Talk:Raouf Hannachi

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Member of al Qaeda...

I checked the first reference listed to substantiate Hannachi was a member of al Qaeda. Oops. It doesn't even mention al Qaeda. So I trimmed it. Geo Swan (talk) 21:52, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

I checked the second reference. Oops. While it does say he was a member of al Qaeda, this claim is based on an assocation with Abu Zubaydah. Initially the Bush administration did claim that Abu Zubaydah was not only an al Qaeda member, but was number three in al Qaeda's hierarchy. Now however it is generally acknowledged that Abu Zubaydah was neither an al Qaeda leader, or even a member. Rather he played a role in a much smaller organization, that ran a single camp, that was a rival to al Qaeda.

What the article says is:

In Montreal, Ressam met a man named Abderraouf Hannachi. Hannachi was a member of al Qaeda and was actively recruiting individuals to join the holy war and attend training in Afghanistan camps sponsored by Osama bin Laden. Hannachi worked in conjunction with Abu Zubaydah, an al Qaeda leader who served as a gatekeeper for recruits traveling to the Afghanistan camps.

So, based on this reference, at least, I question whether the article should assert, as if it were a fact. Geo Swan (talk) 22:02, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

The third reference says:

In the summer of 1997, he returned from military training in al Qaeda's Camp Khalden in Afghanistan, bragged about what he had learned and declared that he had found meaning as a "warrior." Labsi and Ressam decided to try it out for themselves and asked Hannachi to arrange for their training. Hannachi did so via Hussein (abu Zubaydah) in Pakistan.

The Khalden Camp is the camp run by Abu Zubaydah's organization. It predates Al Qaeda, being started by the CIA to train the foreigners it had helped travel to Afghanistan to fight the Soviets. Those motivated volunteers needed a basic training camp, which the CIA funded. The CIA sought Saudi help financing the camp. And when the CIA lost interest in Afghanistan, after the Soviets were kicked out, and they stopped financing the camp, it was able to keep running, because it still had Saudi donors paying the bills.

Al Qaeda didn't set up its own training camps, in Afghanistan, when Osama bin Laden was kicked out of Sudan, in 1995. He was jealous of the Khalden camp. His training camps were his chief means of recruiting. His training camps were a key marketing tool he bragged about to his Saudi donors. He saw every recruit who went to Khalden, and every Riyal donated to support Khalden, as something robbed from him.

In 2000 he convinced the Taliban to give an ultimatim to the director of the Khalden camp. The Taliban decreed that either the camp could be turned over to al Qaeda, with the director and other staff swearing personal loyalty to bin Laden, or it would be shut down. The director stood up to the Taliban, bin Laden and al Qaeda. He had key ideological differences, and refused to serve under bin Laden. In particular, he differed over whether a first strike should be launched against the USA, and whether civilians should be targeted.

So, I don't think this reference supports the assertion Hannachi was a member of al Qaeda, either. Geo Swan (talk) 22:18, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

The final reference, the 2002 Seattle Times article says:

Hannachi told the young men he had trained at Osama bin Laden's Khalden camp in Afghanistan. He had learned how to fire handguns, AK-47s, even rocket-propelled grenade launchers. He had learned about explosives and urban warfare. He had found meaning as a warrior. They could, too. Hannachi was a regular presence at a mosque called Assuna Annabawiyah, a nondescript storefront with a faded yellow plastic sign. Three doors down, the neighborhood McDonald's was crowded with Middle Eastern and North African immigrants drinking coffee and eating Big Macs... What CSIS apparently didn't know was this: Hannachi was a successful recruiter for bin Laden's al-Qaida. He worked closely with Abu Zubaydah, gatekeeper to bin Laden's training camps, the man who coordinated the entry of recruits to Afghanistan.

The Khalden camp did train attendees to fire guns, and RPGs, just like Osama bin Laden's training camps. But, as above, it was not an al Qaeda camp.

WP:Verify says our content is what RS say, not what we know.

But, we are also supposed to attribute stuff, not put it in the wikipedia's voice. The bald assertions that Hannachi was a member of al Qaeda all are based on his association with Abu Zubaydah, then widely and incorrectly accepted as an al Qaeda leader -- and now refuted by the Senate report.

Now what? Geo Swan (talk) 23:52, 26 October 2018 (UTC)