Talk:Rangi Ruru Girls' School

Controversies section

I consider that the lengthy coverage of the serious misconduct of the te reo teacher gives undue weight to this issue. The main options are to either (1) delete the section entirely, or (2) add a significantly shorter account into the history. I have made an attempt at a short account of this issue here:

A former teacher of te reo Māori who worked at the school between 2018 and 2019 had his teacher's registration cancelled after the Teachers Disciplinary Tribunal found there had been serious misconduct involving a sexual relationship with a young female student. The complainant subsequently requested that the tribunal waive her name suppression, and the details of the case became public in 2023.(one of the citations would be included)

Comments please. Marshelec (talk) 19:37, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, agree. MurielMary (talk) 20:27, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

@MurielMary:. Do you support option (1) or (2) ? Please clarify, thanks. :) Marshelec (talk) 06:49, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Sorry! I meant I agree with option 2. MurielMary (talk) 08:43, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

I support the removal of the section. yvanyblog^(talk) 05:42, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I planned to amend that section because I also think it is out of place the way it is presented Marshelec. Could you therefore please leave it be for a day or so and see what I come up with then we can discuss here. I do not think it should be removed because it is notable but adjusted instead. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 07:52, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I support option 2. The write up can be shortened further by omitting the te reo part. All the students are female and young, hence there is scope to leave out details. Schwede66 16:36, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Here is a revised and shorter account, as suggested, with the proposed source:

A former teacher who worked at the school between 2018 and 2019 had his teacher's registration cancelled after the Teachers Disciplinary Tribunal found there had been serious misconduct involving a sexual relationship with a student. The complainant subsequently requested that the tribunal waive her name suppression, and the details of the case became public in 2023.[1] Marshelec (talk) 18:20, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

The 2019 event must be seen in a wider context, including a similar 2011 event. (This is just part of a much wider problem in NZ that warrants an article of its own,not just at RRGS.) The heading is inappropriate - "Controversies" minimises a serious problem. I know my heading is emotive but it is true IMO. The main focus of these events is the school, not just the teachers or the students, something not always made clear in various media reports. The school was in charge of staff that were putting students at risk of exploitation. That is another reason why this is notable in relation to the school itself, not just an errant teacher, which is why I think it should stay in this WP article. These two events may have minor weight in relation to the 125+ years of the school but greater weight must be given to recent years, which I think does give the topic ample weight. I also think we should avoid naming people or inserting detail that isn't directly relating to the events (yes, the first teacher was married to another teacher at the school, which is good for the media but not really relevant). I do of course have sources, not added here.

" Predatory Teachers Since 2010, there have been two events involving sexually related misconduct by teachers. In 2011, a teacher resigned after a school investigation found inappropriate behaviour with a Year 13 student. In 2023, a teacher was struck off the register by the Teachers Disciplinary Tribunal following a decision of serious misconduct with two girls, one being a Year 11 student at the school. Much of the grooming took place at another Christchurch school where the teacher was also employed. The second event prompted the education minister to meet with the Teachers’ Council to consider, with consideration for the “safety of our students”, how better to prevent such incidents arising in New Zealand in the future." Roger 8 Roger (talk) 22:38, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

This proposed longer version is 114 words. The article currently has around 407 words of content, up to the end of the Academic achievement section. The two reported instances of serious misconduct / inappropriate relationships are 12 years apart. Although these instances are deeply troubling, teacher misconduct is still a minor aspect of the subject - the school itself. Further, I note that the problem of inappropriate relationships and misconduct of teachers is unfortunately relatively common in New Zealand, with 100 instances of inappropriate relationships with students, and 27 instances of sexual abuse reported by the Teaching Council between 2005 and 2020.[2]. So the problem goes far wider than Rangi Ruru. Two instances in 12 years is a serious concern, but it does not mean that predatory teachers are characteristic of this school in particular. Based on WP:PROPORTION I do not think it is appropriate to add an additional 25% of the existing word count to cover the two instances, because it would be "disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic". The draft should be condensed...Marshelec (talk) 01:49, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree with your thinking that this predatory behaviour "warrants an article of its own". That's a much better way to deal with such a problem than to load up any short school article. Schwede66 02:31, 13 November 2023(UTC)...............

I don't think the extra line for option two makes any real difference and having one section disproportionately large is almost inevitable if an article is being improved in stages, but I can see the point if the section topic itself is out of sync with the overall subject, here RRGS. That's why I tried to broadened the topic to make it more of a pattern rather than a one off event. But I can also see that that pattern might still not be broad enough. In that case, I'm beginning to think that it might be better to remove mention of these incidents entirely. Mention of what has happened would better suit an article about the NZ-wide teaching profession, which would be interesting to do. It would likely require tact and care because it would affect many schools and involve many living people, but it should still be possible. So, how does that sound - don't mention anything in this article but leave the predatory misconduct incidents for an article dedicated to the wider problem? If there was a significantly major event or pattern of events of misconduct, such as at Dilworth School, that would be different of course. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 07:51, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

I have removed the Controversies section. However, I still think there is a case for a brief mention of the recent incident in the history section, without a specific sub-heading. Here is a possible further shortened draft:

A former teacher who worked at the school between 2018 and 2019 had his teacher's registration cancelled after the Teachers Disciplinary Tribunal found there had been serious misconduct involving a sexual relationship with a student. Details of the case became public in 2023.

Thoughts ?? Marshelec (talk) 19:30, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Shorter still:

As revealed in 2023, a former teacher who worked at the school between 2018 and 2019 had his teacher's registration cancelled after the Teachers' Disciplinary Tribunal found there had been serious misconduct involving a sexual relationship with a student.

Schwede66 21:12, 22 November 2023 (UTC)