Talk:Rape fantasy

this article is deceptive

this isn't what used to be at this URL, and it is frankly a bunch of bullshit. see the "can't rape the willing" comment below. garbage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.151.72 (talk) 05:32, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Consenting Adults

Are we absolutely sure that role-played rape fantasy can, by definition, only occur between "adults"? It seems like the article is trying to be politically correct, and letting PC override objectivity. It seems NPOV. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.153.0.24 (talk) 03:57, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

Well if it involved underage children, or non-consenting adults, it would be actual rape, and not a rape fantasy. Mdwh 23:18, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that me meant is what if both persons are under-age and cannot, by definition, consent? P91 (talk) 11:56, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

How can someone not be in control of their own fantasy? I realize that some people think this a highly important point in regard to rape fantasies, and for some in regards to porn and erotica -- the consumers of porn/erotica are in control of what and when they do so -- although of course some people would put antennas on hills all over the world to control our fantasies and other thoughts if they could do so -- but in both cases it seems a patently silly distinction to simply state. Surely it needs some sort of conceptual background or something. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.23.224.120 (talk) 04:07, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I think it was only the term "adults" (which is usually defined as "non-minors", and often implies those above the age of 18 or above the age of 21, those concepts coincidentally not always in line with each other, since sexual age of consent is frequently a lower than 21 and sometimes even lower than 18) that they found a little... off. It is technically true actually that two minors, in some jurisdictions at least, or two teenagers above say, 16 (and therefore above the age of sexual consent in most areas of the U.S. and U.K, but not legally a full-fledged adult nor societally considered an adult in many situations) could legally engage in it by consent with each other without it being defined as "rape". The solution I think - to be 100% neutral and accurate at the same time - would be to change the word "adults" to "individuals" in the phrase "consenting adults". I mean, there's nothing really wrong with saying "individuals" instead, after all, and it really would be accurate in all senses. Even if it's a little picky, but hey, picky isn't always bad since accuracy = good on Wikipedia! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.238.22.61 (talk) 20:12, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

The final paragraph of the section on role playing is clearly prescribing behavior rather than describing it. Clearly some people somewhere in the world who engage in role playing do not carefully negotiate the rules of their role-playing games. Sure some do not use safe words. Encyclopedias are descriptive rather than prescriptive. Neither should they be venues of propaganda aimed at vanilla readers. If the section is a how-to-manual, it should use the word "should" rather than others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.23.224.120 (talk) 04:20, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Move

Can I ask why this was moved from Rape fantasy? I presume this was meant to be moved to Consensual forced fantasy? Even so, that term seems to be a neologism, I feel the term "rape fantasy" was better and more widely used. Mdwh 18:26, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

The word "rape" strongly implies non-consensual force. I think using a term like consensual force is much more neutral and accurate depiction of the topic of the article. Or do you have other ideas?--Sonjaaa 19:26, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Rape fantasy is a far more common term, regardless of how inaccurate it may be in some contexts (in others, it's appropriate though - for instance, many erotica or romance stories involve an initially if not wholly non-consensual act, but end with the heroine in love with her rapist. Yes, I find it kind of odd too, but it's actually fairly common on some archives...). That said, so long as "rape fantasy" forwards to this article and this article covers all the usages of "rape fantasy", I don't really have too big a problem with it, personally. :) Even if the term "consensual force fantasy" seems a little pompous. "Consensual forced fantasy" though, doesn't sound accurate to what it's describing, or even particularly sensical, as grammatically it could easily be interpreted as consenting to have a fantasy forced on you - as opposed to a fantasy about something being forced on you or whatnot (or "forced" in satirical quotes, to be entirely accurate, though...). At least the current title makes coherent grammatical sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.238.22.61 (talk) 20:29, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

The fantasies described in the article are widely known as "rape fantasies". In contrast, no one calls them "consensual force fantasies". Even if it were true that Sonjaaa's invented neologism were "more neutral and accurate" -- an assertion with which I disagree -- that would not be sufficient argument for moving the article from the common term to an invented neologism.

For describing one variety of what falls under the general term "rape fantasy" -- i.e., consenting partners roleplaying a scenario in which force is used -- then perhaps "consensual force fantasy" makes sense. But the term is confusing and misleading as applied to the general phenomenon -- when a man or a woman lies on their bed alone and fantasizes a scenario of being nonconsentually subjected to forcible sex, how are we to understand "consensual force fantasy" to apply? In the fantasy world, there is no consent; in the real world, there is no other person to consent with.

I highly suggest that this article be moved back to the title rape fantasy. Frankly, I think it reflects poorly on Wikipedia that it's been allowed to stay under a neologism title for almost three months. -- 192.250.34.161 14:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I've been working on sexual fantasy for a while and I've always read it as "Forced sex fantasy."-Wafulz (talk) 23:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I've come back to this page after a while, and I'm still a bit uneasy with the section suggesting that rape fantasy is a possible 'treatment' for trauma left over from previous real assaults. It does look a bit like 'apologia in advance'. Someone very close to me was sexually abused as a young girl, and she says that the only real 'closure' from the residual trauma would be to (30 years later) drop a large concrete paving slab on his head from a sixth floor balcony. The woman concerned does admit to having a mild rape fantasy, but it's more related to the fictional romantic 'bodice-ripper' scenario than anything 'real'. 160.84.253.241 (talk) 12:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the previous poster. I've had rape fantasies (not 'bodice-ripper') since I was 8 years old, and I was in no way, shape or form abused as a child (I also enjoy my fantasies very much). Also, I think it's very stigmatizing to only mention this in the section about women's fantasies - I think that the theory of trauma has more to do with women's role in society and how we view them/ourselves, than it has to do with fact. A woman fantasizing about a thing such as rape surely has to be mentally traumatized in some way (obvious sarcasm is obvious I hope). In fact; that theory results in women, such as myself, who have these fantasies to be judged by our spouses as well as society; I have been told numerous times that my fantasies are unhealthy and that I need psychiatric treatment. I suppose that they react in that way because they don't understand the fantasy, and just assume that the person is mentally traumatized (note: I do believe that such traumas can manifest in sexual fantasies, as it is mentioned in the main article). I suggest that a separate section is created for theories, studies and such. This article needs a lot more information, but there is generally little information to be found on this subject since 1) it's taboo and 2) a lot of people feel guilty about their fantasy and will deny that they enjoy it or that they even have it. ---Thm 11:16, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

About the term, we use 'rape fantasy' ourselves since it's the simplest way to describe it - but 'ravishment' is also becoming a popular term. I don't like using the word 'rape' at all, since the fantasy is about dominance and submission or lust/desire - NOT about being raped or raping someone, and I feel that using 'rape' about this fantasy is to trivialize actual rape. I like the idea of 'consensual forced sex' but it's too long and complicated. 'rape fantasy' and 'ravishment' are the current terms that are being used, so it would be appropriate to use them - even though the former isn't exactly very PC. Also, I feel that it needs to be further emphasized how none of us (That's right, none - not "we seldom wish...") actually want to be raped or rape someone; my nightmare is to actually be raped. There is a paraphilia called "biastophilia" which involves being sexually aroused by actual rape, whether it's the action of rape or fantasizing about raping someone. 'rape fantasy' is somewhat misleading and it fails to distinguish between fantasizing about real rape (raping someone or being raped), and fantasizing about being dominated/dominating someone or the popular 'bodice-ripper' fantasy; there's an enormous difference between fantasizing about real rape and 'rape fantasy'. We generally despise rape as much as the next person, and we try to let people know that our fantasies and role-playing is in no way, shape or form associated with real rape. Those who are sexually aroused by the thought or act of actually raping someone need psychiatric treatment. It's difficult to explain, and I doubt that there are any citable sources about this. We generally stay underground and try to be anonymous (especially on the internet) since there's always a risk when sharing our fantasy that someone will misunderstand us and think that we actually want to be raped - and, god forbid, track one of us down (hence why I'm leaving my IP out of my signature). ---Thm 11:16, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

As an editor just pointed out, one problem is that ravishment often means rape anyway. On Wikipedia, the ravishment article redirects to rape. I suppose the difference is that whilst rape always means non-consensual, ravishment can also mean "The act of seizing by force" [1] which strictly speaking doesn't imply non-consensuality, and as you say may be closer to what many people fantasise. I reverted the edit saying ravishment is the same as rape, because that's not the context that we're using it as. But shouldn't we really be talking about "ravishment fantasy" (at least in the lead)? After all, surely "ravishment" refers to the act, but this is an article about the "sexual fantasy" (only later on in the Roleplay section do e discuss the act)? Mdwh (talk) 12:44, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Move to "Forced sex fantasy"

The scientific literature I've read has almost always referred to the phenomenon as "forced sex fantasy" because it is broader and includes things like coercion or seduction. I think "forced sex fantasy" is a better title.-Wafulz (talk) 15:17, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

• oppose - No ref says so, it is just a personal opinion. C.columbus (talk) 06:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

This isn't a vote, but anyway, here are some scholarly references:

• Leitenberg, Harold & Henning, Kris (1995), “Sexual Fantasy”, Psychological Bulletin 117 (3): 469-496, ISSN 0033-2909, pg 482-483. Refers to the phenomenon as a "so-called 'rape' fantasy" (quotes are verbatim). Interchangeably uses the terms "force fantasy" and "submission fantasy"
• The Journal of Sex Research Vol. 22, No. 2, pp. 162-183 May, 1986 Guided Imagery of Rape: Fantasy, Reality, and the Willing Victim Myth, uses the term "'rape' fantasy", quotes are verbatim again. Since it only covers rape, it only uses the term "'rape' fantasy"
• Women’s Erotic Rape Fantasies: An Evaluation of Theory and Research. Joseph W. Critelli and Jenny M. Bivona. DOI 10.1080/00224490701808191. Uses both terms "forced sex" and "rape fantasy"
• Strassberg, Donald S. & Lockerd, Lisa K. (1998), “Force in Women’s Sexual Fantasies”, Archives of Sexual Behavior 27 (4): 403-415, ISSN 1573-2800. Refers to them as "force fantasies" or "coercion fantasies."

What I'm saying is that "rape fantasy" is a common term, but it isn't preferred when discussing the whole spectrum of coercion; It has a very narrow definition. Given that it's impossible to separate the study of rape in sexual fantasies from the study of force in sexual fantasies, they need to be discussed together in this article, and "rape fantasy" doesn't have the appropriate breadth.-Wafulz (talk) 21:09, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

It's hardly impossible to distinguish between the two, the scenario in the fantasy may be the same but it's what we find arousing in the fantasy that distinguishes between all the variants. Being sexually aroused by the thought of raping someone in 'real life' has nothing to do with 'rape fantasy', it's called 'biastophilia' and it's as dangerous as pedophilia. About the term; I suggest that all terms are included. 'forced sex fantasy' would be the PC way to describe it, but we ourselves use 'rape fantasy' and 'ravishment' - I suggest that all three are included in the article. The phrase 'rape fantasy' fails miserably in distinguishing between the healthy and the unhealthy fantasy; and we try our best to emphasize the difference between the two, but it's very difficult. ---Thm 11:59, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

"Can't rape the willing"

There should be something written of the philosophical paradox wherein the common idiom is found that one "cannot rape the willing" 67.5.156.242 (talk) 10:47, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Why? Those who have rape fantasies have no desire to be raped, and a rape fantasy often includes coercion.-Wafulz (talk) 16:47, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course you can rape a willing person - remember Max Cady's vile date in "Cape Fear". To have sex with her, he would not have had to rape her, but he utterly wanted to hurt her. He emphazized her suffering. This corresponds to the second male rape phantasy which could also be called the anti-social one. So raping a willing person is especially vile.

Inversely, you can't be willing to be raped in the proper sense of the word (unless you haven't reached the age of consent, e.g. a 14yo boy desiring an adult woman). You can be willing to be taken by force, of course, e.g. as a woman who thinks that a real man is like good music - capturing and overwhelming.--Slow Phil (talk) 20:20, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Additionally, the word "rape" also stands for abduction by force, e.g. the rape of the Sabine women. This term doesn't regard the question wether any of these women was anytime forced to sexual intercourse without liking it. Of course, you can want it: As a daughter of very traditional parents who just found a bachelor for you - whom you dislike, you an hope that your real favourite rapes you in this sense.--Slow Phil (talk) 20:33, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

This seems like maybe a good place to mention this somewhat related issue: "The difference between a fantasy and a real life situation is that in the fantasy, the person remains in full control of what happens and maintains their power." The article seems to assume that no one ever fantasizes about actually being raped, and that all (or almost all) rape fantasies would (if fulfilled) only involve consenting roleplayers. Such an assertion requires some sort of evidence; there's nothing about fantasizers of rape-roleplaying which logically precludes fantasizers of actual rape (which, presumably, would be addressed in the article 'rape fantasy'). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.172.85.6 (talk) 19:38, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

There are in fact people who are aroused by fantasizing (or acting upon) real rape. 'biastophilia' is a paraphilia where the person is aroused by the thought (and/or act) of sexually assaulting an unconsenting person. The 'victim' version is called 'raptophilia', and they should NOT be confused with 'rape fantasy', but mentioning biastophilia and raptophilia in the article for the sake of differentiation might be a good idea. ---Thm 12:03, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Removed uncited content from talk page

The most commonly held theory about this phenomenon is that many individuals turn to fantasies about being raped as a means of reconciling naturally-occurring sexual desires with the intense negative stigma their culture and/or creed affix to sexual activity. The fantasy serves as a psychological device through which the fantasizer can safely indulge in intense sexual experiences without guilt, by absolving themselves of responsibility for participating in the act. Many socially acceptable examples can be found in "bodice ripper" fiction.

Rape fantasies can also represent an outlet for sexually submissive and/or dominant individuals. In such fantasies they can imagine themselves as having or lacking sexual control or power without actually participating in an illegal or immoral act.

Another relatively common theory is that the attraction some men feel toward raping is an evolutionary relic of prehistoric man (thousands of years ago, those willing to rape were more likely to have their genes passed on). According to these sociobiological theories of rape, rape fantasy fulfills a hereditary impulse that in civilized society where real rape has become socially intolerable.

Regardless, the presence of rape fantasies in a community or individual cannot be taken to imply that the fantasizers in reality condone rape, desire to rape others, or wish to be raped themselves. - 24.21.197.163 (talk) 19:42, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

1st paragraph, last sentence

"It can be feeling of domination or submission also, as someone fantasises of forcing someone, or being forced, to have sex."
Assuming the usual case is a victim's fantasy, the last sentence should represent the rapist side only. "being forced" makes no sense - this is already covered. Would you agree? Thanks Kvsh5 (talk) 08:48, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

There is no "usual" case, most men fantasize about forcing someone, while most women fantasize about being forced; depending on their sexual orientation and preference (dominant or submissive). So both sides need to be covered. And using the words "rapist" and "victim" is hardly appropriate; I prefer using "dominant" and "submissive" when it comes to forced sex fantasy, since it shouldn't ever be confused with fantasies or desires about actually raping or being raped. There is no victim and there is no rapist; there's a dominant person and a submissive person. ---Thm 11:16, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. First, Sorry about the terms I used, it was for clarity only. Second, please read the openning of the article - seems like the focus is the submissive side and the last sentence should describe the dominant side - note the "also" before the comma. Kvsh5 (talk) 20:18, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Of the Fantasy section and subsections

The first part of the general "Fantasy" section describes a demographic of men who had fantasized about having the impression of being raped. However, the section following the subheader of "Male fantasy" only describes men who fantasize about being in the dominant position. Seems a bit sexist to me. Actually, considering the minimal content of the "Fantasy" section, its subsections should probably be removed and the overall info consolidated. --OGoncho (talk) 09:55, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this is the exact issue I came in here to flag. While I see little cause to infer sexism on the author's part, there's a clear lack of structural rigor in the contradiction between the first paragraph, where "men's rape fantasies most commonly take a passive role," and the very next paragraph, where "men's rape fantasies all come in one of two flavors: a dominant role or an extremely dominant role." I'm no professional and can't say if one assertion is more accurate than the other; all I know is it can't go both ways at the same time. OGoncho's suggestion of omitting this rubbish altogether works fine for me. --just some guy, 4 October 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.68.168.13 (talk) 17:29, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

As Therapy

I am about to make a substantial admission against interest; Leave neither pity nor condemnation (I don’t want nor need the one and just don’t care about the other):
I myself was sexually assaulted in 2003 in a hazing incident that got extremely out-of-control (they got very much carried away). Part (albeit a small part) of my therapy was engaging in rape fantasy (both as perpetrator and vicitim). The doctor I dealing with at the time told me it was a process called “mastery,” in which the victim of a traumatic event takes control of the trauma; in children victimized by sexual abuse, he said they re-write the story where the event occurred, with it ending in a pleasant experience, rather than the abuse (whether this is still practiced or not I can not say).
While engaging in this phase of my life, I found ‘most’ of the other people so interested had themselves been sexually victimized at one point or another, to varying degrees. I submit that this aspect should be included, in at least a blurb under a subheading under roleplay. A. J. REDDSON

Are there newer studies?

I find it really unusual that the studies being used to support this article on social behavior are 30-40 years old. A lot has happened in American culture since the 1970s! The most recent study is 15 years old, which is slightly better, but I still question the usefulness of 40 year old studies on judging the frequency of culturally-conditioned fantasies.

This article is also solely focused on the woman's desire to be overpowered. Where are the studies on why men fantasize about being rapists? This isn't a one-sided encounter. 69.125.134.86 (talk) 19:29, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

My comment would be, in the absence of newer studies, the language "rape fantasy was once a common sexual fantasy", means that nothing has changed, and it still is a common sexual fantasy of both women and men. And a 15 year old study is NOT that old; that's not even one generation to provide a change in thought between generations. 20 year olds who participated in that study are only 35. I'd want to change the language into 'Rape Fantasy is a common sexual fantasy' as there is no evidence to provide that this has changed. I will plan on making that edit if there are no objections with sources that it HAS changed and is no longer true that rape fantasy is a common sexual fantasy. Awolnetdiva (talk) 21:02, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I think the Fantasy section definitely needs rewriting but writing "Rape fantasy is a common sexual fantasy" would be synthesis if the sources support an older study. I would suggest completely rewriting it or removing the word "common" as that is the part that heavily relies on contemporary sources. In other words, I would just remove the sentence "Studies from...men and women" as to say it is still common would need newer references --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 21:25, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

On 30 October 2014, a new study about sexual fantasies was published in the Journal of Sexual Medicine [2]. I can't access it right now, but excerpts in the media told that a high number of women (30-60 %) had fantasies about being dominated. One of the mentioned such categories was a rape fantasy, maybe the full study has something more accurate about it. --Pudeo' 23:07, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Everybody Lies (2017)

See Everybody Lies (book).

The subsection Chapter 4: Digital Truth Serum — The Truth About Sex has quite a bit on the expression of sexual fantasy on the Internet.

From Everybody lies: how Google search reveals our darkest secrets — 30 September 2018

Porn featuring violence against women is also extremely popular among women. It is far more popular among women than men.

I hate saying that because misogynists seem to love this fact. Fantasy life isn't always politically correct.

The rate at which women watch violent porn is roughly the same in every part of the world. It isn't correlated with how women are treated.

I don't have the book itself handy, and the websites that discuss this portion of the book's contents are awfully gun shy, based on my recollection from when I did read this book. — MaxEnt 01:37, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Studies have found rape fantasy is a common sexual fantasy among both men and women

I've added a citation needed to this sentence, because it just doesn't sound right. I think this subject goes deeper than mere fantasy and is a consequence of a violent human history, to which women have probably suffererd more, or at least in different ways to men — Preceding unsigned comment added by FlamingDeath (talk • contribs) 22:06, 8 July 2020 (UTC)