Talk:Que Sera, Sera (Whatever Will Be, Will Be)/Archives/2019

Habanera by Emmanuel Chabrier

The melody is clearly taken from Chabrier's Habanera. The article should mention that.Abenr (talk) 20:34, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Is this your original research, or do you have reliable sources that substantiate it? --rogerd (talk) 20:44, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

I listened to the (1885) "Habanera" online, and I heard the nine-note sequence that you're referring to, Abenr. They correspond to "Will I be pretty, will I be rich?" In my opinion it doesn't take a reliable source to hear it. However, that's not the entire melody. I don't know how many notes a copyright court requires for a plagiarism decision. Songwriters may consciously steal lines from other songs, or they may unconsciously mimic lines from a song they heard in the past. It probably should be mentioned, but the similarity of one passage is not the same as "The melody is clearly taken from". It needs to be worded more tentatively than this. We don't know what Livingston & Evans's had in mind, nor what their music-listening experience was. By the way, the great "Stairway to Heaven" lawsuit is still pending, according to Wikipedia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stairway_to_Heaven#cite_ref-21>. Kotabatubara (talk) 15:17, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, but my point is that if @Abenr: and you, @Kotabatubara: are the only ones talking about it, then it is OR. If the similarity is as obvious as you both say, there MUST have been something published in the past stating so, and then, and only then, when you cite it, can you include it here. --rogerd (talk) 18:03, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 11 June 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved – general concensus that the proposal is not the true title and/or not supported by sources. (non-admin closure) Dicklyon (talk) 03:17, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

---

Que Sera, Sera (Whatever Will Be, Will Be) → Que Será, Será (Whatever Will Be, Will Be) – The accents are part of the actual name of the song, and should be included in the title, with the non-accented version redirecting here. bd2412 T 12:54, 11 June 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. — Newslinger talk 03:21, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

• Doubtful, considering that "será" does have an accent in Spanish but "The saying is always in an English-speaking context and has no history in Spain, Italy, or France, and in fact is ungrammatical in all three Romance languages" and "[Its title] is composed of Spanish or Italian words superimposed on English syntax. It was evidently formed by a word-for-word mistranslation of English 'What will be will be'", it does not necessarily mean accents are meant to be there. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 21:31, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

• Unrelated to this RM, but shouldn't Que Sera, Sera be redirecting here? It is the literal origin of that phrase and no other relevant use is mentioned at Que sera. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 21:36, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

• • I will admit, use in the real world tends towards the accentless, but here is album cover with the accents. Sadly, they are not on Jay Livingston's grave marker. I would agree with the proposed retargting of the redirect. bd2412 T 21:38, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
• Comment Shouldn't that be Qué Será, Será? I.e., accent on the e of Que? That is the way it is sung. Alaney2k (talk) 01:55, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
• Move to Qué Será, Será. Given the presence of the accents on the record cover I would say yes, let's accent it (but including the "Qué", which is also accented). Other than that, I agree with Tbhotch that it is the prmary topic for "Qué Será, Será", and per MOS:SUBTITLE, we shouldn't include "Whatever Will Be, Will Be" as it is routinely not included in the name (such as on the aforementioned album cover). THanks  — Amakuru (talk) 11:58, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
  • The situation is surprisingly complicated, in that sometimes "Que Sera Sera" is treated as the subtitle rather than the main title. In some cases, the title is given as just "Whatever Will Be, Will Be". Example. For this reason, I'd be inclined to keep the full title. But I agree Que Sera, Sera should be a primary redirect, and possibly so should Whatever Will Be, Will Be. Colin M (talk) 01:20, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

• Interesting that the Spanish Wikipedia article is called "Que Sera, Sera (Whatever Will Be, Will Be)". (The actual Spanish title would be "Que será, será" with lowercase s's.) I oppose removal of the subtitle. As this image of the original single shows, the song was first released as "Whatever Will Be, Will Be (Que Sera, Sera)". —  AjaxSmack  14:55, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose The WP:OFFICIALNAME is not clear, but if anything the version without accents seems to have a stronger case. BD2412 linked above an album cover that renders the title as "Qué Será, Será". But a google image search for "que sera, sera album cover" (with or without accents), turns up a variety of covers, mostly Doris Day, but from a variety of eras. None of the covers on the first page of results uses any accents. example. This book of sheet music referenced in the article (which I believe is official), uses no accents. I'm inclined to think the no-accents version also wins under WP:COMMONNAME. I searched for the title on nytimes.com (the search engine seems to ignore accents, so searching "Qué Será, Será" and "Que Sera, Sera" gave the same results), and checked the first 10 articles that came up. 3 used accents (only ever on "Será", not "Qué"), 7 used no accents. Colin M (talk) 01:10, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Cleared out examples/trivia

I just made a pretty significant edit which removed a lot of content that fell somewhere between WP:EXAMPLEFARM, WP:TRIVIA, and WP:POPCULTURE, namely three embedded lists:

• A list of uses of the song in TV shows, movies, and commercials.
• A list of English-language covers
• A list of non-English versions and recordings/performances thereof

I replaced them with some prose which integrates what I thought were the elements of the above lists which were most significant to the topic. Because it still bums me out to delete a bunch of information which is mostly true and verifiable, here's the latest version before the overhaul.

I think most of the deleted content just doesn't have a place in this article. Some of it is "connective trivia" which is not significant to this topic (the song), but is probably worthy of note in the context of another topic (e.g. Take The Lead, Operation Deep Freeze, Renata Bogdańska). Some of it is probably not worth noting in any Wikipedia article (e.g. the fact that this song was used in a 2001 commercial for Shoppers Drug Mart).

But there might be some nuggets among the deleted items that would actually be worthy of restoring in some form if we could find more context and better sourcing (the main one that comes to mind is the use of the song as a chant among sports fans). And even if they don't fall within the purview of this article per wiki policies, they might provide some useful starting points for editors working on this article. Colin M (talk) 18:40, 8 July 2019 (UTC)