Talk:Ramesses II/Archive 2

Hypothesized birthdate

While there is no scientific evidence, it has been hypothesized that Ramesses' birthday would fall on October 22 - due to the temple at Abu Simbel being made to light up on February 22 and October 22. I have not made an edit request to put it in as I am not sure that it would fit in the article. I feel that it wouldn't hurt to add a disclaimer and put it into the article - if that's not the case, please tell me. Zia224 (talk) 20:52, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Do you have the source? And even so, I believe it hardly can be more than a conjecture. Khruner (talk) 14:56, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

You are correct in that sense, but I don't feel it would be detrimental or confusing to include the little tidbit in the article. National Geographic Tour Egypt Facts and Details Note that it could be either 22 February or 22 October - the idea that they are the dates of Ramesses' birthday and coronation, as hypothesized above and among archaeologists. In no way is it definitive; putting it in with a disclaimer is my idea. Zia224 (talk) 23:50, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Additionally, it is listed in the Abu Simbel article, with a disclaimer (very similar to how I would envision it). Zia224 (talk) 23:53, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm not against the insertion at all, but IMHO such claims require the clarification that these are a guess: in fact, I agree with the statement (unfortunately unsourced) indicated in Abu Simbel temples which clearly specifies that those dates could be interpreted in many ways but nothing with certainty. I honestly don't know how the National Geographic and the third link are so sure about Ramesses II being born in February 22 and crowned in October 22, but it seems to be a sort of tradition or something established conventionally. I'd like to find and/or read an academic paper about the topic. Khruner (talk) 08:45, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:May 31#Accession date of Ramesses II

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:May 31#Accession date of Ramesses II. Baking Soda (talk) 23:43, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 July 2016

Giacomopozza (talk) 15:10, 2 July 2016 (UTC) Hello, I would like to add that one of the hypothetical homelands for the Sherden pirates is Bronze age Sardinia, home of the Nuragic civilization.

These would be the sources:

S. Bar; D. Kahn; J.J. Shirley (9 June 2011). Egypt, Canaan and Israel: History, Imperialism, Ideology and Literature: Proceedings of a Conference at the University of Haifa, 3-7 May 2009. BRILL. pp. 350–. ISBN 90-04-19493-2.

O'Connor & Cline 2003, p. 112-113.

Drews 1995, p. 54: "Already in the 1840s Egyptologists had debated the identity of the "northerners, coming from all lands," who assisted the Libyan King Meryre in his attack upon Merneptah. Some scholars believed that Meryre's auxiliaries were merely his neighbors on the Libyan coast, while others identified them as Indo-Europeans from north of the Caucasus. It was one of Maspero's most illustrious predecessors, Emmanuel de Rougé, who proposed that the names reflected the lands of the northern Mediterranean: the Lukka, Ekwesh, Tursha, Shekelesh, and Shardana were men from Lydia, Achaea, Tyrsenia (western Italy), Sicily, and Sardinia." De Rougé and others regarded Meryre's auxiliaries-these "peoples de la mer Méditerranée"- as mercenary bands, since the Sardinians, at least, were known to have served as mercenaries already in the early years of Ramesses the Great. Thus the only "migration" that the Karnak Inscription seemed to suggest was an attempted encroachment by Libyans upon neighboring territory."

Drews 1995, p. 49.

Gale, N.H. 2011. ‘Source of the Lead Metal used to make a Repair Clamp on a Nuragic Vase recently excavated at Pyla-Kokkinokremos on Cyprus'. In V. Karageorghis and O. Kouka (eds.), On Cooking Pots, Drinking Cups, Loomweights and Ethnicity in Bronze Age Cyprus and Neighbouring Regions, Nicosia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giacomopozza (talk • contribs) 15:28, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template.  ^B E _C K ^Y _S A ^{Y L} E _S  14:55, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Why is Amun-her-khepsef talked about during the Year 30 Sed Festival?

When Amun-her-khepsef is supposed to have died during year 26?--JaredMithrandir (talk) 07:45, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

You got a point here. I guess the most logical answer is that the "Sed festival" section is emphasized and without sources, two things that make me suspecting an original research. Hence, it is most likely that Amunherkhepeshef was long dead at this time. Khruner (talk) 16:54, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

date of discovery

Shelley's Ozymandias was apparently written in 1817 so surely the statue was discovered earlier than 1820? on the page for Ozymandias it cites 1816 as the date for the discovery — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.148.204.23 (talk) 22:17, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Yesterday announcement

I am mildly surprised not to see a mention of this story. Jim.henderson (talk) 03:13, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Red Haired Mummy

Noticed the third paragraph under Mummy section discusses the red hair of Ramses II's mummy. But it discusses how this points to Ramses having been a red head and coming from a red headed family. Concerning body decomposition, hair will loose the darker elements of its color because of the lose of the melanin pigment eumelanin. Pheomelanin is the melanin pigment responsible for red hair and lasts much longer than the eumelanin in our hair as our bodies decompose. Thus people's hair can change to red after death even when they weren't redheads in life. Making Ramses II's apparent red hair more of a byproduct of his decomposition rather than his true hair color when he was alive. (http://interactive.archaeology.org/hierakonpolis/field/hair.html)

I only bring up such a minuscule detail because the red hair of the mummy has been used to construct false narratives of the Egyptian pharaohs as having been Europeans. Which is used to support people's biases that Europeans are responsible for all great historical accomplishments and thus must be racially superior. Such a Eurocentric world view has plagued historical discourse of Egyptology and ancient history as a whole for a long time, as seen with the long time denial by researchers that Great Zimbabwe had not been founded by Europeans but instead by native Africans. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/mysteries-of-great-zimbabwe.html)

Such false notions have been used to justify racism, colonialism, and even slavery. I'd strongly advise the editors of this page to add/ revise that third paragraph under the Mummy section of Ramses II's page, so as to counter the posted theory of his hair color with further information on the topic that is well sourced. This would help dispel any potential of people relearning long debunked notions of race, the Egyptians, and Ramses II himself.

Thanks for your time!

   --Brian  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.215.146.161 (talk) 06:27, 27 April 2017 (UTC) 

section needs more references

The first part of the "Building activity and monuments" section has two long paragraphs that have no references at all. —howcheng {chat} 19:15, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

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Maybe show his face as the most prominent picture in the article?

There's no reason to hide the mummy pictures ;) 213.149.62.202 (talk) 19:10, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 September 2017

Please change "BC" (Before Christ) to the correct term "BCE" (Before Common Era) TheLucarioSlayer (talk) 19:12, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Not done: @TheLucarioSlayer: What reason particularly relating to Ramesses II warrants the change? See MOS:ERA for why such a rationale is needed. —C.Fred (talk) 19:18, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Done SparklingPessimist ^{Scream at me!} 19:21, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Where are Archives 1 through 4?

This talk page includes a link to Archive 5, but where are the links to Archives 1-4? 70.161.169.134 (talk) 21:28, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

There aren't any. Why the bot named it Archive 5 is anyone's guess. I suppose it could be moved.... Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 04:47, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

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What does "when Ramesses was about 22" mean?

When Ramesses was about 22, two of his own sons, including Amun-her-khepeshef, accompanied him in at least one of those campaigns. 

Does it mean 22 years of age? But wouldn't his sons then have been too young to accompany him? 77.189.71.76 (talk) 18:43, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Looks like the Libyan campaign might be faked

I'm not sure, due to not familiar in this area, but I found this.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/cereal-cultivation-and-nomadsedentary-interactions-at-the-late-bronze-age-settlement-of-zawiyet-umm-elrakham/BB214E2435CE3A83F08B0EF7113D85B1
Thanks, Marasama (talk) 02:58, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Ramesses II age and Years in the Throne

Ramesses II reigned for 67 Years( 62 years and 2 month to be exact) from 1279 BCE to 1213 BCE, Historical texts shows that he lived to 92 Years of age. He was born 1303 BCE and assumed power in 1279 , That makes him 24 Years of age and not a teenager — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul Aleksinko (talk • contribs) 19:20, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Vandalism

On 21st September, SparklingPessimist changed all of the dates from BC/AD to BCE/CE

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ramesses_II&oldid=801773037

This goes against MOSNUM that says you shouldn't change from one to the other. BC/AD was the original date system and thus these changes should be reverted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.54.145 (talk) 14:39, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Doesn’t add up

Currently says;

Born c1303 BC... He is believed to have taken the throne in his late teens and is known to have ruled Egypt from 1279 to 1213 BC. (66 years, and a bit.)

As 15Feb 2018 above says (in Talk). Doesn’t add up: 1303, 1279 or teen? MBG02 (talk) 21:46, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Reign

Could someone explain this to me, then maybe clarify it on the page? Ramesses had fourteen Sed festivals. The first one was supposedly held after he'd reigned thirty years, and further festivals were held every three years. If you do the math, that makes a reign of sixty-nine years. But it was sixty-six years, according to the page. What gives? --ShorinBJ (talk) 07:34, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

@ShorinBJ: The text in the Sed festival section says he celebrated 13 or 14 sed festivals, and 13 would be consistent with a reign of 66 or 67 years. The source that sentence cites—though I'm not sure how reliable it is—says "Ramses II (19th Dynasty)—who reigned for 67 years—celebrated 13 or 14 festivals, as he often left 2 instead of 3 years between his Heb Seds." A. Parrot (talk) 23:21, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

@A. Parrot: Oh. Well, the opening section just says there were fourteen Sed festivals and he reigned sixty-six years. --ShorinBJ (talk) 00:33, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

@ShorinBJ: I've changed the lead to say "thirteen or fourteen". Thanks for pointing this out. A. Parrot (talk) 04:03, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Ramesses II mummy in profile (colored picture).jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:21, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Rameses, Ramesses, Ramses

It would be useful to explain in the article somewhere why Ramesses is preferred to Ramses, the more usual English form. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 15:08, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

is it? do you have a reference for that? Irtapil (talk) 13:06, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

A Pharaoh with a Passport (Or, 13 Years without a Reliable Source)

Summary

For 13 years, this article has claimed that Ramesses' mummy was issued a passport. At various times, the claim has been tagged with Template:Verify source, Template:Failed verification, and Template:Unreliable source?. Because the claim is very unlikely to be true, and there's no reliable source, I've removed the following text from the article:

Ramesses II was issued an Egyptian passport that listed his occupation as "King (deceased)".<ref>{{cite web|url= http:// www.ancient-origins.net/history-famous-people/mummy-passport-0010944|title=Mummy of Pharaoh Ramesses II Issued a Passport to Travel to France|website=Ancient Origins|date=3 November 2018|accessdate=19 September 2019}}</ref>{{Unreliable source?|date=October 2019}}

Relevant policies

WP:VERIFY states

All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material. Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed.

WP:RELIABLE states

Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.

Relevant history

On 2006-11-08, user ThutmoseIII added the following text to the Mummy section:

In 1974, Cairo Museum Egyptologists noticed that the mummy's condition was getting worse rapidly. They decided to fly Rameses II mummy to Paris for examination. Ramses II was issued an Egyptian passport that listed his occupation as "King (deceased).Once in Paris, Ramses mummy was diagnosed and treated for a fungal infection. During the examination, scientific analysis revealed battle wounds and old fractures, as well as the pharaoh's arthritis and poor circulation.

Ever since, this "mummy with a passport!" factoid has been showing up across the Internet in "Did you know..."-type articles and places like todayilearned on Reddit.

The problem is, it doesn't appear to be true. In 13 years, no one's ever been able to find a single reliable source for it. The fact that the mummy went to France in 1976, not 1974, makes me doubt the original editor's reliability, or his source's reliability. I also spent several hours looking at the contemporaneous news stories, and they don't mention anything about a passport -- and that's the type of fun fact that newspapers love to feature.

On 2008-05-15, User:Markh added some cites:

In 1974, Egyptologists visiting his tomb noticed that the mummy's condition was rapidly deteriorating. They decided to fly Ramesses II's mummy to Paris for examination.^[1] Ramesses II was issued an Egyptian passport that listed his occupation as "King (deceased)." The mummy was received at a Paris airport with the full military honours befitting a king.^[2]

The 2nd citation's link (working version) is paywalled, but does provide info about the mummy's France trip. The 1st citation is mostly useless -- it presents information about Ramesses' life, but only contains 1 throwaway line about his mummy ("Ramesses has gained a multimedia afterlife: his mummy is flown from Cairo to Paris to be exhibited and re-autopsied...").

On 2010-01-28, User:ליאור added a "verification needed" tag, noting that "[t]his strange assertion does not appear in the provided sources."

On 2010-07-22, the response from User:Doradus was to add a cite to a National Geographic Channel page about "Engineering Egypt". The page doesn't display correctly, even on the Internet Archive snapshot, but if you View Source you'll see that they simply copy-pasted the whole "In 1974, Cairo Museum Egyptologists..." paragraph from Wikipedia -- an instance of circular reporting.

On 2019-03-04, User:Susmuffin added a "Not in citation given" tag to the passport cite, noting "I am having trouble finding a reliable source for the passport." (From looking at Internet Archive snapshots, the NatGeo Channel page stopped working prior to 2012.)

On 2019-09-19, User:UniSail2 replaced the NatGeo cite with a cite to a [www.ancient-origins.net/history-famous-people/mummy-passport-0010944 page] ("Mummy of Pharaoh Ramesses II Issued a Passport to Travel to France") on the "Ancient Origins" website. This page helpfully displays a faked image of an Egyptian passport bearing a photo of Ramesses' mummy. At the bottom of the page, it links to its sources, such as Ripley's Believe It or Not!. (For those not in the know, Ancient Origins [www.ancient-origins.net/about-us describes itself] as "the only Pop Archaeology site combining scientific research with out-of-the-box perspectives," publishing stories such as [www.ancient-origins.net/unexplained-phenomena/bigfoot-real-emerging-scientific-evidence-005737 "Is Bigfoot Real? Emerging Scientific Evidence"].)

On 2019-10-30, User:Jeroen N added an "Unreliable source?" tag to the claim. His edit summary stated

requesting reliable source for the statement that the mummy was issued a passport as this seems highly unlikely (ancient-origins.net does not appear to be a reliable source, and the sources it cites are either unreliable – one is a Wikipedia mirror – or do not mention this 'fact')

Flamerule (talk) 06:19, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Huh. Disappointing that National Geographic isn't reliable. --Doradus (talk) 21:23, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

well the only Nat Geo article i can find supports it with a link to the history channel, makers of Ancient Aliens and similar nonsense. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/features/weird-passports-history/ Irtapil (talk) 13:14, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Ancient-origins.net has added some references since I tagged the claim, including to the NatGeo article and Ripley's. There's some serious citogenesis going on, so be on the lookout for that (the claim appeared on the front page of Reddit, again, yesterday, so people might try to add it once more). Jeroen N (talk) 09:54, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 May 2020

Because the top cornerstone of the North Tower of the Ramesseum in Thebes says: "the town which the King plundered in Year 8 - Shalem"

In the "seventh" year of his reign should be changed to "eighth"

Ramesses, "attacked" Jerusalem should be changed to "plundered."

Also because the South Wall at Abu Simbel with the mural of the fortress of the "rebels on top of the hills" giving up, no weapons, surrendering. Rameses did not "attack," "destroy," he plundered Jerusalem and didn't destroy the rebels who surrendered. 99.253.155.191 (talk) 14:09, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Victor Schmidt (talk) 17:22, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

a ginger 90 year old?

Do the cited references actually support him having naturally red hair? one is behind a paywall and the other is in French. He was 90 when he died and i've not heard of any evidence from the body contradicting this. His hair would be white. Any red pigment would be from plants or minerals added during embalming, or during life as some kind of ancient Egyptian henna. Genetic evidence might tell you? but the phenotype of a 90 year old human's hair is always white? Irtapil (talk) 13:37, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

@Irtapil: good question but redheads don't get white hair as they get older, or at least the white hair that others get. This[3] says "Red hair simply fades with age, covering a whole spectrum of copper and rosy-blonde colours until it reaches a silvery-white.". At 77 mine is nowhere near white. But Ramesses hair wasn't red when he died in any case.[4] And I don't know if there is any skin colour that can't have red hair. Doug Weller talk 15:36, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Red hair goes blonde instead of grey, yes. But on a 90 year old ginger must be artificial? they say they somehow worked out it was red when he was young, but i don't see how that's possible? you could check if he had the allele for it, but that doesn't sound like what they did? Irtapil (talk) 22:50, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

As far as i know only light skinned people have red hair? Some dark skinned people can have blonde hair or blue eyes, but i have never heard of dark skin and red hair? but i don't know what your point was there? Irtapil (talk) 22:50, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Again, it wasn't red at 90 - the source I linked to, a well known Egyptologist, says "Ramesses’ fine, silky, white hair had been stained yellow-red during the embalming process. However, modern scientific analysis of his hair-roots has confirmed that in his youth the long

19was indeed a natural red-head. As today, auburn hair was not particularly common in dynastic Egypt, and Ramesses must have appeared conspicuous amongst his dark-haired compatriots." The image of a report used as a source might help you.[5] My point is that some people use Ramesses red hair as evidence he was white. See this old study about red hair in Africans. Doug Weller talk 16:19, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Source for meaning of the name

The name is given an English translation, but there is no source for the meaning. For those not fluent in Ancient Egyptian, a source should be added, preferably one which specifies what means what in the name. Kokoshneta (talk) 12:37, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

A link to the "Sea Peoples" should be added

Ramesses II was the first Pharaoh to face the Sea Peoples, who are as yet not fully defined. They caused mayhem for Egypt for about a hundred years.

WIKI has a very good page on them, and I think if a way could be found to include the link in the excellent paragraph in Section 1.1 titled: Battle against Sherden sea pirates it would be good for the reader.

I make bold to suggest that the opening sentence might be rearranged like this:

"In his second year, Ramesses II became the first Pharaoh to face the Sea Peoples, decisively defeating the Sherden sea pirates who were wreaking havoc along Egypt's Mediterranean coast by attacking cargo-laden vessels travelling the sea routes to Egypt."

(The tense needs to be changed on "defeat", so I highlighted it here.)

I understand that the link to the Sherden sea pirates will eventually lead to the Sea Peoples via another link, but the Sea Peoples are the core, and I feel should be given direct mention up-front.

Excellent article, my small suggestion is meant to improve an extremely well-written piece.

Sincerely,

James 203.150.179.186 (talk) 22:20, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Alternate dates

Article has several good sources that give the estimated date of Ramesses' reign as from 1279 to his death in 1213. But the intro also had the following buried in it. It's a level of detail that I feel is more than really belongs in the intro, so I omitted it from my recent edit. I also couldn't find any other part of the article where it seemed to fit. So I'm not sure how to treat it. But it seems useful, so I leave it here, such that others might make use of it for future edits.

"Bible could rewrite Egyptian history after mysterious event explained". 9News. Willoughby, New South Wales, Australia: Nine Digital Pty Ltd. 31 October 2017. Archived from the original on 31 October 2017. would mean that Ramesses the Great reigned from 1276-1210 BC, with a precision of plus or minus one year

Hope this helps. —DragonHawk (talk|hist) 22:13, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Tomb of Batah-M-Woya

Tomb of Batah-M-Woya, who was chief treasurer at the time of Ramses II, is rediscovered in 2021. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.64.138.123 (talk) 22:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 November 2021

In the infobox, add a variation of the Horus name: Kanakht mery Ra petpet khasut nebut kher tjebutef, meaning "Strong bull, beloved of Ra, who has trampled all the foreign countries under his sandals" 50.196.175.13 (talk) 23:14, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:36, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi IP, the IB is somewhat limited in what it can display and Ramesses II has no fewer than 40 different Horus names that are attested on his various monumental works. There are also a dozen or more Golden Horus and Two Ladies names for him as well. Those displayed presently are his original titulary adopted at coronation. Mr rnddude (talk) 21:25, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 January 2022

I need to Dd my picture of Pharoah Rameses II to this profile. Prince Pentwater (talk) 15:02, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:08, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Addition needed to portrayals of Ramesses II in Popular Culture

Ramesses II was played by actor Luke F Dejahang in two episodes of the 2005 BBC television docudrama serial, Egypt. Nevets sdoow (talk) 14:48, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 August 2022

Rameses II's body is now in the Museum of Egyptian Civilization, the article intro should be corrected to reflect that. Please see https://www.egypttoday.com/Article/4/100469/Egypt%E2%80%99s-Pharaohs-Golden-Parade-A-majestic-journey-that-history-will Drdonnayates (talk) 20:47, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

I have updated the lead section of the article accordingly. Thank you for pointing this out, Drdonnayates. A. Parrot (talk) 23:46, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Citation Failure

Regarding this paragraph: "Additional records tell us that he was forced to fight a Canaanite prince who was mortally wounded by an Egyptian archer, and whose army, subsequently, was routed. Ramesses carried off the princes of Canaan as live prisoners to Egypt. Ramesses then plundered the chiefs of the Asiatics in their own lands, returning every year to his headquarters at Riblah to exact tribute. In the fourth year of his reign, he captured the Hittite vassal state of the Amurru during his campaign in Syria.[25]"

I purchased the 1994 edition of the book in question and there is no such text on the page cited, or anywhere else in Grimal's History of Ancient Egypt. This claim needs a valid citation.Cadwallader (talk) 19:02, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I've removed this passage from the article. A. Parrot (talk) 00:41, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

I was hoping someone would help find a valid citation, not delete it. I have seen this same information in a couple of other articles online. I've just never been able to track down the source. Cadwallader (talk) 00:59, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Well, the last sentence is easily sourced: Jacobus Van Dijk (2003), Oxford History of Ancient Egypt , p. 289. However, it should be noted that Ramesses II lost both Qadesh and Amurru within the year and never regained control of either according to Dijk on pp. 289-290. No mention of Canaan here. There is a very brief mention in the entry on Ramesses II in the OEAE III (1999) by Kenneth Kitchen on p. 116 which says that he undertook a campaign up the coast of Canaan and Phoenicia in his fourth regnal year. Might be worth trying to get a hold of Pharaoh Triumphant, The Life and Times of Ramesses II by Kitchen (1982), seems a detailed source on this subject. This isn't my editing area at all really so I have scant sources to offer. Mr rnddude (talk) 01:31, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

I looked into the editing history and found the edit in which this text was added, way back in 2008. It looks like Grimal originally supported the claim about Amurru, but the rest was inserted before it. The editor who made the claim about the Canaanite prince seems to have had a tendency to make not-wholly-wrong but questionable edits (e.g., [6]), so I don't trust the claim.

Anyway, I've restored the claim about Amurru with the Grimal citation, though if it turns out that Grimal doesn't say that (I don't have that book and can't check) it can be replaced with one of the other citations that Mr rnddude mentions.

Ideally we'd overhaul the article to make sure it doesn't include other bits of accumulated cruft like this—that dubious addition stayed in place for thirteen years. But I simply don't have the detailed sources on Ramesses II that such an effort would require, nor the time to collect them. A. Parrot (talk) 02:14, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

The Canaanite details are hard to verify. They appear to derive from Immanuel Velikovsky on page 18 as mentioned below. However, the following passage does note that "Canaan was docilely his" which is clear from other sources as well. Pharaoh Triumphant, The Life and Times of Ramesses II by Kitchen (1982) page 51:

So in Year 4, possibly in the summer of 1275 B.C., Ramesses II set out for Syria. Canaan was docilely his, and he soon reached the coastland of southern Phoenicia, touching at Tyre and Byblos, firm Egyptian possessions. Further along the coast, he may at this time have taken Ir- qata by seige; the main part of Phoenicia was his. But from that convenient base-line he then struck inland and eastward through the mountains, to attack Amurru. --Guest2625 (talk) 13:02, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

@Cadwallader The material that was removed sources to Ages in Chaos II: Ramses II and His Time by Immanuel Velikovsky on page 18 . See also Archive.org copy. If the material and source is seen as relevant, it can be re-added to the article. --Guest2625 (talk) 02:27, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Immanuel Velikovsky is practically the definition of an unreliable, fringe source. A. Parrot (talk) 02:29, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

That is definitely not a reliable source. Mr rnddude (talk) 02:31, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

That's where the editor got the material from for that edit. I'll see if there is another source for this obelisk at Tenis mention. If the source is fringe, the material is then not relevant. --Guest2625 (talk) 02:43, 20 September 2022 (UTC)02:35, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Velikovsky and other modern writers have likely used as one of their base primary sources Ancient Records of Egypt:The nineteenth dynasty edited by James Henry Breasted. See page 125 and 174. However, this source only confirms "Ramesses carried off the princes of Retenu as live prisoners to Egypt". Perhaps, something else is confirmed, but it is a long read; and the chronology of the carrying off is not clear. There are references in Velikovsky that could be checked if really interested in the other two sentences, but the material does not seem that important, since it is clear from other sources that Canaan was under the control of Egypt during this period. --Guest2625 (talk) 13:46, 20 September 2022 (UTC)