Talk:Professional shogi player

attribution note

Most of the content the Professional players and Female professionals section originated from the Players section of the Japan Shogi Association article. It was copied from there on 2017 nov 19. – ishwar  (speak) 20:59, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

List of professional players

Was wondering is a list of current professionals is still wanted for this article. While I can see the merit of such a list, I can also see how it might be something more suited for a stand-alone list article as well. By my count there are currently 164 kishi, 56 joryu kishi and 7 LPSA pros active. Obviously, if this information is added the separate lists for male and female would be needed, but then the lists could be further divided up in any number of ways. The JSA categorizes by title holders (significance of title) and dan (date of promotion), whereas the LPSA seems to go by badge number. One advantage of a stand-alone list would be that more information could be added for each individual entry and retired/deceased pros could also be added. Hatnotes could then be added to relevant sections of this article for male and female pros.

If, however, the consensus is that this information should be included in this article, then how it should be added and how much information should be added probably would be a good thing to discuss. Once the formating has been resolved, it's basically just adding the names to the section. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:53, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

i dont know. Seems like it could be added to this article or as a separate article. Only issue i see is whether one has a preference for shorter articles (separate list article is better) or one wants the list to be more easily found (list inside the main article is better). The 2nd issue can be helped by adding lots of links to the list in other articles (like maybe adding to the See also section in every individual player's page or something?).

one thing i would like to have is all professional players in at least some list including dead folks, folks without badge numbers (some historical folks), folks that left the system for whatever reason that the JSA makes somewhat of invisible on their website (like Hayashiba). I think a list with all current players is good since that info may be needed when learning about the presentday pro scene. But, it's equally good to get a full picture of the past.

seems like wikipedia tends to put lists in separate articles in general (for better or worse). – ishwar  (speak) 18:48, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps a "List of professional shogi players" could be the article, and it then it could be broken up into various subsections to include those like Hayashiba, etc. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:52, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

new women rules

New rules for women with a point system:

https://www.shogi.or.jp/faq/joryu-kitei.html

– ishwar  (speak) 18:34, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Hayashiba, who's on first?

well, it's before the internet really. So, it will hard to find.

There is, of course, the game record showing that Hayashiba preceded Nakai. But, it's not an official game record but rather from shogidb2.com. I havent seen the TV broadcast myself, so i cant cite that. But, the game record itself doesnt say anything about being the first to beat a regular pro.

Best, i can do is this google search: https://books.google.com/books?id=xuDoAAAAIAAJ&q=林葉直子+椎橋金司&dq=林葉直子+椎橋金司&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwitndD4spfkAhUFI6wKHRJRAu4Q6AEwAHoECAAQAg It must be in this book, but you can't really see it properly since it's a 'snippet view'. So, to get it sourced, one would have to go analog and look it up in microfilm (or whatever) like you have to do for many pre-Internet things. There's a limit to armchair editing.... – ishwar  (speak) 21:29, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't necessarily think she wasn't the first; it's just hard to source. It's possible that any mentions of it in JSA records were removed given the way she left, but my guess is that it probably was an "unofficial tournament" (非公式戦). There seemed to be a lot more of them back around that time then there are these days and she was quite strong; so, her winning a preliminary round game wouldn’t be totally out of the question. FWIW, I thought about just adding a {{cn}} tag and then adding a sentence or {{efn}} about Nakai, but couldn't figure out how to make the two work together without distinguishing between "official game" and "unofficial game"; "unofficial game" sounds like "practice game", which is not the case at all.

Just curious as to who Hayashiba is supposed to beat and when the game was played. There weren't many televised games back in 1991; I think the NHK games might have been the only ones. The Gingasen didn't start to 1992, but it was an "official tournament" the first few years and I don't think it started being shown on cable until much later on. Maybe there was some sort of TV exhibition type of "battle of the sexes" match, but I don't think there's any way the JSA would consider that to be a "real" game. — Marchjuly (talk) 22:39, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

oh, i see. I assumed that 1991 was the first year of the tournament. I've seen a couple of the televised games of the year first in pirated form on YouTube. The game against Kinji Shiihashi is from 1991 June: https://shogidb2.com/games/55a0ddf0a861a0b55b2f9a7f1d753453a2ad462a (i think shogidb2 dates are weirdly off by one day usually for some reason) This agrees with that 週刊朝日 book's information in the snippet view. And, her jawiki page says so too although they give no source (as usual). There's a blog that says the same thing (but they could just be parroting the jawiki information). So, at any rate, this must be some kind of preliminary round, as you say, leading into the tournament's first year?

i can understand that they may downplay it if it's not an official game. However, i doubt that any male player would want to be the first to lose against a woman. So, seems like a clear triumph to me. I only came across in the game in the first place because Hayashiba used a rare sort of 原始袖飛車 (my term) or 初手３六歩 opening and i was looking the handful of games that started this way. I think it's cool how she experimented with these types of things that dont have josekis. – ishwar  (speak) 04:56, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

My mistake. 1992 was probably the year of the final game of Ginga #1, but the tournament actually started in 1991. The JSA's website can be confusing because they seem to randomly use 年 and 年度 on different pages. I wish they would just pick one format for all of their website. Japanese Wikipedia ends up being the same because they just mimic the JSA website. Anyway, it was almost certainly a preliminary round game and the tournament was unofficial back then; Ginga is also a quick play tournament with the preliminaries probably being only 25-30 minutes per player before byōyomi. Maybe the easiest thing would be to re-add Hayashiba as unofficial and then follow that with Nakai as official. A {{cn}} after the Hayashiba sentence and an {{efn}} could be added after the Nakai sentence to try and clarify the difference between unofficial and official game, but then a source will be needed for that. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:22, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

I was able to find a mention of Hayashiba's win in Shogi World and replaced the source that you (=Ish ishwar) added with it since it's easier to verify. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:13, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Female SHOGI Professional Momoko Kato(left) Sae Ito(right).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:36, 7 December 2019 (UTC)