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Talk:Ratcliffe Manor

Latest comment: 7 months ago by Grungaloo in topic GA Review
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Fort Stoakes

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Latest comment: 7 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I have been told by one of the former residents of Ratcliffe Manor that Fort Stoakes is located on private property. If one attempts to drive down Ratcliffe Manor Drive to Fort Stoakes, there are numerous street signs that say "Private Property". I could not find any newspaper article or book that confirmed this. TwoScars (talk) 17:20, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

GA Review

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Latest comment: 7 months ago30 comments2 people in discussion
Passed. grungaloo (talk) 19:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Ratcliffe Manor/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: TwoScars (talk · contribs)

Reviewer: Grungaloo (talk · contribs) 21:01, 23 March 2024 (UTC)Reply


Good Article review progress box
Criteria: 1a. prose ( ) 1b. MoS ( ) 2a. ref layout ( ) 2b. cites WP:RS ( ) 2c. no WP:OR ( ) 2d. no WP:CV ( )
3a. broadness ( ) 3b. focus ( ) 4. neutral ( ) 5. stable ( ) 6a. free or tagged images ( ) 6b. pics relevant ( )
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked   are unassessed
  • Based on the sources, "Construction started/completed" dates are only estimates so this should be reflected in the infobox.
  • Some WP:REPEATCITE going on. Not required for GA but can be cleaned up.
    • Not sure what you mean. I just ran the reFill program, and it did not have any corrections. TwoScars (talk) 18:47, 24 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    • If you mean that it would be better to move the papers cited (such as "The Colonial History of Wye Plantation...." to the References section using Cite Journal, and then having the citation refer to the exact page—I can do that, although it will take some time. TwoScars (talk) 19:14, 24 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • The "Beginning" section, I'd mention that it's unknown when exactly he started and finished construction, because as it reads now it sounds like it's missing information, although it appears this info just doesn't exist.
    • Modified sentence to now say: "Although the exact construction start and finish dates are not available, Hollyday appears to have occupied Ratcliffe Manor by 1762 based on a letter written to his brother." TwoScars (talk) 18:55, 24 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • At the time of its construction, Ratcliffe Manor was part of Talbot County in the Province of Maryland - This is a repetition of the first sentence of the section, I'd recommend dropping one.
    • Actually, it is not. At the time of construction, the state of Maryland did not exist. The English colony named Province of Maryland existed instead. Changed second second sentence to "At the time of the manor's construction, Talbot County was part of the English Province of Maryland, and the United States and state of Maryland did not yet exist. TwoScars (talk) 19:04, 24 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • The Hollyday farm of the 1760s was described as "another of the great bayside plantations" - This should be "has been described as", otherwise it sounds like this quote is coming from a contemporary source.
  • Grain was a more important crop than tobacco. - This sounds odd on its own. Was it more important at Ratcliffe manor specifically, or more generally around the country? I'd try tying it into another sentence for better flow.
    • When someone thinks of a southern plantation prior to the American Civil War, they think of tobacco plantations. I changed/added: "Tobacco was the main cash crop on Maryland's Eastern Shore during the 17th and early 18th centuries.[11] Histories of colonial plantations in southern regions such as Virginia tend to focus on tobacco production.[12] However, grain was a more important crop at Ratcliffe Manor than tobacco." TwoScars (talk) 20:00, 24 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • 315 bu (950 mm) of wheat, 185 barrels of corn, and 55 bu (170 mm) of oats - I wouldn't use the short measurement names here. It reads as 950 millimeters of wheat. I would convert it to cubic meters if anything.
    • I used the Wikipedia default conversion in all cases, so I had no choice. The Wiki-code for the 315 bushels is {{convert|315|bu}} TwoScars (talk) 20:00, 24 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    • Changed, based on U.S. Grain Council conversion for wheat (did not show oats), to: On average, the farm produced 3,700 pounds (1,700 kg) of tobacco, 315 bushels (8.6 metric tons) of wheat, 185 barrels of corn, and 55 bushels (1.5 metric tons) of oats. TwoScars (talk) 20:00, 24 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • The Maryland Historical Trust has a 103-page file on Ratcliffe Manor. - Is this a necessary detail? I think it should be dropped, and the rest of the paragraph can refer to the Maryland Historical Trust itself rather than the "file".
  • A 20th century source mentions that the façade of the water approach to the house is nearly identical to the land approach facade - Does this mean the facade that faces the water/the facade that faces the road? Could be written more plainly, or add a note explaining them since you use the same terms later.
    • Changed to "Another source mentions that the side of the house that faces the water is nearly identical to the land approach side, which gives the house two façades." TwoScars (talk) 20:33, 24 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • The two–and–a–half-story home was made from Flemish bond red brick, and is the highlight of a plantation that at one time consisted of over 1,000 acres (400 ha). - This should come before the details of the portico and roof.

History

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  • At the time of the land grants in colonial Maryland, an English manor was defined as "a piece of landed property with tenants over whom the landlord exercised rights of jurisdiction in a private court". - Not fully supported by the source, it doesn't verify that colonial Maryland used this definition. Ref 24 seems to corroborate this, so you could use that cite here as well.
  • The manor typically had a manor house, and now the term "manor" is also defined as "a residence" - The second clause is confusing, I'm not sure what purpose it serves so I'd consider dropping it.
    • I can drop it if you prefer. For now, I added "Ratcliffe Manor in 1660 refers to a plot of land that became a plantation, while today it refers to a house on a large lot." TwoScars (talk) 21:44, 24 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • History section - I think there's some bigger issues here with too much detail (GACR 3b). There's a lot of information about who lived here and their personal histories, but since this is an article about the manor I would argue that this is not the place for those histories.
    • I believe that the value and interest in a home is increased by having famous residents. However, I will work to cut out some of the detail. The important points are that: 1) the builder of Ratcliffe Manor spent some of his childhood at one of Maryland's most famous plantations (Wye); 2) the builder of Ratcliffe Manor's mother supervised the construction of a different plantation house that is now in the National Register of Historic Places (Readbourne)—which implies that her experience could have had an influence on the Ratcliffe Manor house construction; 3) the builder of Ratcliffe Manor was related to one of Maryland's Eastern Shore most prominent political families that included a former colonial governor of Maryland, a delegate to the Continental Congress, and a future governor of the state of Maryland. Also, there are a reasons why the builder's two oldest sons did not inherit Ratcliffe Manor. TwoScars (talk) 17:17, 27 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    • Shortened Last Hollyday section, and will work on eliminating portions of the Henry and Henry II sections on Thursday. The Earlier Hollyday homes section will be eliminated, with small portions moving to a Henry section. TwoScars (talk) 20:56, 27 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    • Shortened more sections about the Hollyday family, and renamed them. Plan to look for a citation for Fort Stokes being on private property tomorrow. TwoScars (talk) 20:17, 28 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • He is apparently not related to Robert Morris of Liverpool, who lived in Oxford, Maryland... - This seems like a lot of space dedicated to saying that someone is not tangentially related to someone famous. I would drop this, especially since the article is about the manor and not about Morris himself. Maybe just a footnote even that he's not the founding father Morris.
    • Moved the Robert Morris-not-related info to a footnote. This is important to locals because the other Robert Morris lived in Oxford, Maryland—which is in the same county as Ratcliffe Manor. The Oxford Museum has an exhibition on Oxford's Robert Morris, and the town of Oxford has a Robert Morris Inn that is named after Oxford's Robert Morris. By automobile, Oxford is 10 miles (16 km) away from Ratcliffe Manor. TwoScars (talk) 16:47, 27 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Earlier Hollyday homes section - This entire section doesn't mention Ratcliffe manor at all. It's well written, but I don't think this is relevant to this article and I would drop it.
  • Upon his death, eldest son James III officially inherited most of the Readbourne property, including the manor house. - What's the Readbourne property? This is the first mention of it, wouldn't he have inherited Ratcliffe Manor? Did the name change, if so that should be mentioned?
    • Actually, it is mentioned in the Earlier Hollyday homes. However, I plan to eliminate much of that section, and shorten (and rename) the Henry and Henry II sections. Work will begin on that on Thursday. TwoScars (talk) 21:11, 27 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Henry's will originally left the Ratcliffe plantation to his wife (Anna Maria Robins Hollyday) - Since she's already been named I don't think we need his wife's full name, just her first name if anything.
  • Fort Stoakes - I would reorder this section somewhat. Start with the fact that a fort was built on the manor (that's why people are reading the article after all), and then cover the why.
    • Redid the section. Begins with "Ratcliffe Manor was the site of a fortress built during the War of 1812. Fort Stoakes was located on Ratcliffe Manor property on the Tred Avon River and housed a six-gun (a.k.a. cannons or artillery pieces) battery." Then the reason is discussed. TwoScars (talk) 20:25, 27 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Today (2023), the site of the fort is located on private property. - There's a CN tag here that needs to be addressed
    • All I have on that so far is a sign that says "Private Property" and talking to one of the former residents. I will try to check with the local historical society mid-week. TwoScars (talk) 20:38, 24 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    • Dropped that sentence and replaced it with a sentence that describes the remains of the fort. This is cited by a newspaper article. Also put a comment in the talk section that discusses this issue. We don't want to be the cause of people wandering on private property for the remains of a fort that are pretty much gone. TwoScars (talk) 17:30, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Hathaway became involved with the Chesapeake Bay Yacht Club. - Not sure the relevance here, I'd drop it
  • mith served in the administrations of four U.S. presidents, and he was an expert in arms control. He was involved with the establishment of the Moscow–Washington hotline during the Kennedy Administration. - Not relevant to the manor, I think it's enough that it's mentioned he's a diplomat and wikilinked.
  • Development section - this should be part of the History section since it really covers the history from 1990 to present.

No other issues beyond those mentioned. Ref spot check looks good, images are good and appropriately licensed, no copyvio or edit wars. Ping me once you're done or if you have questions. grungaloo (talk) 01:06, 25 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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