Talk:Progressive pop/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: MarioSoulTruthFan (talk · contribs) 01:58, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

I will take this one, since I hope to find more information regarding this genre. However, I have to warn you that a full review might take 2/3 weeks if you don't mind of course. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 01:58, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Infobox

• This needs to be on the body of the article "Cultural origins:United States and United Kingdom".

 Done

Lead

• changes in key and rhythm, experiments with larger forms, and unexpected, disruptive, or ironic treatments of past conventions. → needs examples.

• I think that would look strange to cite specific works/artists in the lead unless they were particularly significant (WP:PROPORTION, WP:NAMEDROPS). --Ilovetopaint (talk) 22:14, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

 Done

Definition

• The premise involved popular music that was created for the intention of listening, not dancing → stats otherwise, also dancing.

• Full quote on p.187: "Progressive music is no longer functiunal - its audeince goes to listen attentively, not to dance. Most important, unlike all previous popular music, it concerns itself with musical development, and not with the statement or repetition of a theme."--Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:40, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Read on page 199. So the book has two different opinions regarding the same subject?

• and opposed the influence of managers, agents, or record companies → the closest I find is that Vulliamy and Lee criticized the exploration and profit of it, they don'y state who made "money" with it.

• Also on p.187 - except it refers to rock music. However, there is a footnote clarifying that "rock music" equates to "progressive pop".--Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:40, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

• "meant for a wide audience but which is intended to have more permanent value than the six weeks in the charts and the 'forget it' music of older pop form" → use your own words as most as you can.
• I have concerns regarding that sample. See WP:SAMPLE.

• Considering how important the Beatles are to the subject, why?--Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:40, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

See what I posted and read below by the way. Sample needs to be reduced, see the wiki page above.

• playing with them ironically, disrupting them, or producing shadows of them in new and unexpected forms → examples? Refrence 12 seems to have some.

• There is one example in the article, "Penny Lane". He mentions others, but I don't believe they are particularly good, so I located them in a footnote.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 22:17, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

 Done

History

1960s: Origins

• Once again concerns with the sample.
• Beatles, Cream, Love, the Mothers of Invention, Pink Floyd and Soft Machine, while "Modern", the next category, comprised the Byrds, Donovan and the Small Faces → so wouldn't all of these also be progressive pop?

• Implicitly yes, explicitly no. Can't call them "progressive pop" unless the source unequivocally says so. "Best practice is to research the most reliable sources on the topic and summarize what they say in your own words, with each statement in the article attributable to a source that makes that statement explicitly. [...] Take care not to go beyond what is expressed in the sources" (WP:STICKTOSOURCE).--Ilovetopaint (talk) 22:22, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

 Done

1960s–70s

• "instantly getting labelled as pretentious, and at the same time garbage was being pushed into the charts ... Anybody that was any good ... was more or less becoming insignificant again. ... There was a lot of psychedelic bullshit going on." → use more your own words.
• "In ten years, its practitioners will probably be called by another name entirely, electric music or something, and they'll relate to pop the way that art movies relate to Hollywood." → same as previous, this quotes shouldn't be so long if you can say them in your own words.
• "had guessed that progressive pop would shrink to a minority cult and it hasn't. Well, in England, I wasn't entirely wrong ... But, in America, I fluffed completely – the Woodstock nation has kept growing and, for all his seriousness and pretensions to poetry, someone like James Taylor has achieved the same mass appeal as earlier stars." → same as previous.
• Once again I have concerns regarding the sample of The Logical Song. See above.
• "pop experimentalism" → I can't find it in the source, can you point it out for me.

• "With this combination of classical grandeur and sixties pop experimentalism, the era of art rock—also called progressive rock, or simply prog rock—was ushered in during the seventies." [1]--Ilovetopaint (talk) 03:11, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

• ""From 1976 onward, orthodox progressive rock waned; that is, the sprawling moody electronic suites that had fueled FM rock radio during the early seventies disappeared, or sold poorly ... Into the void created by prog rock's misfortunes sailed a host of new, milder 'serious' bands, whose humor (Queen), pop smarts (Supertramp), and style (Roxy Music, mach two) would ensure their survival into the eighties. Stylistic descendants of the Beatles, they met the melodic requirements of AM radio while still producing thoughtful, original work. This new, leaner breed of pomp rock deserves a name – let's call it progressive pop." → no comments, same as previous.
• Could you add a more recognizable part of the "Logical Song"? MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 21:15, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

 Done

1980s–2000s

• "by the early 1980s, progressive rock was thought to be all but dead as a style, an idea reinforced by the fact that some of the principal progressive groups has developed a more commercial sound. ... What went out of the music of these now ex-progressive groups ... was any significant evocation of art music." → this quotes are too big, use your own words interpolated with the quote.
• "that art-rock bands such as Yes and Genesis "formerly toyed" with progressive pop, "but rarely brought it to satisfying completion" → same here, could have at least used the quotation marks as you just copied it blend.
• volved a conscious and brave attempt to bridge the separation between 'progressive' pop and mass/chart pop – a divide which has existed since 1967, and is also, broadly, one between boys and girls, middle-class and working-class." → same as the previous two.
• "the past few years in progressive pop ... have given rise to a series of popular and acclaimed collectives – uncommonly large bands with a disdain for clearly defined hierarchies" → same here I don't know why you use suspension points if the sentence carries on and you are no omitting any information. Also, use more your own words.

 Done

List of artists

• Source 42 also talks about Supertramp, Kraftwerk and Roxy Music. IF you put two sources for Electric Light Orchestra and XTC should also do the same for others.
• Reference 43 is already above as 41, please remove it and use the latter since they are the same.
• Todd Rundgren is also cited in reference 46.
• Reference 12 also talks about The Beatles.

• I don't think Supertramp, Kraftwerk, or Roxy Music are ever explicitly called "progressive pop" in Breithaupt. Likewise, Rundgren's Utopia is cited as 'prog-pop', but that doesn't necessarily make him prog-pop (but I do agree that he is).--Ilovetopaint (talk) 21:28, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

If the source say they re why wouldn't you add? MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 18:31, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

I would if they did.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 00:47, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

 Done

Notes

• Fine.

References

• Should have access dates of websites.
• Rename this section as Footnotes. See on Overall GA review why.
• Unlike Almanac Weekly and Team Rock.

 Done

Bibliography

• Rename this section as Sources. Done
• Some sources are missing ISBN.
• Unlike Hewitt, Paolo.  Done

Can't you find the IBSN for this "Work and Leisure: An Interdisciplinary Study in Theory, Education and Planning."? MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 21:49, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

I looked again and found one here.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 09:02, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Great. I will give it a second read and then most likely pass it. Sorry for the time it took.

Further reading

• One external link is missing ISBN.

• Can't find an ISBN for it.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 21:32, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

 Done

Overall GA review

• Big section called References with Footnotes and Sources as subsections.
• Please hold any comments or improvements until I do all the Ga review. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 01:59, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
• @Ilovetopaint: I have finished the review please address the comments. Good luck, on hold for seven days. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 21:52, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Samples The lengths of the samples are all under 30 seconds/10% of the original length, so I'm not sure what the concern is? Please explain.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 22:18, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

That's not enough. They have to be according to the length of the song. See on the list its last topic of the page I sent you. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 22:21, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, that's correct. They're all under 10% of the length.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 22:34, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Read the table. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 23:46, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Oh right, I fixed the others, but "Wouldn't It Be Nice" is a hair too long. I'll get on that now.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 00:40, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

• I think I've addressed every issue/suggestion that was raised. Please let me know if I've skipped anything.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 08:38, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

@Ilovetopaint: I left you one concern to take care of, its not mandatory but it would be nicer. And you forgot two things (minor issues).

Done--Ilovetopaint (talk) 08:02, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

@Ilovetopaint: left you another note, final one. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 20:19, 26 December 2016 (UTC)