Talk:Puyi/Archive 1

Archive 1

Requested moves

Old article name

• Henry Pu Yi

Requested move (to Xuantong Emperor)

• I propose that we move this to Xuantong Emperor of China for consistency. If we want to keep the English, then it's Henry Puyi, not Henry Pu Yi. --Jiang 11:18, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

• "Henry" was never part of the name of the last emperor of China. I really don't see why it is stated here, what's more in bold print ! I think we are just perpetuating cultural cliches and prejudice here. "Henry" was merely the name that the young emperor used when he was addressed by his British lecturer, who arguably could not pronounce Chinese words. And by the way, the last emperor had MANY Chinese lecturers and teachers, not just a British teacher as is often assumed wrongly in the ethnocentric West. And these Chinese masters certainly did not call him "Henry"! Later in his life, when he was expelled from the Imperial Palace and became a commoner, he may have used the name "Henry" occasionaly in dealing with westerners, as this was easier than Chinese names, and seemed more "modern" (the Chinese elites were undergoing a strong cultural identity crisis back in those days). However it was never his official name, neither was it the name under which he was or is still known in China. I am in favor of deleting "Henry", and merely mentioning the occasional use of the name in the middle of the article. Hardouin 20:19, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• The Emperor of course had many other tutors. His closest one was the eunuch Chen Pao-shen. His English name, as has been mentioned, was unofficial. He was interested in learning English and chose the name 'Henry' from a list of British monarchs. The other members of his family did the same. However, I would also add that, in all fairness, Reginald Johnston could speak Chinese very well, in fact the Emperor said it was often easier to understand Johnston than some others as he did not speak with a regional accent. I agree though that the name should not be emphasized. It would be best to stick with Aisin-Gioro Pu-Yi, Xuantong or his reigning name in Manchukuo, "Kang Teh". --Nguyen Van Tuan

• If by "British teacher" you mean the Scot, Reginald Johnston, I don't think you should underestimate his influence on Puyi in his teen years or lump him in with all of Puyi's other teachers... according to Edward Behr's biography on the last emperor, Puyi wrote that when his formal Western studies had ended (with marriage), "Johnston had become a major part of my soul". Why is he not mentioned at least in passing here? P. Moore 02:30, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• A Scots teacher is also a "British teacher" - as I beleive a Scot is also British, as much as the English or the Welsh. So yes I would take it that Reginald Johnson is meant here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kunchan (talk • contribs) 09:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

• I think that, in respect to the Emperor, who had a rather unhappy life in that he was constantly being manipulated by one person or another, the article on him should be titled 'Xuantong Emperor', as this is the title he had always wanted back once the Republic was established, and felt that he should have been restored to when he was made Emperor of Manchukuo. Furthermore, as this article is about the Emperor, we should name it after how he would have called himself, and while he had many names and forms of address, I feel that this is the one he preferred as it was a massive part of his life and one that he could never forget and consistently aspired to. It is unfair, in my opinion, to think about naming an article after someone in a way that is for our convenience, and that he would never have used, and much more preferable to name the article in a way he would have been able to identify with, and it would definately give the article a more legitimate feel if it was so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.242.218 (talk) 09:31, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Requested move (to Puyi)

I suggest this article be re-titled Puyi, as that is the name by which he is most widely known in China as well as in the west. A lot less people know him by Xuantong Emperor, as compared to Puyi. We never bothered to name Yuan Shikai the "Hongxian Emperor". Colipon+(T) 22:21, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I moved the page, but now I agree. It should not be at "Henry Puyi", which was its fmr location. Let's move it to Puyi.--Jiang 00:03, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Requested move (to Pu Yi)

Hottentot (talk · contribs) put this up at WP:RM to be moved to Pu Yi. Since this has been moved in the past I'm wondering what people think of this new suggestion? Talrias (t | e | c) 02:17, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

• I oppose. I don't see a reason. Hanyu pinyin does not contain spaces between given names. Both Pu and Yi are given names. For example, it is Jiang Zemin, not Jiang Ze Min. --Jiang 07:56, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
• Support, Wade-Giles romanization is most common for older things, such as the last emperor. WG is also the most common romanization in the West, not Pinyin. It's Mao Tse Tung, not Mao Zedong 132.205.45.110 23:48, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
  • COMMENT *all* Chinese names should have both Pinyin and Wade-Giles romanizations prominently displayed in the article page. And any figure from south-east China should also have Yale romanization of the Cantonese pronounciation. (or perhaps just apply it to all Chinese named things) (This is the romanization used in HK for Cantonese). And the Nanjing romanization method should also probably appear on all such articles. 132.205.45.110 23:52, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
  • COMMENT The Time magazine cover even says Henry Pu Yi, showing the preferred romanization for most documents written in English about him is Pu Yi. 132.205.45.110 00:09, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
    • Response: "Henry" is usually not used. Time is not using proper convention used in historical literature. --Jiang 15:43, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
  • COMMENT we should not support the tyranny of pinyin in revisionist naming of historical things.
  • Response: That is incorrect. Wade-Giles Romanization is Pu-i, not "Pu Yi". "Pu Yi" is bastardized pinyin. --Jiang 15:43, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
    • Is this actually true? It seems to me that he was called Pu Yi long before there actually was a Pinyin to bastardize. john k 05:32, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Response: lol. Furthermore, all other Chinese sovereigns in history happens to be named with standardized Pinyin. To modify this last Emperor's form of naming seems unecessary. Colipon+(T)
    • If we were to use other emperor articles as a model, he should be at Xuantong Emperor, not Puyi. john k 05:31, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
    • No, I'm saying it should be kept consistent in terms of pinyin, keep in mind he abdicated, ending the the long era of Imperial China. Other than that, your argument falls on four points: first of all, Puyi is seldom known by that Reign Title anywhere in the world; second, he had several other Reign titles, and can technically be named the "Kangde Emperor of Manchuria"; third, Emperors like Li Zicheng (note pinyin) was deposed and therefore will not be named according to his reign title; fourth, Nurhaci and Hong Taiji, in accordance with other Emperors, would have to be renamed Tianming and Tiancong/Chongde Emperors.

• SUPPORT Pu Yi is how he is most known. The Puyi spelling only seems to be used on Wikipedia. Pu Yi is much more widely known than Puyi. --Hottentot
  • evidence? --Jiang 15:43, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
• I OPPOSE. I support Jiang. Although Puyi only turns out about half the results as "Pu Yi" (in quotations) on Google, more and more modern sources use the romanization "Puyi", especially the sources that actually specialize in Chinese history. It is reasonable to expect that "Puyi" will become the most common usage in the next ten or twenty years. --Colipon+(T) 22:18, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. violet/riga (t) 19:26, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Content Requests

NPOV

Note: its hard to get an NPOV opinon on Pu Yi because of his collaberation with the japanese during the second world war.

Pinyin

Can we get some pinyin on this page?

Title

What was Puyi's full title as Emperor of China?

Qing Imperial House

There are several references in the article to the Qing Imperial House having, in 2004, attributed posthumous titles to several people associated with Pu Yi. I am interested in this subject and wonder whether an official remnant of the former imperial house still exists somewhere "in exile" or in some other way, and what evidence there might be for the titles having been so granted in 2004. Would love to see more about this, and if possible the article Qing Imperial House to actually be created. --Ishel99 05:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

From what I've read on this... there is a Qing heir in pretence (pretension? whatever is the word). You can find it by following the box at the bottom of the article. However, I've also read (in a PRC-based newspaper) that the actualy imperial family (i.e. Puyi's brother/nephews) don't approve of these "titles" which are being bestowed by a group of more distant relatives who are calling themselves the "Qing Imperial House". That's all just hearsay, of course. --Sumple (Talk) 11:39, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Name confusion

The article begins by calling him "Puyi". Then it says the communists called him "Aixinjueluo Puyi". Then it suddenly calls him "Xuantong" with no explanation. Then we get a section headed 'Name', which begins "In English, he is known more simply as Puyi" but that this name contravenes Chinese tradition. However, it does not explain what the correct name would be. What's going on here? Can someone sort it out? Cop 663 14:49, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Basically his personal name is Puyi, while his imperial name was the Xuantong Emperor. English tends to use emperors' personal names even where that might be considered impolite or offensive locally, e.g. we also call the Showa Emperor of Japan by his personal name, Hirohito. In this particular case it's further complicated by the fact that many Chinese themselves both historically and presently called this particular person Puyi rather than the Xuantong Emperor, perhaps to emphasize the abolition of the empire. --Delirium (talk) 11:10, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Confusing information about wives

In the article in its current reading it can be understood that he had two or five wives. Also, one of his wives is as also stated a concubine. Also, it's stated that he had two wives simultaneously. Someone with knowledge about his private life and the legal definition of marriage in China during his life should rewrite this section so that it will be clear.--Smallchanges 18:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Missing Years

There is an entire section missing from the article. What was he doing between 1924 and 1932? Macguba 09:39, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Paragraphs Re: Tibet

Why the two odd paragraphs about Tibetan leadership (third and last paragraphs of the biography section)? Frankly, I think these are irrelevant to the article. I would suggest they be deleted, but didn't want to unilaterally do something in case someone can make a real good explanation for their presence. I.e., how do they contribute to the biography of Puyi as an individual, rather than as aspects of the disintegration of the empire? If we were to include all aspects of the territorial disintegration of the Qing empire's (and the later Republican state's) sovereignty, this article would be 4 times as long.

68.190.118.77 (talk) 03:16, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I have the same thought. THe third, fourth and last paragraphs under Biography Emperor of China (1908–1912) are totally irrelevant to this article. In fact, they distract. They make the article less professional as if it were a work of cut and paste. I think they should be removed and moved to one about the 13th Dalai Lama if desired. Can the original contributor please take them out? Cjchua (talk) 02:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)Cjchua

I've noted the same thing and agree that those 3 paragraphs should be removed as they are not directly related to Puyi. Repetition (talk) 16:06, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Li Shuxian profession

The article variously characterizes Li Shuxian as a "hospital janitor" and a "nurse." Her brief wiki¹ says she was a "former nurse."

Which is it?

¹ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Shuxian

He flattered Japanese imperial family? Who says?

The piece of info in the Manchukuo section, that he flattered the Japanese imperial family during a visit to Tokyo and thanked Hirohito for "allowing" clear skies -- what's the source on that? Thanks. --Prince andre (talk) 16:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

11 or 12 days?

In the first paragraph, it claims he was reigning 12 days, yet the info box says 11 days.  _{Guy M | Talk}  13:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Puyi, Yuan Shikai, and last emperor of China

I moved the following unsigned inline commentary from the main article page. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:07, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

ORIGINAL TEXT:"However, Yuan Shikai, the first President of the Republic of China later claimed the title of "Emperor of China"." / EXPLANATION OF MY DELETION (or, technically, HIDING IT): Puyi would be the last emperor of China whether or not Yuan Shikai claimed the title in 1916. The dethroned Manchu monarch was again recognized as emperor for a short period in 1917 after Yuan's abdication and death, wasn't he? So what's the relevance of this caveat here?

References

City names

It is a serious error in these articles to use modern names for the cities and towns in the periods covered in these articles as all references, atlases and maps of the time show the correct names, not those adopted by the communists. 86.137.120.79 (talk) 11:40, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Useful insight into his later life http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-17455067 Legacypac (talk) 10:18, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Consolidating Reference Citations

I've noticed that the list of citations is ridiculously extensive, with more than a dozen references from the same source. Is anyone up to the task of consolidating the Reference Citations, so it would read similar to the following instead of the huge list as presently displayed? Much appreciated.
Christopher, Salem, OR (talk) 20:56, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Suggested example of post-consolidation:

131. ^^abcd Behr 1987 p 202, 203-204, p 244

Hmm. It seems there's some automatic function of Wikipedia that I hadn't expected to be in operation here on the Talk page. That above example was intended to be text only for demonstration purposes. I had not expected it to produce cite_ref and Special:Book Sources at the bottom of this post. I apologize. Does anyone know how to turn that off so the above example won't activate the cite_ref on the Talk page?
Christopher, Salem, OR (talk) 21:06, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Wrap it in <nowiki> tags? DonIago (talk) 13:51, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the suggestion, DonIago. Unfortunately, <nowiki> doesn't seem to work at removing that citation appended to the bottom of this Talk page. Following that unsuccess, I took another look at the Citation, and it dawned on me that I didn't add it - PalaceGuard008 did when they moved an Article edit to the Talk page § Puyi, Yuan Shikai, and last emperor of China. Thanks for the help anyway.

Christopher, Salem, OR (talk) 15:46, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

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Redirect

Shouldn't "Kāngdé" be a redirect that leads to this page? (66.215.84.193 (talk) 18:53, 15 April 2018 (UTC))

Needs major overhaul

This article has so many problems that I don't even know where to start so im just going to give a general summary. Details conflict with each other constantly, the article relies on two sources mainly, the POV is all over the place and certainly not neutral, and is full of extraneous and unnecessary details. SpacePrius (talk) 00:28, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Rewrite May 2019

The article is written as an essay or sprawling ramble. I may come back to it but if anyone better knows Puyi please consider a rewrite. Diaozhadelaowai (talk) 07:53, 21 May 2019 (UTC)