Talk:Rainilaiarivony

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Rainilaiarivony/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Visionholder (talk · contribs) 19:30, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I am claiming this review. I will try to start it within the next few days. – VisionHolder « talk » 19:30, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Images

• The first image on the page, File:Rainilaiarivony.jpg claims to be in the public domain due to age, but it does not list an artist, an original printed source, or original copyright. It only gives a website that hosts basic info about Rainilaiarivony.

• Removed, until I can find a source for it Lemurbaby (talk) 20:21, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• Likewise, File:Rainivoninahitriniony Prime Minister of Madagascar.jpg is missing source information.

• Removed, until I can figure out where I pulled this from Lemurbaby (talk) 20:21, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• File:KingOfMadagascar.jpg could also use better source information. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised is some free online digital libraries have a higher-resolution copy of the photo.

• Removed, until I can find another source for it Lemurbaby (talk) 20:21, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• File:Portrait of Prime Minister Rainilaiarivony of Madagascar.jpg lists a "Date" of "9 October 2011"... it should be the date the photo was taken, which according to the source should read "[circa] 1895".

• Fixed Lemurbaby (talk) 20:21, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• Where did you get the author information? The sources says "unknown". – VisionHolder « talk » 17:21, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

• Found it here. I've just added this link to the author name on the photo. Lemurbaby (talk) 22:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

• File:Rainilaiarivony Prime Minister of Madagascar exile Algeria.jpg – I think the source on this one should be a full citation. Also, can the artist's name not be read from his signature at the bottom? If not, it should be fine...

• Done Lemurbaby (talk) 20:21, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• File:Rainilaiarivony funeral PS.jpg – The source points to the wrong picture, and once again the date needs to reflect the date the picture was taken (based on what the source says).

• Fixed Lemurbaby (talk) 20:21, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks for catching all this - I forgot to check the sources of the photos I didn't upload myself. I'll have a look later today. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:48, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

References

• I'm not sure about the reliability of the web references, #11 and #14. The others look okay, though.

• Okay, I can replace those (although I'm convinced the site is fine - he's pulling from the Tantara, the standard for 19th century Merina history, but I can just pull from that directly myself). Lemurbaby (talk) 04:48, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• Actually, I realize I failed to copy the genealogy pages of the Tantara where this information is contained... Dang. I guess I'll remove it. Lemurbaby (talk) 16:57, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• For the segment "and went on to wed another high-ranking official, Rainijohary", you only deleted the reference. Does the reference that follows cover this information? – VisionHolder « talk » 17:21, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

• Good catch, provided a ref now. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:59, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I will try to review the prose either tonight or tomorrow. Sorry for the delays. – VisionHolder « talk » 22:40, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Review

• "On 14 August, the day of the queen's death, Rainilaiarivony—now 33 years of age—possessed forethought and self-possession that would enable him to prevent needless loss of life." Can you re-word this to make it more easily understood? Alternatively, you may be able to drop the last half and join it to the next sentence.

• Reworded Lemurbaby (talk) 17:24, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• Hmmm... I was actually wanting to see "possessed forethought and self-possession" reworded or dropped... As it reads, it almost sounds like he developed those traits the day the queen died. – VisionHolder « talk » 17:21, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

• Modified further - let me know if this needs more tweaking. Lemurbaby (talk) 22:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

• No page (or even red-link) for Rainitsimbazafy?

• No, no page yet... so since WP policy discourages red-linking people, I suppose we need to leave it as is. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:48, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• Eh... I do it all the time. At the very least, you could create a stub with one or two verifiable sources to give a very general overview. – VisionHolder « talk » 05:24, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• All right, done. Lemurbaby (talk) 16:57, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• The page numbers for the Fage, Flint & Oliver (1986) ref don't seem to match up with the online version you link to. Instead, those pages are about Africa, not Madagascar. Are the pages just wrong, or do you have the wrong edition?

• Rather than re-typing the citation for the Cambridge History of Africa, I had copied it from another article I wrote - except the other article used the preceding volume (vol. 5), and this information came from vol. 6. I've fixed it now. Lemurbaby (talk) 17:55, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• Looking at the other references from the same book, I have found other referencing problems. Although the core material is on the correct page (as cited), some of the information is not in the source. For example, the sentences that precede "When Jean Laborde died in 1878..." are only partially discussed by the source for that large block of text. It mentions Egypt and the missionaries, but not the military defeat and other fine details. – VisionHolder « talk » 17:21, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

• Fixed, I think - I left off one citation but didn't see problems with the others in general. Lemurbaby (talk) 22:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

• "Rainilairivony was described by a contemporary as a "Great orator among a nation of orators"[1] and was widely respected by Malagasy and foreigners alike." – These last two sentences of the lead are not found (from what I can tell/remember) in the body of the article. Also, the last bit is unreferenced. – VisionHolder « talk » 17:21, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

  Yes the orator quote isn't found elsewhere. I thought it worked best there. Do I have to move it elsewhere to get all the citations out of the lead? I've also reworded that last sentence to better reflect what's contained in the article. Let me know if you think it needs to change further. Lemurbaby (talk) 22:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

  The changes are perfect. The lead is only supposed to be a summary. Nothing should be there that isn't already mentioned and cited in the body. For that reason, the lead should not require citations... except in extreme cases where the material is highly controversial. I have never had a good reason to use a citation in the lead... and you can't get much more controversial than lemur taxonomy! – VisionHolder « talk » 05:05, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Otherwise, I can't really check the other references, but I'll WP:AGF. Other than that, the article is excellent. – VisionHolder « talk » 19:21, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks for the vote of confidence. I had to get the main resource for this article from the Library of Congress. Not many copies of this book in the States. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:48, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

query

• Hi, as a person not familiar with the history of Madagascar, I'm wondering how the Prime Minister was chosen. It sort of sounds like the queen makes the selection, but it never actually says that. Plus if Rainilaiarivony had to work in conjunction with the queen to get rid of his brother, how does this work? MathewTownsend (talk) 15:59, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• Originally the monarch had absolute power and selected his or her advisers and ministers, but after the coup led by Rainivoninahitriniony (Rainilaiarivony's brother, discussed in the article) the power was "shared" between the monarch and prime minister. But the successful coup leaders (who strangled the last king) made the offer to the former king's wife to become the sovereign queen if she would agree to the power share. So really the prime minister held the reigns - he offered the power to her, and she knew they could strangle her too if they weren't happy with her. So from that point forward the Prime Minister and his council effectively selected the queen, always from among the qualified candidates (i.e. those of royal descendence). Lemurbaby (talk) 17:55, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• ok, thanks! Sounds like an interesting system. MathewTownsend (talk) 22:32, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Closing note: Another great article. Only one small fix needed (for a FAC run), from what I can tell: the citations need to standardize on whether you ware going to use the full first name or just initials. Other than that, good job! – VisionHolder « talk » 23:44, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Where did he die?

The infobox states.. "17 July 1896 (aged 68) Algiers, Algeria"

However - and I do love when I can be pedantic about infinitesimal stuff like this - wasn't Algeria considered an integral part of France at the time? Shouldn't this read, "Algiers, France (now Algeria)"? I've asked the same question on Talk:French Algeria. --Golbez (talk) 21:41, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

• Although Algeria was seen as something like an extension of its own territory, I'm unclear to what extent the policy there was markedly different from its policy in its other colonies. I haven't found any clear distinction between Algeria and other colonies of France in articles on WP. It seems important to distinguish metropolitan France from territories under its control, like Algeria or Madagascar. The best option here seems to be linking it to French Algeria instead of just Algeria. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Lemurbaby (talk) 03:50, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

It was apparently very different; Algeria was apparently considered as integral a part of France as Alaska is a part of the United States. Our article on the Third Republic colors it as being France, rather than a colony or possession or territory. --Golbez (talk) 12:27, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

who promoted him?

"was promoted to Commander-in-Chief of the army upon the death of the queen in 1861." Who promoted him? (Sorry to ask again, but I don't get who's in charge.) MathewTownsend (talk) 21:52, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

I've just added that he was promoted by King Radama. Technically the ultimate authority always rested with the sovereigns (especially up through the reign of Radama II), but beginning with Queen Rasoherina the Prime Minister in reality wielded the bulk of the powers and the sovereign just gave a stamp of approval (almost never denied) as the queens' role became largely ceremonial. Lemurbaby (talk) 03:22, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Constitutional ?

"He also influenced the transformation of the kingdom's government from an absolute monarchy to a constitutional one in which power was shared between the sovereign and the Prime Minister."

A constitutional monarchy? What the! A system in which the prime minister is a hereditary dictator, gets away with strangling the king, and then forcing three puppet queens to marry him? Ewwww. Was there actually a "constitution" authorising all of this? Even an eighteenth century Japanese would challenge the constitutionality of this pervert's arrangements.Eregli bob (talk) 02:45, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Glad you stopped by to read the article, although you might have a more accurate understanding if you read it again. Lemurbaby (talk) 16:03, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

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