Talk:Providence Bay

Link to earlier discussion

Names, names...

This article badly needs a map (not a problem itself) with verified locations of each geographical object mentioned. "Too many bays" ... Perhaps original American charts for referencing American titles. Otherwise the article may become an unreferenced mess of English, Chukchi, Old Russian, New Russian etc. synonyms. NVO (talk) 07:56, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

• to illustrate the point, Russian source referring to 1876 events [1] describes Plover Bay as a second-tier harbor inside Providence Bay - contrary to current article text. Any chances of getting in touch with William Barr (Arctic historian) ? NVO (talk) 08:11, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

For Plover Bay, there were at least two usages (cited in article, though maybe not clearly enough). Some writers referred to the specific anchorage behind the spit, some used it as a synonym for Providence Bay. I have someplace seen one writer refer to it as the entire portion of Providence Bay behind the spit but unfortunately I do not remember what source that was. Either the first or the third of these could be the same usage as your source, depending on the meaning of Harbor. I think when we get this worked out, we will find that usage of Plover/Providence was variable, with Captains using the name they first learned or whatever it said on their charts, and non-mariners misunderstanding fine distinctions of geography.

Sorting out the maze of bays and names is (at least initially) the point of the article. However it is not an unreferenced mess. All usages listed in the article are included within the citations. I left the terminology of the original source (for instance Muir) specifically to indicate the range of usages employed. We could do a table of usage/author but I think it is beyond the scope of an encyclopedia. Maybe put it on this page for those who want to dig.

There are probably some late 19th century American charts with these names, but if anyone has put one on the web I do not know how to find it. The first external link is an original sketch map from 1869. I have not found anything else that is large-scale and used the old names. This map could be incorporated into the article, just a question of time and effort. We also need a modern, accurate map for distances, shape of bays, etc. but I have never tried to work through the copyright issues.

Nice job on the intro and cleanup, my chief concern is the sentence "Port Providence was an anchorage behind Napkum Spit immediately east of Providence Bay." This seems to imply that it is outside the bay. I would say "...Spit, within the bay."; someone who wants to know more can look below. You dropped Hooper's name from Tents of the Tuski, I'll put it back. The bracketed [w] in the New York Times 1921 piece was because I corrected a misreading in the digitization, so unfortunately is necessary even though it hurts readability. This is also why that reference has its own URL.

Provideniya Bay Airport is not exactly on the bay; there is a small mountain range between. Could be clearer but I have no simple suggestion.Dankarl (talk) 14:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Note added for later readers: Reorganized intro to clarify; the bay in the preceding comment was Providence Bay. Airport lies south of Ureliki in valley.

US chart 1937. Note village names. Uredlak appears between 1923 and 19331928. Note names of bays in upper reaches of providence bay do not match the ones quoted by NYT and Dahl. http://historicalcharts.noaa.gov/tiled_jpgs_done/zoomifyURLDrivenWebPage.htm?zoomifyImagePath=9302_6-1937 Dankarl (talk) 20:25, 1 June 2009 (UTC)Dankarl (talk) 20:30, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Kleist ?

Who was "baron Kleist"? At that time the seat of Amur region governor was taken by Pavel Unterberger ru:Унтербергер, Павел Фридрихович; he was grandson of a coachmaker and had no titles. Russian sources appear to be unaware of any Kleist in the area. Incidentally, the pair "Thomson and Kleist" in Russian culture refer specifically to Ewald Christian von Kleist and James Thomson (poet) (they are now forgotten but where in vogue some 200 years ago). NVO (talk) 10:25, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I see you found a reference. He occurs in both Bartlett and Scull references, though Scull never met him; Kleist was in Anadyr with his wife. According to Bartlett, in 1914 he was 40ish, vigorous, toured Chukota alone by dogsled. Did you get a first name from your source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dankarl (talk • contribs) 14:48, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

No name - this source is on Kamchatka shipping, there's a lot of hull displacements but not a hint on the personality. http://www.v-kleist.com/ has a purportedly complete genealogy of von Kleists since Adam, but no fast click to Sibir or Kamtschatka or whatever spelling they used. The book by Popov refers to Anton Silnitsky memoirs, only pieces of it available online at Kamchatka library. NVO (talk) 15:28, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Photo of "Bially" Thompson 1921. Estonian. http://books.google.com/books?id=QAcwAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA389&dq=%22Emma+Harbor%22+whalers#PRA2-PA392,M1

Use of "Siberia"

Re: comment on Wikiproject Arctic Russia talk. I take your point. Russian usage, especially modern, distinguishes the Russian Far East from Siberia. However 19th century English-language writers didn't. See also Siberia. Also I guess there would be would be a lot more readers looking for Providence Bay (Rhode Island) and though it would be cool to turn them on to Beringian history this probably isn't the vehicle. I put a note on Wikiproject Arctic talk that discussion continues here. How do you make these cross-link?Dankarl (talk) 16:43, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

• Cross-link - what? I see your post at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Arctic#Canadian Arctic Expedition 1913-1916 (Stefansson, Karluk), but so far none on Provideniya. Or did you mean disambiguation page like Providence? NVO (talk) 17:39, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

no nothing fancy, just so somebody who picks up on this conversation can click back to the earlier without having to read or search the whole talk page. I guess the simplest is to link to the header which I can figure out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dankarl (talk • contribs) 18:01, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Oops Should have said Wikiproject Russia, forgot where this started.Dankarl (talk) 18:11, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

anyway look at the top of this page, you can see what I'm trying to do but so far it doesn't work.Dankarl (talk) 18:22, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Strelok and Whalers

Interesting story. Just for curiosity, do you have the names of the whalers? Corwin and Rodgers, besides looking for Jeanette were seeking two missing whalers, both eventually believed lost. Artifacts from both were recovered from Chukchis who had found them on only one ship, leading investigators to believe one whaler had picked up survivors from other. I'll get names and dates.Dankarl (talk) 17:34, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

• Could be the same, I have no names apart from those already mentioned. I wonder how long it took to spread the news then (the Pacific Cable wasn't there until 1902). NVO (talk) 17:39, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Whalers were Vigilant and Mount Wollaston. New York Times Nov 7, 1881 'A summer in polar seas. Captain Hooper's report..." see also New York Times July 20, 1881 "The lost arctic whalers Tidings of the Vigilant..." This story of the arrival of the Thomas Pope at San Francisco, where it was initially mistaken tor the Vigilant, may account for part of the story told by the Handy. Muir has the Rodgers leaving Plover Bay August 17 so the Handy's people could have known a version of the information in the New York Times report which was reprinted from the San Fransisco Alta of July 13 (or maybe July 18; the type face is not absolutely clear).Dankarl (talk) 13:16, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

• The most interesting (and scary) story, however, is what happened in Providenya in 1945-1952 and how the coaling station became sort of a town. Basically, a whole division of WW2 veterans, instead of going home, was dumpen on the Arctic coast to take care of themselves. Too bad it's all non-reliable sources NVO (talk) 17:43, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Chukchis or Yupiks

I'm less confident of the identification of the tent village on the spit as a Chukchi village. Siberian Yupiks used the 2-room Yaranga and apparently also the term Yaranga. Also had the tonsure described by several writers. There may be a cultural gradation Yupik<>Chukchi, one writer basically says coastal Chukchi were originally Yupik . Not a lot of citeable sources in English. Can any Russian speakers help clear this up?Dankarl (talk) 13:18, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

• Russian 1994 encyclopedia People of Russia (ISBN 5852700827, pp. 421-423) actually equates Yupik = Eskimo (i.e. = the subset of Eskimos living on Russian coast):

Eskimo, also yupigit, yugit <self-ethnonym>, ankalyn <Chukchi for coastal people>, nymylgyn <Koryak for sedentary people, settlers> (юпигыт, югыт, анкалын, нымылгын). Pop. in Russia 1,7 thousand. Live mixed with Chukchi on eastern Chukotka coast and Wrangel Island. Speak three dialects (Naukan, Chaplinsky <listed under Central Siberian Yupik language>, Sireniki). Literacy, introduced in 1930s, is based on Chaplinsky dialect.

Russians of 17th-18th century called them "sitting <sedentary?> Chukchi" or "Chukchi on foot" <?>.

Until mid-19th century Eskimos lived in semi-dugout winter huts grouped in large villages, but under growing Chukchi influence switched to Chukchi-style yaranga in winter and summer huts of morse hide over wooden frame. In the end of 19th century the wealthier Eskimos lived in wooden houses brought and set up by American traders.

Until the end of 19th century they also retained large communal dugouts that could fit a few families living or a whole village feasting.

Women arranged their hair in twin braids, men shaved their heads, leaving a circle or just a ponytail of hair on their temples.

... and two pages on historical dress filled with antique words... NVO (talk) 15:19, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

So it appears that Russian sources, apart from ethnologists, simply called all these natives Chukchi, and when they crossed the date line, the natives "became" Eskimos. NVO (talk) 15:19, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Provideniya or Providence

As this article grows, it is beginning to focus almost as much on geography as history. This is making the use of Providence Bay as the article title anachronistic and the mix of names in the text awkward. I propose eventual renaming as Provideniya Bay with the usual redirect. As mentioned in an earlier comment, sorting out the maze of bays and names is an important function of the article, so I propose to keep using the original-source names in the history section, with explanation of synonyms as appropriate, but to make the Russian names primary in the Geography section.Dankarl (talk) 14:23, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Whalers in 1845-48 visiting Plover Bay?

Besides Thomas Welcome Roys being in the area in the summer of 1848, what other ships could have been "thought" to have reached this region between 1845 and 1848? I can't think of any. The majority would have been in the southwestern Bering Sea and off Cape Lopatka hunting right whales. SaberToothedWhale (talk) 01:10, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

The sentence is question is based on the following quote from Marcus Baker, source (19) cited in the article.

"Previous to 1848 Plover Bay though an extensive arm of the sea running inland some 20 to 25 miles appears not to have been known. It is not shown upon any map before 1850. In the period from 1845 to 1848 it seems to have been visited by the whalers. The first information touching it upon which we can lay our hands is the report of Commander Moore to the Admiralty published in the Nautical Magazine March 1850."

One possible reason for Baker's assertion is the enthusiastic reception Moore and the Plover received. As far as I am aware you are the first to raise the question "what ship?". Dankarl (talk) 00:27, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

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