Talk:Rasgulla/Archive 2

The Syrupy Sweets in a nutshell. - A fact.

• Khiramohana or, Kheer Mohan is a creamish sweet popular & invented in Odisha since the Jagannath Temple, Puri came into existence. The sweet, offered to the goddess Lakshmi during the Rath Yatra of the temple. Now, the sweet is though made of chhena and cooked in sugar syrup but there is no concrete evidence that chhena, which we know today, existed at the time of the sweet's invention. It is very unlikely of its existence then.

• Pahala Rasgulla, the descendant and an alternative name of Khiramohana , is a yellowish brown, crumbly, syrupy sweet popular & available only in Pahala region of Odisha.

• Rosogolla is a light spongy white ball of chhana stewed in sugar syrup (rasa). The form of Rosogolla that we know today is different from Khiramohana of Odisha in various aspects. Evidenly, Nobin Chandra Das of Kolkata, West Bengal, discovered the sweet. Its alternative names are Rossogolla, Rasagolla & Roshogolla, and its variations are Kamala Bhog, Raj Bhog, Roso Malai etc. The name of the sweet is anglicize to Rasgulla, after many non-Bengali speaking Indians started calling it by this name.

• NB: Kheer in Kheer Mohan, suggests a condensed milk pudding, is not chhena.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 16:47, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Khiramohan - Khira is milk in Odia and it is not a milk pudding. Kheeri is a milk pudding invented in the same temple town of Puri. It is highly recommended for you to study Odia and then comeback and write essays here. Khiramohan is dedicated to the round shape of the Lord. Here Khira also means white. The Khiramohan is white in color unlike the Pahala Rasagulla and Salepur Rasagulla which are creamish in color. The Chappan bhog also uses 2 other chhena sweets in Sakala Dhupa - Chhena Khai and Rasabali which establishes the fact that Chhena is used in other temple offerings. Puri temple cuisine has not been altered since it's inception. I think you should strike down the concrete evidence argument after this. And why there is no concrete evidence of Nobin Chandra Das's invention? Why don't you research on finding a concrete evidence rather than objecting to the fact of Puri Temple tradition. Apply reverse logic and find out how Rasagolla was borrowed from Khiramohan and probably you would get the answer. There is no foreign object(not native to Odisha) is offered to the Lord. This is the proof that Rasagulla or Chenna based sweets were in vogue since centuries in Odisha. For the record Rasamalai is known as rasamalai all around India and "Roso" is just a pronunciation and not the original word. Puri, Bhubaneswar, Gajapati, Sambhala, Kosala where ancient places of culture, food, language, art and traditions are very different from neighboring kingdoms and states. The only glorious period in the history of Bengal was the rule of Shashanka and it was only for 4 decades. Bengal was either rules by Kings of Magadha or Kalinga. Is it your ignorance or your prejudice that is a problem here? I am amazed by your interpretations of odia languages without knowing a bit of Odia.Arjya2002 (talk) 05:03, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Forked content

I have restored the forked article within the talk space of this article per request, at Talk:Rasgulla/forked content. Note that it can be used for reference purposes for discussion and to establish consensus and that is what I'm restoring it for. It is not meant as an endorsement for the content or as a replacement for the existing article, both of which I have no position on, just an uninvolved admin action. —SpacemanSpiff 13:52, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Above information noted.

Thanks Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 14:33, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Balance

As of now the article is heavily biased towards the bengali view which is inappropriate. The original article was balanced. There is no clear documentation available on NC Das invention validity. Whereas there is documentary evidence of Rasagulla in Pahala and Puri. In the last for lines of the Odia claim section we shouldn't put the bengali view. Odia claim should be only Odia and Bengali view should be only bengali. Presently it is a mix up to impress on the Bengali claim. Suggesting a change to the editors --68.119.213.239 (talk) 23:08, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

The section about the Odiya claim is the best place for the arguments against that claim. It provides the readers proper context. The Bengali section also includes the line "according to another theory, he modified the traditional Odisha rasgulla recipe". It also includes a paragraph on the theory that Nobin Chandra Das did not invent the sponge rasgulla recipe. If you have something more to add, feel free to do so with a source. The article looks fairly balanced and neutral to me. utcursch | talk 04:32, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

What is the basis of the claim? The word Rasagola or Rasgulla is called Rosogolla in Bengali. Just like Durga is called Durgo and Ajay is called Ajoy. It is just the pronunciation and usage local to Bengal.

The person argues that KT Achaya and Chitrita Banerjee say milk curlding was a taboo till 19th century. Where is the proof to that? These are mere conjectures. Chitrita Banerjee is a cook book writer and not a historian. She only writes on Bengali cuisine and has little knowledge of food habits from India or elsewere. She only writes Bengali recipes and food habits. Same is KT Achaya. He is not a food historian but a food scientist. A food chemist or a scientist work on food processing and technologies and not cuisine and food habits. Historians don't research on food and it is not a serious line of study. It is a mere hobby.

The only credible research on Rasagulla was done by historian J Padhi and C Mahapatra who read the temple chronicle Madala Panji and have established that there atleast 600 years of history of Rasagulla in Puri. Prof. Utpal RayChaudhuri or Jadavpur University also says that Rasagolla was invented in 13th Century in temple town of Puri. The Khiramohan means White Eyes - dedicated to the eyes of Sri Jagannath which is round in shape. Khiramohan is not creamish in color. It is white like "Khira" which means milk. To understand the usage of words in Odia is difficult. One word can have different meaning. Like mansa which means meat and it also means pulses. The Jagannath Temple chronicles are written in sanskritised Odia and Telegu and here Khira means white in color dedicated to the white round eyes of the Lord.

Milk curdling is an ancient Odia technique. This was developed by the Jainas of Odisha. Odisha was ruled by Jain kings since 2nd Century BC until the Somavamshis came. Being a tropical country milk has very less life and it curdles naturally due to temperature so the Jains started milk curdling by whey. Chenna is in vogue in Odisha since ancient times and atleast few centuries before it went to Bengal. The proof is the presence of two other Chenna based sweet in Chappan Bhog of Puri Temple - Rasabali and Chenna Khai. Chenna is a very colloquial term in Puri itself. Everyone knows the temple cuisine has no outside influence since 9 centuries. Rasagola is offered only during Niladri Bije and it is an annual ritual. But rest all days Rasabali and Chenna Khai is offered. Milk based products are very native to Puri. The Rabari and Kheer are also invented in Puri. The Odias call it Kheeri and the Bengalis call it Payas - does that mean Kheeri and Payas are not same? There has to be some logic behind any argument and our friend has deleted previous content of the "Talk" page which established the fact with accurate evidences. Arjya2002 (talk) 04:24, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Two articles for same the same sweet?

I am confused, and there is a question in my mind about neutrality of the administrator and editors of the article Rasgulla that the article Rosogolla was deleted, (refer Talk:Rosogolla), by the administrator SpacemanSpiff and supported by the administrator editor utcursch | talk of the article Rasgulla on the grounds “two article for the same desert cannot be there in Wikipedia here, However, said deleting administrator intentionally ignored to keep the article Khira Mohana even when the article [[Rusgulla} establishes itself for the same sweet. Is not it a biased act of the persons concerned?

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 14:52, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Pinging involved (Editor did not ping) editors. @SpacemanSpiff and Utcursch:. Regards—☮JAaron95 ^Talk 15:20, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

@User:Jaaron95

I thank your for your above suggestion and it is noted.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 00:40, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

That is probably because Khiramohana is not the same thing as a rasgulla and because the 'origin' theory based on Khiramohana is disputed. --regentspark (comment) 16:21, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

@regentspark

Since you have used the word 'probably' that allows me around 50% chance in my favour. I think my reply to utcursch below along with perusal of stated reason might increase the said percentage above 50% in my favour. Thanks

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 00:40, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

SpacemanSpiff (who deleted your Rosogolla article) probably did not come across Khiramohana article. I removed the image of Rasgulla from that page, arguing that it is not same as the modern rasgulla (the references mentioned in the Rasgulla article say that Khiramohana was a precursor of Rasgulla, and later evolved into the Pahala rasgulla).

That said, I don't see any unique content in the article Khiramohana, and it should probably be redirected to this article, especially since you have indicated that you intended to create it as a fork of this article. utcursch | talk 16:28, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

@utcursch | talk(there was a wrong addressing, now corrected)

Since, SpacemanSpiff last message to me that I have seen earlier today, has expressed his displeasure and about my disrupting behaviour. So I have decided to let him feel free and relaxed, since then I am trying to restraint myself in coming to Wikipedia, though I am keeping a close watch on all the Wikipedia emails. However, I am supposed to answer questions, for clear mutual understandings, so I am replying this.

I would like to mention that the above statement, made by me, is a conclusive one that does not show the reasons for coming in the same. However, after going through the entire reasons available above here under heading "Why Odisha’s Rasgulla and Khiramohana are same," one may be able to better understand why I have come to this conclusive statement.

It is necessary to mention here that both the articles Khiramohana and Rosogolla were created by me on the same date, and during their creation I have some points in my minds in favour of their creation. So I am not new to any of these articles but aware of them considerably. I have also included "citation needed tag" on Khiramohana article. Both of them were created by me on same grounds and standings - those I considered reasonable.

However, I know it very well that both Khiramohana and Rosogolla articles stood good chance of survival (they really are) but Rosogolla is deleted while not Khiramohana. This is very questionable. To understand my view, It is necessary to consider stated reasons above.

Finally, irrespective of these articles outcome (that depends on application of certain principle) none, but I have one thing to expect from Wikipedia - A reasonable consideration.

Thanks Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 00:40, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Moving Article Rasgulla → Rosogolla would benefit the wider community.

@Jenks24 (talk

Wikipedia is not a dictionary but an encyclopedia, therefore, the content and title name of an article there, necessarily needs to be encyclopedic, not as in the case of dictionaries. The naming of the sweet cannot straightforwardly choose as Rasgulla. However, the naming in Wikipedia appears to be followed only the Oxford dictionaries, as an anglicize name loaned from a foreign country. But the name obviously misspelled there, as the dictionary mentions rasgullā originates in Hindi – so the name to be disambiguated to avoid confusion with Rosogolla for the reasons many reliable English-language sources mentions the sweet name Rosogolla, The Oxford Companion to Sugar and Sweets describes Rosogolla is primarily associated with West Bengal, then Bengal in British India. The fact establishes the origin of the sweet is in Bengal - a part of greater India, not Hindi, in Bengal the sweet is called Rosogolla since its initial usage.

Nevertheless, here rises a question, whether Wikipedia must stick to its current naming when the naming is misleading or inaccurate.

As per description of Wikipedia, the naming the sweet should be seen as goals, not as rules. Whereas, considering the deleted article Rosogolla's naturalness, consistency, prevalence in many reliable English-language sources, as well as its usage around 250 million Bengali people in Bangladesh, West Bengal, other states in India and world over, the name Rosogolla has come into majority use. The Oxford Companion to Sugar and Sweets highlights Rosogolla, and describes often-spelled Rasgulla, it is a very new edition published in the United Kingdom and the US. The name Rosogolla has been preferred in several publications in United Kingdom and the US. Some of these books are (1) Milk - Beyond the Dairy: Proceedings of the Oxford Symposium on Food... by Harlan Walke, Page 58. (2) Strategic Management: Formulation, Implementation and Control, by PEARCE, Page 179. (3) Food Culture in India, by Colleen Taylor Sen.

Besides the above, there are too many reliable English sources available in the publications in the United Kingdom and the US those mention the sweet as Rosogolla. A confusing entry in the Oxford dictionaries cannot really overlook Rosogolla’s merit as a title name from the reliable English-language sources.

Therefore, my goal is to move the article Rasgulla to Rosogolla and the move would benefit a wider community.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 14:58, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

I would think that the name should of the article should be Roshogolla, as is commonly used where this dish is primarily consumed in Bengal and Odisha, to reflect the reality rather than an erroneous colonial-era Oxford dictionary Romanization. Such debates over romanization of names make one remember why Kolkata had to officially change it's name to Kolkata before dictionaries worldwide took notice and changed the listing from Calcutta. Unfortunately Roshogolla is not a municipal body or any other official authority, but the official authorities in the state of West Bengal too amply reflect the reality in always calling it Roshogolla rather than some fictitious colonial Rasgulla. As can be noticed in numerous credible news articles of very prominent mainstread media cited in the main Roshogolla article itself.

171.79.91.125 (talk) 14:59, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Names Rasgulla, Rosogolla & Indian diaspora Bangladesh redefined.

Oxford Dictionaries describe rasgulla origin from Hindi rasgullā, from ras 'juice' + gullā 'ball'. The Oxford Companion to Sugar and Sweets By Michael Krondl, Eric Rath, Laura Mason, Geraldine Quinzio, Ursula Heinzelmann. Page 580 describes, "rosogolla, often spelled rasgulla, is a popular Indian ball-shaped sweet prepared from chhana (fresh milk curd) soaked in sugar syrup. These moist treats are common sight as sweet shops across the subcontinent. In India, rosogolla is primarily associated with West Bengal, where it is just one, if perhaps the best known, of numberless chhana-based sweets." Page 359 of the same book describes, "Bengalis - inhabitants of the Indian state of West Bengal and the Republic of Bangladesh - are famous for their love of misti, or sweets, considered the apogee of the Indian sweet maker's art. Most commercial sweets are made from channa; khoa is used mainly as a secondary ingredient".... "The most famous sweets are rosogolla, a light spongy white ball of chhana served in sugar syrup; rajbhog, a giant rosogolla; a dark-colored fried version called ledikini; cham cham, small patties dipped in thick-ended milk and sprinkled with grated khoa; ras malai, khoa and sugar balls floating in cardamom-flavoured cream; and pantua, sausage-shaped spheres fried to a golden brown and dropped in sugar syrup."

Accordingly, the Article has been modified.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 22:41, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

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Origin of the sweet name.

Origin of the name Rasgulla to be disambiguated to avoid confusion with Rosogolla or Rasagola. Significantly, 254 million Bengali never use the name Rasgulla - the number is above Hindi speaking people even much above the users of the sweet calling it Rasgulla. Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 01:09, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

You've been explained this a number of times: Rasgulla is the most popular name in English sources. It doesn't matter if its origin is in Hindi, Bengali, or Japanese. utcursch | talk 01:17, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

@Snthakur: It appears you're finding it hard to understand, so I'll make it easy for you: http://i.imgur.com/BPzO0wP.png. utcursch | talk 01:40, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

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Whether biased editing.

Following revisions, and the revisions in between, need to be considered whether any biased editing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rasgulla&type=revision&diff=678212644&oldid=675385379

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 01:20, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Merged three sections on same topic. Abecedare (talk) 02:53, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive editor

It is to mention here that Move review Rasgulla and the following edit attempts are different issues.

As per suggestions of JamesBWatson 12:52, 19 August 2015 (UTC) and Human3015 04:22, 18 August 2015 (UTC) on my Talk page Snthakur I have made following revision attempts with the 1st edit summary "Redefined - Rasgulla, Rosogolla, Indian diaspora Bangladesh" follows:

→ "Rasgulla" & "Mauritius" → Snthakur 1st revision → "Rasgulla(hi)[7] or, Rosogolla(bn)[8][9]" & "Bangladesh"

→ utcursch undid above, and edits Rasagola → "Rasgulla, also known as Rosogolla (in Bengali) or Rasagola (in Odiya)" & "Bangladesh" (it was acceptable to me)

→ utcursch again undid above, and removes Bangladesh → "Rasgulla in Hindi, known as Rosogolla in Bengali or Rasagola in Odiya" & "South Asian"

→ utcursch again removes Rosogolla, Rasagola including Bangladesh, creates a section "Name'→ The dessert is known as Rosogolla or Roshogolla in Bengali and Rasagola in Odiya .....

However, utcursch's act of removing Rosogolla (in Bengali) or Rasagola (in Odiya)" & "Bangladesh" is an arbitrary act and not with consensus either with JamesBWatson and Human3015 and Snthakur

Therefore there was an obvious concern with disruptive editor utcursch for the above content issue.

Please suggest so as to what shall I do now?

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 11:03, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

• Rasgulla Move Review here Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2015_August 115.184.214.253 (talk) 11:29, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

@Snthakur: If an editor is disruptive, consider discussing the issue with him/her. If the editor doesn't comply (or) continues his/her disruptive behavior, consider reporting them at WP:AN/I. Before reporting them, make sure you've kept yourself clean. There are instances in which ones report backfire on themselves. Hope that helps. Regards—☮JAaron95 ^Talk 11:20, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

As Snthakur has been blocked for 48 hours for disruptive editing, don't expect a reply. Doug Weller (talk) 14:30, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Leaving this for Snthakur when he returns: Please read WP:BRD. If you make a change, and someone disagrees with it, you should discuss it on the talk page and not add it back until a consensus is reached.

Especially in this case, where your obsession with the spelling "Rosogolla" has not been taken well by multiple other editors, you need to stop engaging in revert wars and repetitive comments.

I gave the reasons for undoing your edit in edit summaries, as well as on your talk page:

1. Bangladesh is included in the term "Indian subcontinent", so there is no need to mention it separately. Also, the term "Indian diaspora" does not refer to people of Bangladesh.
2. Just because a term originated in Hindi doesn't mean that it's a Hindi term. Oxford English Dictionary is an English dictionary and lists Rasgulla under "British & World English" terms. It literally says on that page that it's an English definition.

The Bengali Wikipedia article is at রসগোল্লা, the Odiya article is at ରସଗୋଲା -- both of them maintain the same spelling throughout. Similarly, the English Wikipedia article should maintain the same spelling throughout for consistency. The dish has several variant spellings in English, and mentioning them all in the lead section creates clutter. And that spelling is the one that is most common in English language (this has been discussed to death in your failed move request, so I'm not going to repeat those arguments again).

utcursch | talk 14:55, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 September 2015

Dear Madam / sir, to support rasgola / Kheera Mohan as Orissa dish below are points. 1. Chenna / chees is not only invented by portugees, it has invented by various places in world. 2. In orssa there are two verieties of chees 1. kheera Chenna 2. dahi chenna and both are part of oriya local festivals. 3. the Boiling process of Rasgola / Kheera Mohan is very likely from Orsaa as there are so many recipe are done by Boilling process and still oriya people do it on Oriya parba/festivals example: water boiled Mandaa peetha(amny festivals) and paani gaintha(offered during deepabali) 4. No foreign products are offered in jagannath temple like Patoes(bilati Alu, Tamatoes(bilati baigana) and so many.The offering process is too strict in puri that it is unlikely might have introduced by any one from bengal. 5. Most cook from orissa doing job in rich bengoli house.who might spread rasgola in bengal. 6. Most likely this testy Rasgola inveted by Orissa , but due to lack of publishity , powerfull benolis made it on their name. 7. Bengoli have tried to supress Oriya as language,so they might have renamed Kheera mohan / Rasa Golaa as rasgulla. 8. Chhapan Bhoga (56 items of Puri) belongs to lord jagganath. thats why rasgola which is not in 56 items is offered to Maha Laxmi. 9. perishible Rasgola with semolina invented in orissa, then that is improved to keep for more days, Bengoli people made is spongy with out semolina. 10. chenna gaja also another version of rasgola which is most likely from orissa 11. In Kendra para, Chhatia batta, Lord jagannath is offered Rasaa Bali, another version of rasgola.which is very old temple of Orissa. 12. some times powerfull established people put their name or seal on good product, as america was trying to make paitent on turmeric and neem.simillarly Bengolis established this rasgola as their as they were more power full due to British rule.

other supporting truths

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13. simmilarly they more speak about Neta ji subash chandra bose as bengoli, who is an Oriya(bengoli origin not bengoli as he born and brought up in cuttack) from Cuttack, many people do not know. 14. Kalpana chawala might be Indian origin, but she is American as she born and brought up in USA. 115.99.98.108 (talk) 06:19, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not requested a specific change in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
More importantly, you have not cited reliable sources to back up each one of your 14 requests, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 08:00, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

″Rashogolla, like the most sweets in India will always and forever be a Bengali thing. Remember that Bengali households still are known for their amazing food culture and this fact is known world-wide :)

is this the only piece of heritage that you can show off to the world? Seriously there are better things to latch onto

chaitanna mahaprabhu did come from GEOGRAPHICAL ORISSA but back then there was no orissa, are we forgetting this?

and your dear lord ASHOKA the great wasn’t your hero too until he defeated your so called “kalinga empire”. he was a scavenger of kalinga and not a king your bali, sumatra etc “J(y)ATRAS” came form LORD ASHOKA’S INVASION of your pillage state.

tanSEN was bengali my dear friend, so were a lot of other people! want to see the entire list as it stands today? so was subash chandra bose and sri aurobindo :)

and i can name a million others and i am proud to say our greateness can be exerted beyond our national borders. we are the fifth largest speakers!

these guys are not just making India proud but half the world knows about these guys dude :)

c’mon we bengalis have won pretty much every award in the world stage you name it we have it and we are damn proud of what we have :)

its the only country in the world which took rebellion because it couldn’t speak its mother tongue and it won! and won so hard that the UN had to adopt that day as the international language day, which celebrates languages from all over the world.

did you know that the FAMOUS SEARS TOWER is architectured by another bengali?″

KAMONASISH AAYUSH MAZUMDAR

MBA, Institute of Management Technology, Ghaziabad

Co-Founder at Yappily (earlier known as Koove) Bengaluru, Karnataka — Preceding unsigned comment added by AngelicdevilKAM (talk • contribs) 05:17, 18 August 2016 (UTC)