Talk:Ranks in the French Navy

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Just curious what your reference is for mon = sir. PerlKnitter 13:06, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Knowing several French officers who told me so, books, commons knowledge. Rama 13:23, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Also this :

Dans l'armée, l'usage, à l'exception de la marine, est de dire mon commandant, mon général, le terme mon n'étant pas un pronom possessif mais l'abréviation de monsieur. [1]

(which reads "In the army, usage, except for the Navy, is to say "mon commandant", "mon général", the term "mon" not begin a possessive pronoun, but the abreviation of "monsieur"). Rama 13:50, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

The latter is probably where my confusion enters in. I tend to parse 'monsieur' as 'my sir' or the English version of 'my lord'. I understand that it is used more as 'sir' or 'mister' today, but my mind still wants to read it as the other. PerlKnitter 12:25, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I thin kI see, it is a good question. In "monsieur", it is correct that the "sir" or "lord" part is the word "sieur" (like in "Armand du Plessis, sieur de Richelieu"), which is equivalent to the more modern "seigneur" (=lord). You can confirm this with the plural "messieurs" (mes-sieurs).

I cannot really answer how this "mon" in "mon lieutenant/captaine/commandant/..." came to be an abbreviation of this, yet, this is confirmed in all sources about protocol. I'll try to see whether I can ask this question to someone knowledgeable about it. Cheers ! Rama 16:38, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I do not understand what you mean by "Commanding officers have titles of capitaine". Could you kindly explain? --F Sykes 15:42, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes. Hum. It is slightly more subtle that that, but to be short, senior officers whom you would expect to be in charge of naval units have rank beginning with "capitaine":

• Capitaine de corvette ("corvette captain", equivalent to an army major)
• Capitaine de frégate ("frigate captain", equivalent to an army lieutenant-colonel)
• Capitaine de vaisseau ("ship-of-the-line captain", equivalent to an army colonel)

Of course, you can have a "lieutenant de vaisseau" in charge of smaller units (patrol boats for instance), and a typical "capitaine de vaisseau" is often in charge of a division of smaller vessels rather than in command of large warships like the Charles De Gaulle of the SNLE/NG.

Also, the "capitaines" in the Navy are addressed as "Commandant", which is a further source of confusion, since both "capitaine" and "commandant" are distinct ranks in the army (captain and major, respectively).

I hope that my explanation doesn't confuse more than it helps.... don't hesitate to ask further in doubt ! Cheers ! Rama 16:20, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

This is highly inaccurate (at least concerning the French Navy, of which we are talking here). The ranks "Capitaine de {corvette, frégate, vaisseau" are never ever referred to as "capitaines" in the French Navy. They are "Commandants". You must understand the difference between the rank and the style: the style "capitaine" is how you should adress a "lieutenant de vaisseau", that is a Navy lieutenant. Moreover, a Capitaine de vaisseau's typical bill is CO of a destroyer (Georges-Leygues, Cassard, Forbin, or Aquitaine classes), of a LHD (Mistral class). There are almost no CV in charge of "a division of smaller vessels", except the CV commanding the SSN squadron and the CV commanding the SSBN squadron. 86.211.167.193 (talk) 20:35, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Translation Question: What's the source for translation that you use, since the titles for officers in French in the Canadian Forces maritime Command are identical?--Mtnerd 18:37, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Canadian Translations to French naval ranks

As an naval officer of the Canadian Armed Forces, I have noticed that the rank titles used here are direct translations and does not really explain what the rank is in English. Therefore, here is how I would translate these titles:

Aspirant

• Midshipman; or
• Naval Cadet

+Eafile — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C50:5C80:C37:A84D:7E01:7730:E89D (talk) 23:12, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Enseigne de vaisseau de deuxième classe

• Acting Sub-Lieutenant (For the Commonwealth types); or
• Ensign (for the American types)

Enseigne de vaisseau de première classe

• Sub-Lieutenant (For the Commonwealth types); or
• Lieutenant Junior Grade (for the American Types)

Lieutenant de vaisseau

• Lieutenant

Capitaine de corvette

• Lieutenant Commander

Capitaine de frégate

• Commander

Capitaine de vaisseau

• Captain

Contre-amiral

• Rear Admiral
• Personal note - however, this rank, I believe is equal to a Commodore or an American naval Rear Admiral Lower Half.

Vice-amiral

• Vice Admiral
• Personal note - however, this rank, I believe is equal to a Rear Admiral

Vice-amiral d'escardre

• Fleet Vice Admiral
• Personal note - however, this rank, I believe is equal to a Vice Admiral

Amiral

• Admiral

Conclusions

Thank you for considering my propositions. user:ctjj.stevenson 16 May 2006

Mon again

I tried to clarify the mon issue a bit. Mon does not mean sir, ever. That's very misleading to someone who doesn't know French. It could be said to be elliptical for monsieur here, though. (Note that monsieur is simply mon sieur run together. Sieur, while literally "lord", doesn't really translate -- old-fashioned usage would refer to a commoner in the third person as, for example, le Sieur Boulanger (Mr. Boulanger). A noble got addressed as monseignieur (my lord). Tkinias 17:36, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

BTW, the linked page from the Ministry of Culture refers to mon as not being a possessive pronoun in this usage; that's just in the context of the feminist language issue (is a female captain ma capitaine? they say no). Tkinias 17:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm french and I don't speak english very well, but I think I can help you about the "mon". The "Mon" that soldiers says before the rank is really "Monsieur", and the "story" which is write about the decision of Napoléon after the Trafalgar Battle is what french sailors learn in the navy. For a woman, we don't say "mon" before the rank. For example, if a 'colonel" is a woman, we call she "Madame le colonel". Sailors and quarter masters are the "Equipage". Equipage is the unit, as warrant officers, Seniors officers, etc. And I don't know how you have found that warrant officers had an anchor on their insign, but it's wrong except for the Major. Good continuation ;) 11 Jan 2007

Anchor on shoulder straps

I am an active french officer. A new decret imposes the presence of an anchor on the insign for the month of july 2008 (it was july 2007 but postponed for one year) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.120.221.230 (talk) 12:14, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

---

French navy rank insignias look different from what is displayed on this page. Size and colour of some stripe ribbons should be altered. It is true that the anchor is now embroidered on shoulder boards (red or gold thread depending on rank). The French navy official website (ranks)or the French wikipedia page[[2]] haven't been updated as far as the anchor is concerned but confirm there are differences, mainly for senior petty officers. An example of the red anchor on the new shoulder boards for seamen up to QM1 (jumper & long sleeve shirt) can be seen at [3]. The new type of soft shoulder board insignias for petty officers bears the same fake gold thread embroidered anchor as in the officers insignia. However, the anchor on petty officers' rigid shoulder boards (summer short sleeve shirt) differ from the more ornate gold embroidered anchor for officers. Petty officers new straps at [4]

Kerhor (talk) 21:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, dis donc Kerhor, ils sont pas un peu bizarres, les sabords d'aspi sur ton gif ? (no they're OK)

I'll try and update the SVG insignia when I have a bit of time to do so. Close-up photographs of actual insignias are most welcome, at least as documentation. Rama (talk) 09:00, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Trafalgar story

I have removed the explanation "no mon capitaine" as a consequence of Trafalgar because I have been unable to confirm it with serious sources for some time. What decided me to do so was being unable to find anything about it in Lévêque's Les officiers de marine du premier Empire; I think that if it was possible to confirm it, Lévêque would probably have done it. Of course if somebody has serious sources, by all means restore the paragraph and give the reference. Rama (talk) 09:05, 4 February 2010 (UTC)