Talk:Protestant Church in Germany/Archive 1

Archived discussions for the years 2005 through 2009. Note: discussions may have been refactored.

Summary

The first four discussions flesh out the most appropriate way to translate Evangelische into English. The two choices were Evangelical and Protestant. Both English terms had advantages and disadvantages. It was noted that in English, evangelical is often assumed to refer to Evangelicalism, but on the other hand in referring to itself in the English language, the EKD uses Evangelical. Protestant was favored by some as closer to the meaning of Evangelische. As of the last discussion in this archive, the article title remained the Evangelical Church in Germany.

Evangelical/Protestant

Does "Evangelical" really conform to "Protestant"? My understanding was the "Evangelical" generally referred to Lutheran Churches. john k 20:35, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

We have to know that the word "Evangelical" has different meanings in the various countries. In Germany it belongs to "Protestant" Churches (Reformed/United/Lutheran), but it can also mean that it is a conservative movement in differenet protestant churches in Germany. GLGerman 22:46, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Ony some of the EKD's member churches are nominally Lutheran - others are Reformed or Unionist - and even in those classical Lutheranism is waning. Str1977 ^(talk) 08:59, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I think you mean united rather than unionist. —Angr 12:01, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Wrong Title

I'm German, and I know that evangelisch means "protestant", not "evangelical". So the article needs to be shiftet to the correct designation Protestant Church in Germany. The German word for "evangelical" is evangelikal, a borrowing from English that replaced the older pietistisch. -- 84.190.133.138 19:22, 9 December 2006 (UTC) --Weidner-Kim(at)bigfoot.com

That´s not true. In German "evangelical" means conservative protestant view for a protestant movement since the beginning of the 20.th century and not a Replacement of "pietismus". We have also today the word "pietistisch" in geman language and the word means not the same as german word "evangelikal". GLGerman 05:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

"Evangelical" in English has two different senses. One of them means more or less "Protestant." See, for instance, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada. Evangelisch should not be translated "Protestant" in a proper name. German protestant churches, or protestant churches in a German tradition, are called "Evangelical" in English. john k 23:00, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

So that´s interesting: the word "evangelical" in English has two different senes? Good to know in german language.GLGerman 05:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Problems with correct translation: Meaning of word "evangelical" in English and "evangelikal" in German and word "evangelisch" in German

German language

• "protestantisch"=the sense is protestant
• "evangelisch"= the sense is protestant or the word "evangelical" in the sense of "protestant"
• "evangelikal"= the sense is a conservative, protestant movement since the beginning of 20th century
• "pietistisch"=the sense is pietism and not a conservative movement since the beginning of 20th century

English Language

• "protestant"=the sense is the german word "protestantisch" or the german word "evangelisch"
• "Pietism"=the sense is the german word "pietistisch"
• "Evangelical"=the sense is the german word "evangelical" and means a conservative movement since 20th century or the sense of the german words "evangelisch" and "protestantisch"

-- [Unsigned comment by GLGerman 05:38, 22 December 2006]

German "Evangelisch" in a proper name should be, and usually is, translated as "Evangelical". john k 16:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

As one can see when following the link to the German protestant churches website, they call themselves in the "copyright notice" the "Evangelical Church of Germany" while speaking on the same page of "Protestant member churches in Germany". To me "evangelical" always carries the sense of "evangelikal" with it, i.e. the conservative right wing. But who am I to tell them how they have to translate themselves to english?--L.Willms 15:46, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the "Note on the term Evangelical in German usage" makes this difficulty sufficiently clear. There is only one sentence in this paragraph that might be a problem: "It can thus be considered a united church." You better not let any of the Lutheran or Reformed EKD member churches hear that you consider the EKD to be a "united church", or you're gonna be in trouble! Anna (talk) 23:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Just decided to erase that sentence myself. As the beginning of the article correctly states, the "Evangelical Church in Germany... is a FEDERATION of 23 regional Lutheran, Reformed and United Protestant churches", not a Lutheran, Reformed or United church body in itself. Anna (talk) 16:21, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Inconsistency

For some reason, in the list of member churches, Evangelisch is sometimes being translated as "Protestant," and sometimes as "Evangelical." It seems to me that we ought to be consistent about it. Given the location of this article, I've changed it so that they're all called "Evangelical". Obviously, this is Evangelical in the German sense, where it basically means protestant, but given that there are churches in the Anglophone world that use "Evangelical" in the same sense as the German "Evangelische," (e.g. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America), I think we ought to translate more literally. john k 01:28, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

New Apostolic Church = Protestant??

I am a bit confused about the New Apostolic Church being listed among the Protestant churches. I am not really sure about its origins, but as far as the current situation (in Germany at least) is concerned, they do not participate in any Protestant or ecumenical conferences (see: "Arbeitsgemeinschaft Christlicher Kirchen in Deutschland" from the German Wikipedia and World Council of Churches#Members), and mutual recognition remains difficult. Official information and evaluation of the New Apostolic Church by the "Evangelische Zentralstelle für Weltanschauungsfragen" here. Anna (talk) 23:29, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Christians who are neither catholic nor orthodox are generally seen as protestants. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.225.232 (talk) 15:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

This seems a bit unsatisfactory to me. For one thing, the New Apostolic Church, to the best of my knowledge, has its roots much more in the Catholic church, plus some extras of their own.

More importantly though, the Wikipedia definition of Protestantism states that "Protestantism encompasses the forms of Christian faith and practice that originated with the doctrines of the Reformation", which is certainly not true for the New Apostolic church. Particularly if by definition a Protestant church "holds that biblical scripture (rather than tradition or ecclesiastic interpretation of scripture) is the only source of revealed biblical truth", this certainly does not apply to the New Apostolic church with its interpretational office of the apostle. Anna (talk) 15:00, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Full communion with The Episcopal Church USA?

I'm an active Episcopalian in Germany, and I'm fairly certain that The Episcopal Church is not in full communion with the EKD in Germany. Full communion would imply that clergy are fully interchangeable, which is not currently the case -- an EKD pastor can't celebrate Communion at an Episcopal parish in Germany, and vice versa, though they may take part in such a service.

There is a mutual agreement establishing relations between the Church of England and the EKD (see the Meissen Declaration) that does not establish full communion but looks forward to the future establishment of it. However, to my knowledge there is no agreed formal relationship between the EKD and TEC -- though TEC and the Church of England are both part of the Anglican Communion, one does not speak for the other. What is the source of this assertion? I see no mention of it on either the EKD or TEC websites. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fairfax71 (talk • contribs) 12:23, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I too am an active Episcopalian in Germany and I'm pretty sure you're right. The Episcopal Church is in full communion with the ELCA, and the Church of England is in full communion with the Nordic churches of the Porvoo Communion, but I'm pretty sure no Anglican church is in full communion with the EKD. I've removed the paragraph entirely because it was completely unsourced, also for the Reformed and United churches it mentioned. +Angr 12:45, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

The Churches of the Anglican Communion (like the Episcopal Church) are actually in full communion with the Old Catholic Church, not with the Evangelical Church in Germany. Here is the source: The relationship with the Anglican Churches. --77.181.235.40 (talk) 12:32, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Update

Hey "Angr", ich wollte dich fragen, ob du ein Update der EKD-Karte vornehmen kannst. Es haben sich nämlich mittlerweile die "Evangelisch-Lutherische Kirche in Thüringen" und die "Evangelische Kirche der Kirchenprovinz Sachsen" zur "Evangelischen Kirche in Mitteldeutschland" zusammengeschlossen. Da ich erst neu in der engl. Wikipedia bin und anscheinend (noch) keine Bilder hochloaden kann, wäre es super, wenn du evtl. auch die EKD-Karte der dt. Wikipedia hochladen könntest: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Deutschland_Landeskirchen_ev.png Quae supra nos nihil ad nos (talk) 14:48, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I'll try to find time for it. We also need to update the articles Evangelical Lutheran Church in Thuringia and Evangelical Church of the Church Province of Saxony to indicate the merger, and possibly write an article on the new Evangelical Church of Central Germany. As for de:Datei:Deutschland Landeskirchen ev.png, it should really be moved to Commons, not uploaded here separately. +Angr 14:59, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Dissent from conservatives

The article should really consider looking into whether there has ever been any doctrinal dissent from conservatives within the Evangelical Church in Germany, who might feel alienated about decisions surrounding the ordination of women or the blessing of same-sex marriages. It is possible to imagine that if this dissent were not healed, many of these conservatives would consider forming their own ecclesial community, which might be tempted to reunite with the Catholic Church, such as recently seen with the Traditional Anglican Communion. ADM (talk) 16:00, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I imagine any conservatives who disagree with the direction the EKD is going would be more likely to shift to one of the conservative Protestant free churches, such as the Independent Evangelical-Lutheran Church, than to be tempted to be reunited with the Roman Catholics. +Angr 19:41, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Living in Germany I've never heard of anybody leaving the EKD due to the ordination of women or the blessing of same-sex unions. --77.181.235.40 (talk) 12:53, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

By the way, the new conservative CDU Federal Minister for Family Affairs Kristina Köhler is a member of the conservative Independent Evangelical-Lutheran Church. In one of her first statements as Federal Minister she acknowleged the value of same-sex unions [1][2]. In the picture you can see her participating in a christopher street day parade. --77.181.235.40 (talk) 13:24, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Untranslated list

The following list on institutions of the EKD was in German. If anyone could translate it that would be great:

• Brot für die Welt, Stuttgart (counterpart to Bread for the World)
• Diakonisches Werk (DW), Stuttgart
• Diakonie Katastrophenhilfe, Stuttgart
• Evangelischer Entwicklungsdienst (EED), Bonn
• Evangelisches Missionswerk in Deutschland e.V. (EMW)
• Gemeinschaftswerk der Evangelischen Publizistik gGmbH (GEP), Frankfurt am Main
• Evangelisches Zentralarchiv, Berlin
• Kirchenrechtliches Institut der EKD, Göttingen
• Evangelische Zentralstelle für Weltanschauungsfragen (EZW),Berlin
• Konfessionskundliches Institut (KI)
• Institut für Kirchenbau und kirchliche Kunst der Gegenwart, Marburg
• Sozialwissenschaftliches Institut der EKD (SI), Hanover
• Evangelische Schulstiftung in der EKD
• Evangelische Arbeitsstelle Fernstudium für kirchliche Dienste, Gelnhausen
• Gemeinsame Arbeitsstelle für gottesdienstliche Fragen der EKD, Hanover
• Burckhardthaus, Evangelisches Institut für Jugend-, Kultur- und Sozialarbeit e.V.
• Frauenstudien- und -bildungszentrum der Evangelischen Kirche in Deutschland, Gelnhausen
• Aussiedlerseelsorge in der EKD, Hanover
• Informations- und Dokumentationsstelle der EKD
• Kirchlicher Dienst in der Arbeitswelt
• Arbeitsgemeinschaft Missionarische Dienste
• Zirkus- und Schaustellerseelsorge, Hanover
• Evangelisches Studienwerk e.V. Villigst

Ltwin (talk) 20:10, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

These are the proper names of the various institutions. It wouldn't make sense to translate them. +Angr 20:42, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

It may be their proper names, but the readers of this encyclopedia don't speak German. Translations would add to encyclopedic value. Ltwin (talk) 20:46, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Translations would be original research if they don't have established English names. And I don't think this list has much encyclopedic value in any language. +Angr 20:52, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Well neither did I, but as it was already in the article and as I didn't actually know what it said, I left it here so it didn't appear like I was randomly deleting parts of the article :). Ltwin (talk) 20:55, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Help with Protestant Reich Church article

Please, if anyone knows about the history of the Evangelical Church in Germany, could you please take a look at the Protestant Reich Church. When I first read it, most of it was talking about the Confessing Church, which has its own article. Also, there seems to be some inconsistency between these three articles. This article says that the Protestant Reich Church and the German Evangelical Church were two different churces. But they link to the same article. The only thing I know about these churches is from Wikipedia, so I'm not the best person to be leading a reorganization of these articles. I need help! Ltwin (talk) 09:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)