Talk:Protest song/Archive 1

Archive 1

Title

Oh, let's belabor a little. This article lacks rigor. Burl Ives was a pioneer folk singer, harassed for his left-wing views, but not a protest singer that I can recall. Bruce Springsteen is a protest singer but not a folk singer, Elvis Costello, Marvin Gaye, down in the canebrake plunking on the banjo, etc. "Losing My Religion" is not about religion, it's an old southern expression meaning, losing my attraction. Ortolan88

Yes, I agree that this article lacks rigor, and is losing more as we all add songs to the list. I don't know if having a category for songs protesting alienation is any more valid that having a category for songs protesting tourism. (And yes, a couple come to mind: "Holidays in the Sun" by the Sex Pistols and "Everyday Is Like Sunday" by Morrissey.) Maybe it would be a good idea to separate the list of songs from the topic of what a protest song is in two different articles? Two halves

Hey, wait a second. Songs protesting alienation most definitely belong in the category of protest songs. This was one of the major themes of social protest during the 1960s. The big reason why "Sounds of Silence" became a big hit in 1965 was that it struck a nerve with the rising New Left sensibility of the 1960s. Alienation was a big theme of the New Left at the time, and this one of the big issues that distinguished it from the Old Left. ("I am a human being--do not fold, spindle or mutiliate" was a common slogan of the time.) So there is no question that the Simon and Garfunkel songs belong in the list of protest songs.

Actually, it was Karl Marx who introduced the concept of alienation to the world. His concern was the separation between the worker and her work, crudely speaking. Ortolan88

Um, speaking of Marx, it says "every mass movement in the West" but doesn't mention the French Revolution, surely a source of lots of prototypical protest songs, as well as Marx's immediate inspiration. Since when is France not part of the "West"?? That's a little strange. Let's admit it, protest songs are a development of the Enlightenment, which gave rise to the notion that it might be possible to have a better life here on earth, no?

Yes, good point. Still, I think the 1960s conception of the term was a little different, and had more to do with the isolation of individuals in modern society. "Alienation" was the big part of the Simon and Garfunkle identity. Actually, I remember in 1975, in one of the first episodes of "Saturday Night Live", Paul Simon was a musical guest, and he appeared onstage in a chicken suit. He explained on the show that he was reluctant to appear this way, but the producers asked him if he wanted to always be known as "Mr. Alienation". soulpatch

That being said, I would agree that some of the songs on this list don't really belong, and it is clear that most of the songs on the list are not folk songs, but rock songs, so some kind of definition of the concept that discusses the genres of music that produce protest songs is in order. Protest songs probably entered rock music via folk rock, but once it made it there rock became a major vehicle for social protest, at least for a while. And, by the way, Simon and Garfunkle sang folk rock. So there. soulpatch

On another note--didn't Burl Ives name names during the McCarthy era witch hunts? That would seem to place him in a somewhat exceptional category among "protest singers". soulpatch

Yes. He pointed the finger at Pete Seeger, among others. -- Zoe

He fingered just two people: his friend, fellow folksinger Richard Dyer Bennet, and Harlem Congressman Benjamin Davis, who had run on the Communist Party USA ticket. He figured the committee already knew they were Communists. However it was reported, inaccurately, that he had named hundreds of names.

I just wanted to note that I've never thought of a protest song as being necessarily folk. I could be wrong, but that's not how I've ever used the term. Tokerboy 07:11 Nov 24, 2002 (UTC)

I'd say that historically, folk music (in the true sense of non-commercial music rising among the people) and Folk Music (in the sense of the commercial distribution of music in the first category) are definitely at the root of the idea that music can convey messages beyond the usual pop-music fare of love, betrayal, novelty, etc. Leadbelly, Josh White, and so forth were taken up by leftists who were geniuinely interested in the music, but also pushing an agenda. Then came groups like The Weavers who were no more real "folk" than Peter, Paul and Mary were. That is, each of them was strictly an "act" despite active PR efforts to obscure the fact and to market them to their natural audience.

So, my idea of rigor would be some statement that first protest appeared in folk music, was quickly commercialized by mostly leftists, but that then folk music so pervaded and influenced pop music that protest began showing up there, and that there is now protest music totally divorced from folk music. Then, put some categories in the article for putting various tunes under one roof, etc. Ortolan88 16:32 Nov 24, 2002 (UTC)

I guess some people have a really expansive meaning of protest song. When I think of the meaning of 'protest song' I think of things like "Come All You Coal Miners" and "I Ain't Marching Any More". Songs that focused on simple lyrics with uncomplicated metaphor to talk about current events and explain a situation to the listener to move him or her into action to better the situation. Now, some modern songs have these qualities, and I would even think songs like "911 is a Joke" (telling people not to use the 911 service) and "Legalize It" (about legalizing marijuana) could be considered protest songs. However, songs like "Californication" and "Losing My Religion" are just too vague in their lyrics to be considered protest songs. I admit that these songs probably do have some kind of message, but not all songs that have a message should be considered protest songs. Is "Barbie Girl" a protest song against consumer culture? I don't think so. Maybe if we can get a consensus here, we can begin weeding down these faux protest songs. Like "Poptones" (lyrics [1]). This is not in the same category as The Internationale. --The demiurge 07:49, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hah. If I'm thinking about protest songs, commercial music is the last thing that comes to my mind. Songs like "What shall we drink?" (or whatever the English version is called), which is a catchy tune dating at least back to the weaver riots in late medieval Germany (similar versions may have existed before) are more like it. The equivalent would be the kind of elaborate protest songs you hear occassionally at larger, LONGER, protests against whatever is worth fighting.

Protest songs are hardly ever professionally made. Either they're created on the spot or they are adopted, but they only become protest songs if they are used as such. They need to fulfill certain requirements to qualify as potential protest songs, but I wouldn't call anything like Californication a protest song simply because it has a lot of implicit critique in it and might be used as a protest song.

Also, not every song played in a protest is a protest song. Usually protests, like anything else, eventually have a certain theme song, which may or may not be a protest song, which is played over and over again.

Either way, the concept of "protest songs" clearly divides into two categories, namely, songs written in protest (you can hardly distribute something commercially if you want to protest against commercialisation, btw -- you don't want to earn money with protest, so you can hardly SELL your protest for money) and songs used as protest songs (i.e. songs which may not originally have been intended as protest songs, but can be used that way, especially if you rewrite a few verses or replace a few words, or simply give them a different meaning by context).

The Internationale would be the first category, something like Californication could possibly be the second category, if it's ever used that way (but, again, it's not a choice of the artist, it's a choice of whoever wants to use it in protest). Songs like Dear Mr. President OTOH are neither. There's some level of critique in most songs, but saying that something or someone sucks in various ways doesn't make a song a protest song, that's just critique. And as long as you're recording the song professionally, put it on a CD and earn money with it, mere protest having been your main intention with writing that song seems doubtful at best. — Ashmodai ^{(talk · contribs)} 07:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I cut out the whole section of "songs protesting alienation" because not only does the concept of a protest song against alienation not make sense to me, but I can't see how any of these songs are really protesting anything, in the "protest song" sense. If you really think these are protest songs, please respond. --The demiurge 04:09, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

A song like "Peg and Awl" is not really a protest song. It is a definitely a song of complaint about a topical issue, but there is no suggestion of a hope that things could be different or better if only "I had a hammer", say. Like the "Boll Weevil", or "John Henry", many folk songs, especially the blues, are songs of complaint, deep sadness (and/or satire) about real events, social situations, and people (unlike a lot of commodified pop music which has predictable content). Folk music is often topical and partisan, and it expresses truths about how people really feel about real issues (not excluding alienation), and that is the key to its great appeal, but it is not a self conscious protesting, rather it is a response to life and its issues.

Groups such as the Wobblies and later the Almanacs (who are described in a very inaccurate and biased way in this article), on the other hand, adapted folk songs and made them into protest songs by changing a word here and there. They consciously used songs to achieve specific goals or to build a movement for change. They also sang traditional folk songs to convey information about history and social conditions. The unions songs that the Almanac singers sang in Talking Union made no mention of FDR, contrary to what is written here. Also, as mentioned above, a lot of rock music incorporates a vague non-specific rebelliousnes, but does not offer any hope or solutions. I think the Almanacs were true folksingers, and not a fake "act" -- all folk singing is performance and recreation. Two of the Almanacs, Lee Hays and Woody Guthrie, came out of a genuine Southern and Western folk tradition, the others had been steeped in folk music. Most significantly, the Almanacs (regardless of their social or regional backgrounds) introduced a true vernacular style of singing, based on traditional American string band music -- they sang in rough unison (unlike the Hutchinson Family mentioned in the article, who sang harmony, which requires some training). This energetic, folk-based informal style, using traditional instruments, was continued by The Weavers, who, nevertheless, unlike the Amlanacs, and in contrast to what is asserted in the article, sang few real protest songs. (They were advised not to by their manager because of the redbaiting atmosphere of the 1950s, which nevertheless destroyed them.) "Good Night Irene" was not a protest song, rather it had a veiled meaning of protest because people understood that it was written by a black man. Even the message of "If I Had a Hammer", arguably an authentic protest song written by Hays and Seeger, was so abstract that in effect its meaning was somewhat veiled. As was "Wimoweh" about Shaka the Zulu, who fought against the colonialists. You had to be in the know, to understand these songs.96.250.24.191 (talk) 07:38, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you to a point, but I think you fail to realise how the meaning of the handle "protest song" has changed and evolved over time - just because the term has come to represent more abstract forms of protest doesn't mean that there is one meaning of the term which is true, and another which is false. We can't go to Wiktionary and argue "the word 'gay' originally meant 'happy', so we should only represent this more original and truer meaning". It's not for us as editors to make a judgment call on what a protest song should or should not be, it's only our job to represent how society uses the term, and for better or worse look at any contemporary book on the subject, any contemporary article, website, music magazine and you will see that our use of the term in our lexicon has come to incorporate these more abstract forms of protest; and I think there are lots of references to the article that attest to this fact. The article has many problems, but I strongly feel that a more regimented inclusion/exclusion policy or definition would not solve any of them, and would not represent what the term as evolved into. I appreciate your opinion though, and perhaps, like in most things, the best way forward is a compromise between our two opposing views on the article. And of course I'll always go along with common consensus. peace Warchef (talk) 10:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The article mentions the Wobblies, the Abolitionists, and Union organizers, but it fails to mention the Popular Front (1936-39 or 45, depending) or Pete Seeger's later organization People's Songs (1944-49), which was set up to disseminate protest songs. These omissions make the article seem unfocused and a bit weird. It is also strangely short on chronology, making all the developments seem unrelated. If Warchef thinks that the term "protest song" has evolved over time, then he or someone else could edit the article to indicate how, when, and why that occurred, with suitable verifiable references. This is not the same as making a "judgment call on what a protest song 'should' or 'should not' be." Those who made protest songs provided plenty of written testimony on what they thought they were doing and why. The article ought to refer to some of this material. I gather that Warchef concedes that the older protest songs assumed change was possible and that modern ones merely express dissatisfaction and do not propose solutions, is that right? If true, that is an interesting development.

The lyrics of "Peg and Awl" conclude, "They've invented a new machine, peg and awl/, They've invented a new machine, peg and awl,/ They've invented a new machine, /prettiest little thing you've ever seen. Throw away my peg, my peg, my peg, my awl." There is not hint of protest in that, rather half-humorous resignation. So I think the statement that it is not a protest song is supported by the lyrics and is not arbitrary or "sitting in judgment." On the other hand, Pete Seeger showed that you could change "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" to a protest song by altering the final couplet from "If pretty little bluebirds fly over the rainbow / why o, o why can't I?" to "If pretty little bluebirds fly over the rainbow, why can't you and I?", which is much more hopeful. These examples could be multiplied. Mballen (talk) 00:19, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

i think you miss my point - all i'm saying is it doesn't matter what us editors believe or agree here on the talk page, the absolute golden rule for wikipedia is verifiability. if a reference is provided referring to a song as one of protest, then it's legitimate for inclusion; if there is no reference supporting its status as a protest song, you (or whoever) have the right to remove it - that's how this whole thing works. like i say, i agree that the article has some serious shortcomings, but i feel you're closer the mark when you highlight the lack of chronology - the structural problems, and the lack of a red line of development throughout (as well as the fact that many paragraphs are merely lists of songs in paragraph form; not very encyclopedic) are all much more deserving of immediate attention. and while i completely agree with you about the popular front and people songs being glaring omissions, i suggest that you be bold and add them yourself, and improve the article as you see fit, as opposed to merely leaving complaints on the talk page. you're clearlyu very well-informed on the subject and i'm sure your contributions would be invaluable.

also, as a sidenote i would say that yes, i do concede that "the older protest songs assumed change was possible and that modern ones merely express dissatisfaction and do not propose solutions" to a point (it's a bit of a generalisation, but basically correct i guess). especially after the 1960's, after altamont, etc., when we had failed to overcome, and people's disillusion with the protest movement's ability to illicit real change resulted in singers starting to ask questions like "what's going on?," or stopped trying to change the system internally and started to see the system itself as the problem (see punk, for example, whose anarchic form of protest doesn't easily accomodate the earlier notions of hope that you refer to) etc. and also, on a macro-level, the progression from hope to a more philosophical cynicism is indicative of the 20th century man's existential crisis in gerneral, and can be seen in most other art forms (such as modernism in both art and literature).in any case, i agree with you that information on the etymology of the phrase would be a valuable addition to the article, and might go some way to help it have some structure. i'll see what sources i can find on the matter. peace Warchef (talk) 18:55, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm flattered at the suggestion that I myself should add to the article. To tell the truth, I have been thinking about it, but I want leave my criticisms here for a while for people to mull over, before I attempt it, if I do decide to. Maybe someone else will want to give it a shot. I will say that I also believe that just referencing a statement that a song is a protest song is not enough. The reference has to be a credible one, if I understand the guidelines correctly. Still, a case could be made that a song like "Cutty Wren" became a protest song when it was perceived to be one (because of A.L. Lloyd's somewhat bogus theories about it), even though most scholars don't think it was one to begin with.

I will propose a possible addition to the references: Barbara Dane and Irwin Silber's Vietnam Songbook (London: The Guardian, 1969). Mballen (talk) 02:11, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

The Cutty Wren

The article begins by saying that the "Cutty Wren" is the oldest protest song, but Wikipedia's own article about the "Cutty Wren" attributes this notion to an assertion of folksinger A. L. Lloyd in the mid-twentieth century that is disputed by other scholars. I think, to be accurate, the article needs to either qualify its bald assertion about the "Cutty Wren" as oldest protest song by saying something like "One scholar, British folksinger, A.L. Llyod (1908-82), believes the 'Cutty Wren' to be song about a Peasants revolt (or whatever), which would make it the oldest British protest song, but that other scholars dispute his interpretation of the symbolic meaning of the song's lyrics" -- with links to back this up. In any case, if it is a protest song it is a very disguised one, written in a symbolic code that only initiates would understand and thus is quite distinct from the outspoken, modern type of protest song that people think of when they hear the term.

The fact is the interpretation of the criteria that go to make up a protest song are all over the place in this article. 96.250.131.236 (talk) 05:40, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

A.L. Lloyd was a great guy, but the notion that "Cutty Wren" is a protest songa about the peasant revolt of 1385 is just speculation. It's a good story, but Lloyd never provided any evidence for his assertion and neither has anyone else been able to. I think I read that he even finally admitted to having made the whole thing up. Just think about it, the English spoken in the 1300s at the time of the Peasants' Revolt was entirely different from the English lyrics of "Cutty Wren". Also, this song has never been traced back earlier than 1744. On the other hand, there is some evidence that the song is about something else. It has been connected to alms-seeking rituals that were still current in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries in various parts of rural Britain. See the discussion page of Mudcat cafe.

Protest songs concerning alienation

• "At Seventeen" Janis Ian
• "Beautiful People" Melanie
• "The Boxer" Simon and Garfunkel
• "I am a Rock" Simon and Garfunkel
• "Insanity" Oingo Boingo
• "Losing My Religion" R.E.M.
• "Rocky Top"
• "The Sound of Silence" Simon and Garfunkel
• "Subdivisions" Rush
• "What the World Needs Now" Dionne Warwick

Um, take a look at the songs, please. I think I would categorize "Insanity" and "Subdivisions" as solidly protest songs. I'm not too sure about the others. I think that alienation is perhaps not quite the label that these songs should have - perhaps we need another. These are songs that reflect cultural dissonance and I tend to think that alienation is an appropriate synonym. See my note above about "Zeitgeist". Cultural rot might also be a category name, but that seems too judgmental to me. Brian Rock 04:26, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

From what I can tell from the lyrics of "Insanity", one stanza in particular seems to express dissatisfaction with the hypocrisy of Christian moral leadership, but most of it seems to be very personal, talking to someone (I’d love to hear you laugh tonight, I’d love to hear you weep / I’d love to listen to you while you’re screaming in your sleep). "Subdivisions" seems to express dissatisfaction with suburban life, but the tone seems to be that of remembrance of childhood events. I would say that these songs might be considered protest songs, but they're not "solidly" protest songs. Actually, as you can see from my first post above, I'm pretty dissatisfied with the whole page. What do you think to leaving maybe 10 or 15 very good examples of protest songs on this page and making a seperate page (maybe List of protest songs) for this gigantic list? --The demiurge 05:55, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I personally think that would be reasonable - the "List of" articles are well-established in Wikipedia - but I think it has the potential to start a war among those who don't agree. I'm personally rather risk-averse to such moves, but being bold is what we're supposed to be about. If you want, give it a shot and see what happens. Good luck! Brian Rock 10:16, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Changes of Jan 21, 2006

The change history of this article of the last 6 months is sad. There are more disimprovements than improvements. Here's what I deleted or changed:

"including [[punk rock]] and [[Hip hop music|hip hop]]"

Already included in "all genres of music".

"and their supporters"

What is gained by adding this?

"and, to a lesser extent, to the end of it with the works ..."

This is clumsy, and we don't need to list groups that only fit to a lesser extent. There are already enough in the list. (On second thought: Well, maybe not. But I added a link to Category:Musical activists - that should provide what's needed.)

"La Nueva Cancion"

The long text here is inappropriate in an overview like this. This should be merged with the existing page Nueva canción. I'll add it on that talk page for now.

"For examples of many different types of protest songs, see "

This is unnecessary. What else would one expect at List of protest songs?

"[[Category:Anti-war songs]]"

Both that category and this article are already in Category:Protest songs - there's no reason to add the article to both. If anything, I'd like it to be part of Category:songs again, because now there are two steps in between this article and that category.

Common Man 02:59, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Too short!

This is too short. I'd like to see more in depth discussion on this big topic. Totnesmartin 15:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Too short and not detailed enough - 60's protest songs is a topic complex and big enough to warrant an article in itself (not only a more significant listing of songs and artists, but also sociological and cultural relevance, historic events such as the March on Washington etc.). Also the recent slew of anti-Iraqi war protest songs (Brights eyes' "When the President Talks to God", Devendra Banhart's "Heard Somebody Say" etc.) deserve more detailed and sensitive treatment as well.

i think we should try to agree on what format this article should take - sub-divided by theme (anti-war, pro-human rights, equality, anti-tourism [as mentioned above - legitimate i think]; or by decade (a bit slippery but also possible), or separate articles for more in-depth treatment of the different sub-genres. at the very least it needs to be more comprehensive and more historical/sociological in order for it to be an article of relevance to its subject Warchef 07:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Billy Bragg

As the summary of 1980's protest music consisted of only one song, I decided to add a sentence about Billy Bragg just to expand it a bit and hopefully get the ball rolling on adding more 1980's protest singers - in Britain in particular there were alot. Bruce Springsteen's "Born in the USA" springs to mind as well.Warchef 07:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, I also added a small piece about the anti-Reagan protest songs in the mainstream in America that existed simultaneously to Bragg's anti-Thatcherisms in Britain - but it's really just a footnote so that there is at least SOMETHING in the article about it - is anybody interested in helping me to expand this? Warchef 12:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Anti-liberal protest songs

For the sake of completion and in order to not be biased I'm sure we need to dedicate a paragraph at least to anti-liberal protest songs; which have certainly been increasing in number since the Iraq War. However, it's a subject that I know practically nothing about, so perhaps someone who is a little more knowledgeable of the genre could add a piece? Maybe in the 21st century paragraph? Warchef 13:05, 28 June 2007 (UTC) - I think the "criticism" section needs work. It lacks references, and appears to be a single person's opinion. It is also poorly written. "disapprovement...." Come on! Surely we can do better than this.

There is a big conceptual confusion here between protest songs and topical songs. How can a song in support of the US government's policies in Iraq be considered a "protest song??"96.250.24.191 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 01:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Pro War Section

This section doesn't belong in this article. A more appropriate counterbalance would be criticisms about protest songs. I'll rename the current section and take out the parts that don't belong here. 134.53.176.203 21:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Cool - I see your point, duly noted. However, there is more to the issue, and if the article is ever going to be more comprehensive and incorporate the sociological relevance and struggle of the protest song - and move away from a simple list of periods and popular songs - counterbalance is crucial. I think there is a case for presenting the opposite side of the coin in the name of being balanced and comprehensive, and in giving perspective - however i do agree with you that the section wasn't quite right. I'll look into more concrete criticisms of protest songs for now and perhaps just link to a pro-war songs wiki page (if indeed such a thing exists? I know I'm not the one to start such a thing). Cheers for your excellent contributions by the way.Warchef 22:46, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

headliner

"Some of the most internationally famous examples of protest songs come from the U.S. They include "We Shall Overcome" (a song popular in the labor movement and later the Civil Rights movement), Bob Dylan's "Blowin' in the Wind and Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On". Protest songs are generally associated with folk music, but more recently they have been produced in all genres of music."

I think this part should be removed. Maybe that sentence runs for the english speaking world, but there are a lot of songs that have the same or more recognition than those around the world and are far away of being from the United States. Maybe no protest song or country can have the "famous example" label on it. And definetively no country can have the label of "world protest song maker", every country has an incredible amount of culture that should be respected.--Bauta (talk) 17:14, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The article is very biased towards USA and UK, however I've contributed alot to it and this is my realm of knowledge - to tell you the truth I've been very disappointed by the lack of contribution on this article by people from different countries who can speak with more authority than I on their country's tradition of protest music. I have added some sections on Irish, German, Chilean, Cuban and South African protest songs; but as I don't know much about these traditions off hand, that has included alot of research, which I only have the time to do every now and then. If you can help to expand these sections or add new sections on the protest songs of other cultures to help improve the article please do.

As regards the headliner i see two options, either we leave it as it is and append something to the effect of "as well as many key figures from other countries, such as Victor Jara in Latin America, Silvio Rodríguez in Cuba and Vuyisile Mini in anti-apartheid South Africa" - with the hope that when the article gets more international contribution, this headliner will grow along with it. the second option is just to delete the whole line, but i'm for the first option, as while it is admittedly biased, it's still pertinent to mention songs like Blowing in the Wind or We Shall Overcome in the headliner to an article about Protest songs. so i'm for expanding and against deleting. any thoughts? peace Warchef (talk) 17:36, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Missing artists/genres/songs

This whole entry desperately needs a major section on Reggae music, I find it hard to believe the word Reggae appears only once in the whole entry, and only in passingly referring to a A reggae band from New Zealand.

Eddy Grant - Gimme Hope Jo'anna needs to be mentioned somewhere here... Midnight Oil really should be aswell

How about U2 ("Bullet the Blue Sky", "Sunday Bloody Sunday"), I know they write about a lot of different topics, but they are arguably the biggest band of the last 30 years, and activism has always been a major part of their music. Also, what about anti-war metal from the 80s and beyond (i.e Slayer "Reign in Blood", Metallica "And Justice for All") TuesdayMush (talk) 19:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

U2 are already included- although perhaps not in depth enough- in the Irish section. I agree about Eddy Grant and Midnight Oil- as soon as I find a good source on them I'll add them, if you haven't added them yourself by then. I don't know much about 80s metal protest songs, but I'd love to see your contribution in this area, if you have the time. thanks alot for the suggestions - anything else missing?Warchef (talk) 21:15, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

hey, What about Arlo Guthrie with songs like Alices resteraunt which are all about ending the Vietnam war, or Guns 'n' Roses's "Civil war"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.45.98 (talk) 23:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

"Alice's Restaurant" is already included, near the end of the 60's-70's section.--Edgewise (talk) 01:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to see Pulp (especially all the songs from Different Class) included in the UK section, and also the Manic Street Preachers. --Redcore4 (talk) 14:16, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Germany section

The Germany section is pretty bad. I am German born and I kinda know that a) there is more than Deutschpunk and b) most Deutschpunk was no protest music at least not more than punk in general. Bands or songs that should be mentioned on the other hand are Ton Steine Scherben (THE German protest song band in the late 60s/early 70s) and the Scorpions perestroyka hymn "wind of change". Nena's "99 Luftballons" should in no case be removed but maybe it could be added that radio stations frequently cut the last verse and by that most of the song's criticism... It could also be argued that there should be a hint to the Krautrock movement which was protest and a typically German thing.

The most important thing to be mentioned (next to Ton Steine Scherben) would be however the German Liedermacher (songwriters) like Reinhard Mey, Hannes Wader, Heiner Lauterbach or more historically Ernst Busch and composer Kurt Weill. Songs that could be mentioned are "Einheitsfrontlied", "Roter Wedding", "Resolution der Kommunarden" or "Der heimliche Aufmarsch". A protest song from the ecologist movement with significant success in the early 80s was "Karl der Käfer" by Gänsehaut.

I could update this section but I don't want to delete everything that's written (however I think it's bad) without any precursor discussion. --190.21.31.146 (talk) 06:11, 22 February 2008 (UTC) (log in not at hand by now, janvanbasten)

Please feel free to remove and add anything you want to improve it. I agree it's bad, but till now we haven't had anyone come along with much knowledge on the subject. I'll try to help you if I can, but it seems you know alot about the subject, and I look forward to seeing your improvements :) Warchef (talk) 09:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

To help you get started I copied over some info from the Ton Steine Scherben page, but as I don't know much about them I'll let you decide what's relevant from that info and what can be improved. Also, it would be great to get more insight into individual songs if at all possible. cheers! Warchef (talk) 09:20, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Wind of Change? You gotta be kidding. What they are protesting against with Wind of Change? This is support song, not protest one. Netrat_msk (talk) 13:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

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The picture of Bob Dylan with Joan Baez has a hyperlink to Joan Baez's page but not one for Bob Dylans's page. We should put one on his name. Saulcon (talk) 00:00, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

North American Bias

This article is biased- almost completely ignoring the fact that protest balladeering is an English invention- the oldest surviving arguable protest song being "Robyn Hode and Gamylyne"- surviving in print from 1350. It also completely ignores Reggae music.

Thus, this article contradicts many other Wiki article that predate this particular article. Please rectify the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.161.141.44 (talk) 12:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I think more important than a lack of mention of origins is simply the americentricity of the examples and section headings. There's no mention of, for example, the anti-Falklands conflict song "Ship Building", or Dire Straits' "Brothers in Arms". 82.14.78.14 (talk) 15:24, 4 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.14.78.14 (talk) 15:21, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect information

Many of the arists listed under the US section are actually Canadians. For example, Neil Young (from Toronto/Winnipeg), The Guess Who (from Winnipeg), and Arcade Fire (from Montréal). Although a seperate section for them is unnessesary, seeing as they are protesting American issues, I think that they deserve to be recognised as Canadians. Maybe the first time they're mentionned, say "the Canadian artist, so and so, did..." — Anatolnerd (talk) 01:24, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Also Bruce Cockburn. (And his song "If I had a rocket launcher" had more impact than "Nicaragua" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.58.158.222 (talk) 23:23, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Bulat Okudzhava fought in the war?

I think this is the way to brave to say that Bulat actually fought in the war. According to his interview his role as a soldier in WWII was very limited. In fact, he never engaged in any real combat. So the line should be changed somehow, maybe to "participated in war" or something like that. Alternatively, it can be totally removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.46.182.238 (talk) 16:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC) The Russian part is written in worst fathomable engrish and is entirely devoted to petty disputes about things completely oblivious and irrelevant to the uninitiated reader.79.216.201.107 (talk) 05:40, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Tom Waits

I removed the mention of "Hoist That Rag" in a paragraph concerning Tom Waits. That's the second time I see "Hoist That Rag" mentioned as a "political song" - could anybody explain what's so political in the song's lyrics? I've listened to the song many times and still haven't noticed anything that might allude to the Iraq war. MichalKotowski (talk) 18:28, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

"You know what to do when the baby cries - hoist that rag!"

The song is about placating angry or disgruntled people with empty patriotism and flag-waving (the "rag" of course is the American flag - or perhaps any flag, the song's not specific - which is raised when "the baby cries" - i.e. when the people start to complain). And the result of empty patriotism is often support for a war that people later regret - as in the last verse of the song - "So just open fire / As you hit the shore / All is fair in love and war - hoist that rag"

I hope that was helpful in some way. I saw waits on his most recent European tour and hoist that rag was by far the highlight, such an amazing song. I haven't re-added the song to the article, i'll wait and see if i can find a source. peace Warchef (talk) 06:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The song makes heavy references to the American Civil War draft riots of New York City, even mentioning gang members by name and recounting the theft of a church bell. Its primary subject matter certainly isn't a contemporary war, so it may not qualify as a protest song. It was correct to remove it. [I've never found somewhere on Wikipedia where I could actually contribute - I hope this comment is in the correct place.] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.54.58.245 (talk) 05:39, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Here's a fresh look and criticism of the page

The article is far too expansive. Not every complaint wedged into a song qualifies. I think that if the recent additions are reverted to some point by User:Epson291 (or before) editing might begin from there, but the comment that every protest song is spawned by a movement? Sometimes, the movement might result from one. Pete Seeger singing a song from back in 1804; one, "Peg and Awl" was about the industrial revolution and the ways it affected the lives of people who once were secure in traditional job positions. Woody Guthrie, Leadbelly, and Pete Seeger should be strongly included from the first.

What is being protested? Examples? Fights for Labor Unions, those protesting what is promised them legally, but never appears, as in the Great Depression and the Okies. Protests about Wars, and The Draft, Bob Dylan, and topics that are so universal, as in Military Juntas and torture (as with Victor Jara's songs being covered by Seeger and Arlo Guthrie). Songs about the human condition, Civil Rights. What of the song written by Meerpol, for Billie Holliday, Strange Fruit, about hanging black men in the south? Phil Ochs, Joan Baez, Jackson Brown's song "Lives in the Balance" comes to mind- especially now[2].

Even CSNY, Stephen Stills, in the 1960s, "For What It's Worth", and Neil Young galvanizing CSNY to tour with "Looking for a Leader". Maybe a work group is in order. --leahtwosaints (talk) 23:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Sources

There is a dearth of reputable academic sources in this article. Many footnotes refer to "Gary McGrath's Libertarian Blog Page", the Cato Institute, and similar blogs and outlets. While I don't object such citations per se, myself, they do have an acknowledged POV, and their presence in the absence of what Wikipedia considers reputable academic sources thus does constitute a poor practice according to Wikipedia's guidelines.

I think the article would be improved if works like Ronnie Lieberman's "My Song Is My Weapon" People's Songs; American Communism; and the Politics of Culture 1930-50 (Urbana and Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 1995)and Ron Ayerman and Andrew Jamison's Music and Social Movements: Mobilizing Tradition in the Twentieth Century (Cambridge, UK, Cambridge University Press, 1998) were referred to in the article.96.250.131.236 (talk) 19:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree 100%, however i don't have access to any of those books, as i live in vienna and it's not too likely that the library would have them. if you yourself own copies of them it would be fantastic if you could add some references and perhaps even some quotes. if you're short on time, you could even just leave them here in a big pile on the talk page and i'll try find the time to integrate them for you. cheers ;) Warchef (talk) 19:44, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

These books are widely available.Mballen (talk) 23:52, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Paul Robeson

Are there any references that confirm that the concerts Robeson played following the HUAC incident were specifically protest songs? Otherwise, I'm not sure why Robeson is in this article. There were many people unfairly persecuted by HUAC, but that of itself does not make them relevant to an article about protest songs.--Edgewise (talk) 20:14, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

There's the recording of Paul Robeson The Peace Arch Concerts (link), recorded at the the event mentioned in the article. If you look at the list of songs, you will see that Robeson performs "Joe Hill", which is a protest song if there ever was a protest song. The "notes" at the external link previously provided state the following: "In the early fifties, forbidden by the U.S. government to travel abroad - even to Canada - Paul Robeson appeared at the Peace Arch Park on the U.S. and Canadian border and sang and spoke to 30,000-40,000 people, proving to the world that his voice and his beliefs could not be stifled." Leepaxton (talk) 07:59, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't have time to edit them in now, but here's some raw material that we can work with:

"In 1928 [Robeson] was added to the cast of Jerome Kern and Oscar Hammerstein II's Show Boat, beginning his indelible association with the pseudo-spiritual "Ol' Man River," originally a cry of resignation that he eventually reformed in concert as a defiant protest song. [...] As early as 1933 Robeson had become involved with leftist organizations and causes, and his direct involvement with international politics intensified as he continued to act, sing, and make films. Traveling extensively in the late 1930s, Robeson supported the Republicans in Spain fighting Franco's Fascists, sang for dozens of working-class organizations, denounced racial discrimination in every form, and regularly defended the Soviet Union, even after the Nazi-Soviet Pact in 1939." http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_g1epc/is_bio/ai_2419201022

"... But Robeson wasn't content to just sing the words of the song. He changed them where he thought it appropriate, and turned "Ol' Man River" into a kind of protest song. Thus "I'm tired of living and scared of dying" became "I'll keep on fighting until I'm dying." [...] "Other people have done great things in music, but he was involved in film, dramatics, the labor movement, and in championing the causes of oppressed people around the world. Because he was a public figure, people listened to what he said. I'd compare him to Dr. Martin Luther King."- Roger Cooper http://www.will.uiuc.edu/fm/programs/classicallyblack/cbrobeson.htm

I think at least his version of Ol'Man River deserves to be in the article, and mention of his activism, and the HUAC stuff briefly (perhaps even as a footnote). I wish I had some stronger sources, but I guess it's ok for now Warchef (talk) 21:39, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

NPOV?

"the United States, a country founded on the basis of Enlightenment ideals of human betterment and which had known continuous social movements since its inception, as new and diverse groups and ideals were successively absorbed into the social fabric"

This sentence sounds a bit POV to me... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chanology (talk • contribs) 01:45, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

The Age of Enlightenment or simply The Enlightenment is a term used to describe a time in Western philosophy and cultural life centered upon the eighteenth century, in which reason was advocated as the primary source and legitimacy for authority.

Developing more or less simultaneously in Germany, France, Britain, the Netherlands, Italy, Spain, and Portugal the movement spread through much of Europe, including the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Russia and Scandinavia as well as in America. It could be argued that the signatories of the American Declaration of Independence, the United States Bill of Rights, the French Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, and the Polish-Lithuanian Constitution of May 3, 1791, were motivated by "Enlightenment" principles.

The American Enlightenment is a term sometimes employed to describe the intellectual culture of the British North American colonies and the early United States (as they became known following the American Revolution). It was a part of a larger intellectual movement known as the Age of Enlightenment. Influenced by the scientific revolution of the 17th century, the Enlightenment took scientific reasoning and applied it to human nature and society. There was a shift from God-centered thinking to human being centered. Instead of going through life unhappy and thinking they had to suffer so they could enjoy the afterlife - people began to think about what they could accomplish on earth.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.77.111.92 (talk) 04:57, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Israeli protest music

Another editor objected to the text in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Music_of_Israel#Israeli_protest_music

I have made these corrections before, but they keep cropping up. If someone wants to restore these statements, please discuss it first on the talk page.

• Shir HaShalom was never banned from the state radio, and it is hardly subversive. It was written by Yankele Rosenblatt for the Lahakat Hanahal (one of the military performance groups) in 1969, and was performed extensively before audiences of soldiers. It quickly became a popular hit throughout the country.

• The statement "protest songs became a major avenue for opposition activists to express sentiments that were otherwise excluded from the public debate by various mechanisms of censorship" is interesting but completely incorrect. Is the author suggesting that there is some censorship mechanism in Israel limiting public debate, that does not apply to music? Interesting, since previous edits have suggested just the opposite - that music is censored more than other forms of debate.

There is no official censor in Israel charged with the limiting of opinions, and such an act of censorship would be a violation of Israeli constitutional law. There is a military censor, whose sole authority is to prohibit the publication of military secrets, the most controversial one being information regarding Israel's nuclear capabilities. The Emergency act of the British Mandate of 1945 remains formally on the books, but has not been invoked by the government for at least 30 years.

If someone is aware of political opinions that have been denied expression in Israel's press, please tell me about them.

Incidentally, all of the singers cited in the last paragraph (Ariel Zilber, Shalom Flisser, Aharon Razel, Eli Bar-Yahalom, Yuri Lipmanovich, Ari Ben-Yam) are right wingers whose music reflects their opposition to Israeli withdrawal, limitations on Jewish settlements, and compromise with the Arabs. Is the author suggesting that it is these right-wing views that are censored by these unknown authorities?

I copied text from this article and I don't have any relation with the content, let alone the two articles' history. In the meantime others may review editor's changes and discuss about it. If I have time I will check editor's arguments if they are true or not, then we can talk. I have no objections currently, after a search I may have. Kasaalan (talk) 15:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Comments about the whole thing

Hi, I have noticed that, aside from the American folk songs, blues, and protest songs of all kinds, there isn't enough real coverage of songs from other countries. For those detractors of Pete Seeger, I want to say he really was the most noticable person who popularized the music of so many others-- from Ledbelly, Woody Guthrie (and his own compositions), to that of Victor Jara. Anyway, I've put some additions into the text which appears to have several good editors handling it. I was just surprised to find that Jara was the only "real" South American artist to have gained such exposure, and the complete lack of consideration for Bob Marley's compositions was confusing. Feel free to move anything I placed here. My mother was an ethnomusicologist and a multi-instrumentalist, so I was fortunate to learn first-hand about protest songs. She knew many of the American musicians listed here in the 1960s-70s. Thanks. --Leahtwosaints (talk) 14:25, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Víctor Jara.

In the Latin American sub-heading, it states that "the stadium where Victor died, now bears his name." This is not true. Victor was taken to Estadio National (National Stadium), and that is where he met his demise, but to this day, it is still named Estadio National. The Victor Jara Stadium is in another part of Santiago. Could someone please correct this? 190.164.160.26 (talk) 14:32, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Various topics

- There should be made a clear distiction between protest songs and political songs. Is the International a protest song when sung by workers on strike? - One could also add a section on subaltern consciousness and songs created therefrom. - There should be more on the gender issue, especially in Third World countries ("Third World" is a term coined by Jawaharlal Nehru and therefore politically correct). - Prayers can be used as protest songs. This is known from early Protestantism, pre-Meiji Japan, colonial Mexico, the USSR and the GDR. - GDR: e.g. Wolf Biermann (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhszn6tucjA&). - There are a number of songs from the Peasants' War in 16th century Germany and a large collection of early modern antimilitarist songs collected by the linguist and cultural anthropologist Wolfgang Steinitz (1905-1967) (Der große Steinitz – Deutsche Volkslieder demokratischen Charakters aus sechs Jahrhunderten. Reprint, Zweitausendeins, Frankfurt 1983, ISBN 3-88436-101-5). - India has a living tradition of protest songs reaching back a long time before colonial times, often as orally transmitted pieces from folk theatre. For colonial and recent songs check esp. sources in Tamil and Bangla. - Ireland is a nice example, but not sufficent. In the context of colonial rule and national movements even a song such as Vande Mataram should at least be mentioned here. - Robert Burns (A Man’s A Man for A' That) wan an initiator of protest songs all over Europe, from the revolutions of 1830 and 48 to Wolf Biermann and others in the 1970s.

so much for now GB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.165.175.18 (talk) 22:05, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

The introduction does state (or does try to convey) that context plays a powerful role in helping determine what is a protest song. And R. Serge Denisoff does include Protestant hymns (not by accident are they so called) as protest songs because they arose from the grass-roots and thus meet the criteria of helping to consolidate a mass movement. (Obviously they are now mainstream, however, and have lost the aura of protest they initially had). Apparently John Greenway's, American Folksongs of Protest (1960) recounts that the Wobblies modeled their union-organizing songs on hymns in an effort to drown out the hymn singing of the Salvation Army, but I don't have this book handy and it's out of print, so I've refrained from citing it. Also, it is interesting that Carl Sandburg went to visit the Socialist Eugene Debs on his deathbed and this was paralleled by Bob Dylan's going to visit the dying Woody Guthrie (I think that's in Eyerman). But there seems to have been a desire here to avoid discussion the role of folk music and the Popular Front. In was in the period of the Popular Front and the Almanac Singers and Woodie Guthrie that all folk music came to be associated with protest, in that that it was felt to express a grass roots point of view. And Michael Denning (in his The Cultural Front) believes that there were two grass roots points of view duking it out in the 1930s and 40s, an exclusionary nationalistic nativist racist one, and a more inclusive one associated primarily with the CIO that opposed it made up of liberals, progressives, socialists and Commununists, known as the popular front. After the war this coalition fell apart, but Denning feels it left an enduring imprint on our culture.

As far as the a distinction between political songs and protest songs, what you need to do is find a source that makes this distinction and describe what criteria they use in making it, since Wikipedia essays are not supposed to be original research but need to be backed by verifiable sources. Folklorists draw a similar distinction between what they call songs of complaint, which are common in all periods, and arguably help people endure oppressive conditions without calling for change, and songs that do actually advocate change, which, except in certain periods, are rare. Most popular art does not call for change, as doing so is usually dangerous and highly unpopular except in certain unusual periods of history. I do agree with you about Robert Burns' "A Man's a Man", a song that expressed Enlightenment ideals of equality.

I myself agree with some of the other posters who feel it is not useful to have interminable open-ended lists of the titles of protest or purported protest songs, but would be preferable instead the to mention only the best-known and most representative examples.Mballen (talk) 04:22, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Stalin's Songbird

I removed this because it is false:

In fact, an article written in 2006 by an official of the American libertarian Cato Institute reported that in the early years of World War II, political opponents had referred to Seeger as "Stalin's Songbird."

Detractors of Seeger in 1941 (namely Karl Joachim Friedrich of the Atlantic) did not refer to Seeger as "Stalin's Songbird" as stated here. "Stalin's Songbird" was the headline given to the Boaz's 1996 article by an editor of the Guardian in 1996. The issue is covered in the wikipedia article on the Almanac Singers and Pete Seeger.

Note:

Mballen (talk) 07:02, 22 August 2010 (UTC) Mballen (talk) 07:02, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Question about the talk about Vietnam protest songs and artists

Am i blind or can i just not read? the name John Lennon never comes up in the article. Which is very weird seeing that the US Goverment tried everything they could do throw him out of the country for beeing active against the war. He wrote propably more anti vietnam war songs than any other musician and still he is not even talked about in this. I'm not gona do a list or anything of his protest songs the writers can maybe type www.wikipedia.org and check out John Lennon if they don't know who is which is funny if they don't and are writing a vietnam song/artists article.

sorry about my english i'm from Iceland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jongudni (talk • contribs) 02:21, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again

In section 2.1 it says:

"Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye" from Ireland, and its American variant, "When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again"

Isn't it the other way around? It seems fairly obvious that I Hardly Knew Ye is a kind of very bitter parody of the kind of cheerful militarism Marching Home Again displays. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.57.33.249 (talk) 05:06, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

wp:v

This article has been tagged, and its content challenged, since January 2011 for content within it failing to meet wp:v. Please read wp:burden before restoring an material; an inline cite is required in such cases.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:08, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Before we get into it, lets start with checking the basics. I'm seeing that you knocked out sentences or paragraphs in 12 places in the article, and that only one of the 12 was tagged. (And a top level tag put on the article in June 2013.) And no discussions of or challenging of content.......in fact no posts to the talk page since 2011. Are you saying that all of them were tagged? And are you saying that some or all of those 12 areas of content was challenged? North8000 (talk) 19:09, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

• First -- please do not refactor what other editors write on talk pages. You did that in the title above. That's not appropriate.

Second, the entire page was tagged. The purposed of such a tag is that it refers to all text in the page that suffers from the malady -- here, a failure to meet wp:v. There is simply no requirement that each and every failure be tagged. The tag states, clearly: "This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed." I'm now seeing, as you say, that the tag was placed four months ago. Since then, it appears nobody has addressed the failure to meet wp:v. Just to be clear -- such a tag applies to the entire page. There is simply no need, as you suggest, to tag each individual failure. That's simply not the case. Even the tag is a courtesy -- not a requirement. Nor is there any requirement -- after an editor(s) add material that fails to comply with wp:v, that another editor in addition to tagging for the malady, with the above language, engage in further talk page mention of precisely what he has already said in the tag on the page itself. And the tagging is a challenging of the content, as is the removal of the content months later. Please read wp:burden -- this material was challenged months ago, neither you nor any other editor chose to discuss it -- or to remedy the problem and months later it was removed in accord with the quite clear language of the tag, in accord with wp:v, and you then restored it without appropriate inline citations, in direct conflict with wp:burden. The burden, if you are partial to the text, is on you to restore it in accord with wp:burden.Epeefleche (talk) 20:36, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

It is entirely appropriate to fix an inappropriate title for a section. That is not "refactoring". Second, you still clarified / supported your your assertion that it was tagged since 2011. Third, under normal practices, a general article level tag is not sufficient grounds for mass deletion of what is uncontested and mostly "sky is blue" material. North8000 (talk) 23:35, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I started the section. The section I started is about wp:v. That's the title I gave it. You deleted what I wrote. On a talk page. That's refactoring. That's impermissible. Please stop it. Please take this as a final warning -- we don't need a template, I would think. If you want to start a separate section with some other title -- go ahead. Don't refactor what I write on a talkpage.

2. It's been tagged for months, as you indicate.

3. A general article tag is precisely for circumstances such as this, where much of the article is uncited. Why else do you think such a tag is used? Of course this is precisely the sort of situation that calls for it. And, as you know from wp:v, no tag was even necessary in the first place. It could all be deleted without being tagged. And without waiting months. And you are simply making things up, without reading wp:burden -- if you want to restore any of the deleted material, feel free to do so in accord with wp:burden, by supplying appropriate inline citations. This is not a playground for people to input completely unsourced material, utter OR, BLP info, and then complain that they were only given four months to fix it (and didn't), and that they in their subjective opinion think it is "sky is blue" information -- which I assume you mean everyone knows ... and if everyone knows it, it should be easy to provide an inline citation, and it raises a question why we need to even reflect it, as the purpose of the project is to inform people as to what they don't know. If you don't like wp:v, fine -- you're free to seek to change it. But it is pretty clear, and you've been paid the courtesy of months' notice to fix this. Please don't again restore, as you did, material in violation of wp:burden.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:24, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Despite your poor and unusual behavior here, I will note that about 1/2 of the deleted material does contain some type of statement or assertion that should be sourced or removed if not sourced. On the "sky is blue" stuff, such as the statement of existence of a song/recording and it's theme, I'm not going to spend the time to get your bad behavior overruled, (or getting sourcing that says the obvious, that the recording existed) so congratulations on your success at damaging Wikipedia. North8000 (talk) 12:13, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

I'll ignore the ad hominem aspects of your note. I'm abiding by wp:v. You -- accusing me of poor and unusual behavior -- in direct violation of wp:burden -- appear to think that your behavior was beyond reproach when you restored wholly uncited material that had been input without refs, flagged and challenged months ago for that malady, and then finally deleted due to failure to comply with wp:v and failure to fix the malady in reaction to the tag. WP:v is there for a reason. You may think that because you know x to be true, even if it is challenged, and tagged months ago, it does not need a ref. That's not how the Project is built -- it deprives readers of a ref, which would indicate quickly with one click if an RS is being relied upon for the assertion ... and though you may know that the theme of song x is y, and you may know that that wasn't a concoction of some 12-year-old vandal, you can't presume that the reader knows it and by restoring such material without a ref you open the floodgates for such vandalism. I don't think that is helping the Project. And I do think it is a violation of wp:burden. We've both been here long enough that obviously we care about the project. I just happen to agree with wp:burden, and lack your faith that a reader can know which statement is "sky is blue," and which is vandalism, if you restore those statements without refs.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:51, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

I think we both conveyed our thoughts and we agree on many things and disagree on a few things (and regarding wp:ver in relation to the deletions only in a matter of degree....you make good points) Per above I plan nothing further on this. Peace and the best to you. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:58, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. And I know you to be an excellent editor, and regret that we had a kerfluffle. Please note, btw, that the article still has a great deal of OR, and subjective editor opinions ("know for," "best known for," and similar statements), and uncited challenged material. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:30, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry that I wrote too roughly. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:58, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

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Fragments

People seem to have been removing random pieces of text all over the article, because there are sentence fragments just about everywhere... - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 15:43, 6 August 2019 (UTC)