fact a man will say something like "Yes, I'll just see if _he's_ in his office" to give you a hint for future reference. :)

"They" is basically dual-purpose - both third person plural _and_ third person singular for cases where gender is unclear. The gender-neutral singular for things other than humans is "it", of course, but unlike (say) German where "child" is neuter and it's common to refer to children as "es" if their gender is unknown or you're writing an official document referring to children in general, humans are never never ever "it" in English because it's considered *extremely* rude and dehumanising to refer to a human that way.

So someone who expresses the wish to use they/their as their personal pronouns is doing nothing that's even slightly grammatically unusual. They're just asking people to use a mechanism that's been in common use in the English language for ages because - for instance - they don't want to be immediately defined by their biological sex when interacting with other humans. Mike (talk) 12:22, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

It is similar to how both singular and plural 'you' use the same verb forms. The form of the pronoun being used must be inferred from context. It is common for people to subconsciously structure their sentences in ways that help make it clear. I'm going to guess somewhere around B2 comprehension that picking up on this is typically automatic, but I'm a native speaker and not really sure. 185.87.117.63 (talk) 16:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not a native English speaker, but thankfully you really get used to it. MOS:GIDINFO just stipulates that using they/them in an article is acceptable on Wikipedia. As Mike said, look at the noun. Is it plural? You can also infer from the context (Sauders participates in shot put, not a team sport), and if you know the subject uses they/them, it will also make it easier.

Why does English use "were" instead of "was"? I honestly don't know. But it is gramatically correct to use "were". Maybe the folks at Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language would know more.

Side note about Wikipedia (or any other online place): If someone doesn't have pronouns declared in their preferences, you should probably refer to contributors as they/them. This is quite common to see, and from seeing it a lot, it will become normal to you. win8x (talking | spying) 22:24, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Jochen64: Singular "they" is just like singular "you". Both were originally used only for plural, and now both are used for singular and plural. The grammar follows the plural convention in both cases. For example, you wouldn't say "You is an Olympic athlete" even if you're just talking to one person. You would say "You are an Olympic athlete" and "They are an Olympic athlete" for either singular or plural. For more information see singular they. Nosferattus (talk) 16:25, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your helpful answers. I have in fact been aware of the gender-neutral use of they/them/their. What I need to get into my brains is that it is correct to say "they are" or "they have" while still referring to one person. It boggles my mind as the grammatical forms don't seem to match. But I'll get along; there have been so many changes in living languages since I started to learn one. Thanks again! —Jochen64 (talk) 02:40, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Extreme POV sounds like a puff piece

This article needs some deep editing to remove POV and be encyclopedic in nature. Mercster (talk) 08:27, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

@Mercster: can you please specify any examples and what in particular has led you to this assessment? Abcmaxx (talk) 10:33, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I added an NPOV tag to the article for you by the way. Abcmaxx (talk) 10:37, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I just read through the article and it strikes me as being extremely factual. It's referenced, it doesn't speculate, there's no original research. Even claims like "highly successful" are backed with detail justifying them (winning an NCAA title certainly counts as being highly successful in a discipline). Unless @Mercster can point to any genuine instances of puffery or "extreme POV" rather than a factual biographical account I don't think that NPOV tag should stand. Mike (talk) 12:33, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Definitely needs some work to clarify. F.e. according to the article, she is openly lesbian, which only works when she is (and identifies as) a woman. Yet the article uses they/them without clarifying what she identifies as. DasallmächtigeJ (talk) 18:15, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Their instagram, as well as several reputable sources explicitly state that they use they/them pronouns, so the article follows that practice per MOS:GENDERID. And "lesbian", the term, is not exclusively used for women who use she/her pronouns, as the usage note at Wiktionary's entry for "lesbian" and its citations page show. AG202 (talk) 22:09, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The common understanding (also referred in the Wiktionary is “ A gay woman, one who is mostly or exclusively sexually or romantically attracted to other women.” I understand that Wikipedia has the sad tendency to treat all things woke as a fact, but not every aspect of woke gender ideology makes sense just because some obscure activist wrote an article in one of their outlets about it. Which granted is not the task of this talk page to solve. DasallmächtigeJ (talk) 07:29, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh. Never mind. :-/ AG202 (talk) 16:42, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

The only line that could be considered POV is "They have also worked as an advocate for racial justice[clarification needed] and mental health."

The claim appears to be true and is therefore no different to any other person's advocacies. Editthefrog (talk) 04:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I removed that sentence from the lead as it is not a central aspect of their notability. It is still discussed in the "Personal life" section where it is appropriate. Hopefully, that resolves the NPOV issue. Nosferattus (talk) 15:53, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Sex?

Which sex does this human being belong to? It's confusing with the pronouns being used in the article. Dysp (talk) 14:00, 15 August 2024 (UTC)