Talk:Pug/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

T-shirt image

The dog on the T-Shirt (last picture on page) is clearly not pug, but most probably Boston Terrier or French Buldog. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.201.48.208 (talk) 13:54, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Removed the image. Miyagawa (talk) 18:24, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Bull mastiff

Just reverted a change that stated that bull mastiffs and pugs are related. As far as I can tell the bull mastiff descend from the old english bulldog and the english mastiff and have nothing to do with the pug. Miyagawa (talk) 17:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

granulomatous vs. necrotizing meningoencephalitis

I changed the text a small bit. I changed granulomatous meningoencephalitis (GME) to necrotizing meningoencephalitis (NME). Although Pug dogs can be diagnosed with GME, the most common neurological disorder of Pug dogs is NME. Pug dog encephalitis (PDE) is the original name for what is now known as NME. Vetcontributor (talk) 21:07, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, always good to have an expert on board! Miyagawa (talk) 09:05, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

|Marie Antoinette!

MA had one of these dogs, it was taken from her as she entered French territory with the Comtesse de Noailles telling her that she "could have as many French dogs as she liked", however I think she had it returned to her later on. Is this not a legitimate source for the history section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.179.8.249 (talk) 23:06, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

• Well, it needs an actual source. Simply saying it makes it original research. Miyagawa (talk) 23:56, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

     * Well it's in Antonia Fraser's biography "Marie Antoinette"

Picture vote

There's been a bit of a long-duration edit war going on about a picture that is being displayed towards the top of the article. They are both pictures of black pug puppies. Please take a look at the two pictures below and indicate if you have a preference for one over the other. Thanks! -Scottywong| yak _ 23:24, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

• 
  Picture 1
• 
  Picture 2

No 2 anytime out of those two, but at that point in the article it would benefit from a different posture. Agathoclea (talk) 06:09, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Are you saying number two or that you like neither photo? Paris1127 (talk) 06:18, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• Picture 1, due to less glare. Both offer some idea of scale, and I think Agathoclea has a point about different posture. Also, be sure to remember that Wikipedia uses consensus, not voting...Paris1127 (talk) 06:18, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
• Picture 2 It shows an unobstructed view of the dog. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 06:24, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
• Picture 2 I believe it is a higher quality photo, more suitable for an encyclopedia. Picture 1 looks like something you'd find on someone's facebook page. -Scottywong| talk _ 13:25, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Coat and Color

"Fawn pugs and black pugs are similar in every way, except the color of their coats." - Would anyone be expecting otherwise? Irish Melkite (talk) 02:24, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 9 September 2012

Please put in after the third paragraph in the Common Conditions section.

Eye prolapse is a common problem among other brachycephalic breeds and can be caused by trauma to the head or neck, such as an injury or using a tight leash instead of a harness. While it can be fixed by returning the eye back to its socket by the owner, a visit to the vet is required to check for eye and eye socket injuries. If the prolapse happens on a regular basis, the pug might require surgery to save its eye or in a worst case scenario have the eye removed.

1. <http://www.fleetfiretimbers.com/FFT/Articles/Traumatic%20eye%20prolapse.htm/>. August 2007. Retrieved September 2012. 2. <http://animal.discovery.com/tv-shows/dogs-101/videos/pug.htm />. Retrieved September 2012. Aliceokie (talk) 20:52, 9 September 2012 (UTC)Aliceokie

Done, but please remember to not provide citations consisting of bare URLs. I fixed that for you. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:51, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Minor grammar edits

Under the heading "Health problems":

I suggest that the following: An investigative documentary carried out by the BBC found significant inbreeding between pedigree dogs, a study by Imperial College, London, shows that the 10,000 pugs in the UK are so inbred that their gene pool is the equivalent of only 50 individuals.[20]

(be divided into 2 sentences) into: An investigative documentary carried out by the BBC found significant inbreeding between pedigree dogs. A study by Imperial College, London, shows that the 10,000 pugs in the UK are so inbred that their gene pool is the equivalent of only 50 individuals.[20]

I also suggest to put this statement very last under the subheading "common conditions" after the sentence "Inbreeding is also a known cause for these problems.[29]" Ruthminlee (talk) 06:28, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Done - see this edit Begoon ^talk 01:36, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 23 November 2012

The following sentence: Celebrity pug owners include financial radio talk show host and best-selling author Dave Ramsey, comedienne Maria Bamford, broadcaster Jonathan Ross, actress Jessica Alba, actor Hugh Laurie, guitarist Jamie Jazz, fashion designer Valentino Garavani, footballer Zlatan Ibrahimović,[40] actor Gerard Butler,[41] actress Jenna Elfman, [42] musician Rob Zombie,[43] and musician Frank Iero.

Is too long so i want to suggest restructuring the sentence to shorten it a bit as such:

Celebrity pug owners include financial radio talk show host and best-selling author Dave Ramsey; comedian Maria Bamford; broadcaster Jonathan Ross; actors Jessica Alba, Hugh Laurie, Gerard Butler, and Jenna Elfman; guitarist Jamie Jazz; fashion designer Valentino Garavani; footballer Zlatan Ibrahimović, and musicians Rob Zombie and Frank Iero.

Ruthminlee (talk) 03:55, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Done - with this edit, in which I also removed the unlinked, uncited "Jamie Jazz". Thank you. Begoon ^talk 01:53, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

The Name "Pug"

Pug probably comes from the Latin word "pugnus" meaning "to fight", and which also can be used to mean "fist". Pug is also a lesser-known euphemism that substitutes for almost any "bad word". You can say "OMP!", "Oh, pug!" "Pug you!!" or anything else. Don't ask me, I didn't start it, but I swear it's true. RolePlayingKat (talk) 00:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

If you have a reliable source for the origin of the name, it could probably be added to the article. The euphemism bit doesn't seem to have anything to do with the animal. -- Fyrefly (talk) 00:30, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Copyedited

Richard asr (talk) 23:07, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I've just read through this article once more, having copy edited it a few days back, and feel it ought to be reconsidered for good article status. Obviously, a lot of informed and honest people who know the breed have been working on it, the length seems right, the references are good, the sections seem to flow and develop properly - I hope I might have helped in this - and I've just found it very interesting to read, although I'm not even a dog owner. Other people might as well, so I've stuck a good article nomination template at the top of this page. I hope that's alright. Richard asr (talk) 11:03, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Onion

Not going to make a GA review myself, but may I suggest taking out the satire section/Onion article? I checked myself, and I couldn't find much in the way of third-parties making a fuss about the article. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 20:57, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about removing the Onion article. It is a genuine reference and probably reflects a certain quarter of opinion about the breed. GA Wikipedia articles should be neutral in tone, broad in scope and fairly reflect all views and I think the main body of the piece comes across as quite supportive; the Media and culture, Celebrity owners section, in particular, has no difficulty in finding a lot of well-known and loyal lovers of pug dogs. This carried more positive weight for me, when I read it over again, than the negative satirical article, so the balance may be right.

Possibly a second short paragraph in 'Humour' giving another instance of a pug joke, emphasizing a more sympathetic facet of the breed, just to balance it up. But then, a GA reviewer can always be bold and remove the section with a swipe of the mouse and a prod of the keyboard, if that's felt to be necessary to pass it. Richard asr (talk) 09:22, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that most concerns were already covered in the health section. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 05:02, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

I've tried to redress the balance in 'Humour' and found an excellent series Humphrey the Pug by the well-known British cartoonist Mark Wood. Many are available to view online, possibly all of them, actually, and I'm sure they'll pass the Wikipedia criterion of notability. Richard asr (talk) 14:45, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Pug/GA3. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Cwmhiraeth (talk · contribs) 13:47, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I propose to take on this review and will make a detailed study of the article shortly. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 13:47, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

First reading

• It should not be necessary to have citations in the lead section as the lead is supposed to be a summary of the rest of the article, and the citations should be in the body of the text.
• The first paragraph in the "Physical characteristics" section is partly in the singular and partly the plural.
• "Breeding preference goes to "button" style ears." Do you mean that the breed standard advocates "button" ears?
• "... meeting in an under-bite." - You probably mean "resulting" as they obviously don't meet!
• "Later, the pug travelled to Japan, and finally Europe." - The meaning of this sentence is apparent but it does sound rather as if a single dog was going on tour.
• "During this period, the pug may have been involved in breeding with ..." - perhaps this should read "may have bred with ..."
• "... up front with the coachman on private carriages, dressed in matching jackets and pantaloons." - Perhaps "up front on private carriages, dressed in jackets and pantaloons that matched those of the coachman."
• "Ear cropping was outlawed in 1895." - "was made illegal"
• "Since pugs lack longer snouts ..." - might be better as "Since pugs have short snouts ..."
• "Pugs who live a mostly sedentary life ..." I think "that" or "which" would be better
• In the section "Common conditions", the first paragraph does not have a reference at the end. Perhaps you could rephrase the paragraph so that all the sentences are fully supported by the sources mentioned.
• "Pugs are one of several breeds that are more susceptible to demodectic mange," - more susceptible than what?
• "This condition is caused by a weakened immune system" - not so. It is caused by mange mites.
• "Pugs have many wrinkles in their faces, so owners may often clean inside the creases to avoid irritation and infection." - This contradicts an image caption which says "Proper care of the wrinkles is important."
• Though responsible breeders might refrain from breeding from a dog with this condition, I don't see that fact mentioned in the reference cited.
• "Cheeka is a famous pug who appeared in the "You & I" advertising campaign of Hutch's cellular phone service, Vodafone, in India." - This sentence is unreferenced and its meaning (the mention of Vodafone) is unclear.
• "In addition, the Duke and Duchess of Windsor have doted on the pug dogs they have kept." - I think the verbs needs to be in a different tense.
• Be consistent in your use of British English or American English (have a look at the image captions)
• References 12, 20 and 43 want attention.

• I see that this article was a GA previously but at some stage, for a reason not known to me, lost that status. That's all for now. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:29, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

• That was me - I was the original nominator and the person who worked the article up in the first place. Unfortunatly my earlier GA work, this included, wasn't great on the reliable source front and so I didn't want it to stay at GA and have new editors see the sourcing and think that they could use the same sources. So I reduced it in status. Miyagawa (talk) 10:35, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

• Thank you for the explanation. I shall need to consider the sourcing further. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 12:19, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi everyone. I nominated this article following a copy edit I did for the Guild of Copy Editors, since it was tagged as needing one. It seemed to tick all the boxes for me afterwards, so I went ahead and nominated it. The major query seems to be the references, doesn't it. I've just taken what you might call a financial auditing approach and randomly chosen ten references to check (using a random walk with a coin !!) They were: 49, 10, 31, 8, 16, 21, 11, 38, 46 and 40. The first six seem fine: though I have adjusted the sentence describing the cause of hermivertebrae to reflect reference 39 a little more accurately and in a little more detail. 11 and 46 I can't check since I don't have these sources. 38 and 40 are both fine and say what they claim to say. All the web sites I was directed to seemed to be reliable, secondary sources of information. I've found a reference to the Vodafone India advertising campaign in the Economic Times, an Indian financial newspaper in English, and put it in, along with the alterations you suggest.

I'll go through the other points you make, Cwmhiraeth, and just be bold.

I've looked at a copy of the article prior to my copy edit and will assume American English. There was one 'travelled' but no other common words underlined in red, and a section heading using 'color', as does a figure caption, as you rightly point out. British English probably mine. Apologies. Richard asr (talk) 11:45, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Adjusted 'travelled' and 'favoured' to 'traveled' and 'favored'; 'quitted' is inside a quotation and so shouldn't be altered. All else is now in American spelling. The dead link to Hogarth's painting at the Tate Gallery, reference 12, is live again - I think they revamped their website last year. I've removed reference 20 because it is redundant; a very authoritative reference 19 supports the same statement. Reference 43 is now formatted correctly, I hope. Richard asr (talk) 12:46, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

The Duke and Duchess of Windsor ambiguity is my fault entirely; I misunderstood the sentence - I thought it meant the current Duke and Duchess. I hope I've corrected that now. Red face and apologies. Alterations made to section 'Health Problems' as advised. Some of the earlier sections seem alright to me, so I'll leave it to you to alter them as you wish, which you are perfectly at liberty to do, as the GA reviewer. I like to try to retain the main author's 'voice' if possible. 'The lower teeth normally protrude further than their upper, meeting in an under-bite.' seems perfectly clear to me, and to most readers I would assume. The molars meet, resulting in a misalignment of the incisors. This is all the main author's voice, and in my opinion should be retained. Richard asr (talk) 15:46, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

I've just read the Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section and there is no prohibition on references in the lead. It just says: '... editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material.' Even the Manual of Style article itself has references in the lead section. Richard asr (talk) 16:09, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

That looks better. You have dealt with most of the problems I raised and I have made a few small changes. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:29, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

GA Criteria

• 1a The article is well written
• 1b The article conforms with the MOS guidelines and most of the points I raised above have been dealt with.
• 2a&b The article is well referenced and has inline citations for all contentious statements.
• 2c There is no original research as far as I can see.
• 3a&b The coverage is broad enough and the article does not include irrelevant material.
• 4 The article is neutral
• 5 The article was copy edited earlier in the year by the nominator and there has been no recent edit warring.
• 6 Some of the images are in the public domain having been created over one hundred years ago. Others are suitably licensed.
• 7 The images are relevant to the topic and have suitable captions. I particularly liked "Pugs may become overweight."
• Overall assessment - Pass.

Introduction in Europe in the 16th century

The page currently states that the pug was introduced in Europe by the Dutch East India Company in the 16th century, but this cannot be correct, as the Dutch East India Company was only founded in 1602. PHouben (talk) 16:31, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

China-related Problems

Hi page watchers, China expert here. I have just read this article for the first time, and while it is indeed well-written and deserving of its GA status generally, there are a number of errors and dubious citations in the "Origins in China" subsection. I'll list a few here.

• "during the Shang dynasty (before 400 BCE)" – we editors need to always do our basic fact-checking. Even if there were references to pugs in the Shang dynasty (which I doubt very much), the Shang dynasty ended in 1045 BCE, not 400 BCE. Whatever source provided that fact is off by more than 600 years.
• "References to pug-like dog as early as 551 BC...Confucius mentions a 'short-mouthed dog'" – this is almost certainly wrong, I have found no such dog reference anywhere in the Analects.
• I can find no reference to any term Lo Chiang Sze (modern Luo Jiang Si) in Chinese. There are a few lo sze words, but they have nothing to do with dogs (luosi 螺蛳 “snail", for example).

These errors seem to be perpetuated in the dog book sources used for this article, but they seem to be very much in error. I'll give other editors some time to look around before I start deleting anything from the article given its GA status. Thanks.  White Whirlwind  咨  02:52, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

No objections; deleting material.  White Whirlwind  咨  08:17, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Pugs may become overweight

What a stupid indication? Every dog may become overweight!!!79.201.136.130 (talk) 16:52, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

It's not well-put. Any dog can indeed become overweight, the article here means a specific tendency to do so. --Pitke (talk) 12:17, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Humour / Onion

Really? I have trouble seeing the article in question as nothing but scathing criticism on modern pug breeding in the form of satire. I.e. I think it should be criticism first, humour second. --Pitke (talk) 12:17, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

If anything, I think the cartoon should go, and the Onion should stay. The Onion is a huge website, I think it's fair to say it is Notable. That cartoon certainly isn't. To be honest, I'm not sure why you need a Humour section on a page about a dog breed.163.160.107.179 (talk) 08:55, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I concur. As a matter of fact I'd even go as far as to say that the article doesn't meet GA standards as is, as it fails to cover an important topic -- as far-bred breed as this is, with tons of congenital diseases and disorders some choose to see as charming peculiarities rather than discomfortable or even painful conditions, the article really REALLY should include a bit for criticism against extremes-seeking breeding and the breed standards and breed associations which allow if not even condone it. The humour section is as you said pretty superfluous and (I can't believe I didn't notice this before) the "media coverage" bit is nothing more than a glorified laundry list of various appearances in mainstream media and names of people who have happened to own Pugs, with nothing apart from occurrence tying these things together. No analysis, no broad strokes, nothing. AAMOF I'm going to cut it off right now. --Pitke (talk) 17:08, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Just let me do it. Those cuttings usually mess up the layout. Hafspajen (talk) 09:53, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• So, gone. Pitke, just go ahead and include a bit for criticism against extremes-seeking breeding and the breed standards and breed associations which allow if not even condone it. I will be very pleased. (Don't forget references thought.) Hafspajen (talk) 10:02, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

References

New picture

A Pug with a brindle coat

This dog looks like it levitates, don't understand it. Crisco 1492 - how does this work? Hafspajen (talk) 00:45, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

• Rotated; pug is probably laying down. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:06, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Anyway, I just checked the standard and brindle is not accepted, so we can't use it. But thanks anyway. Hafspajen (talk) 01:15, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2015

Hello, I have found the Chinese name for the Pug, which is 巴哥犬 (Bā gē quǎn), and I was wondering if I could add it to the page please. Jgc145c (talk) 12:53, 3 July 2015 (UTC)Thank you very much, JGC, 7/3/15, 7:54 (UTC)

Seems reasonable. A quick Google search concurs with the translations. Done, thanks! ‑ElHef (Meep?) 14:03, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

This has zero relevance for a breed of dog that was imported some 500 years ago. The Chinese term is also clearly a phonetic borrowing of the English term. This is about as interesting as giving the Chinese term for oranges. Or the Mayan term for Chihuahuas

Peter ^Isotalo 23:40, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20150312201047/http://www.ufaw.org.uk:80/Hemivertebrae.php to http://www.ufaw.org.uk/Hemivertebrae.php

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